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Towing Info
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YotaDave
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: Bristol


1994 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Towing Info Reply with quote

There seem to be a lot of the same questions being asked about towing being asked recently so I thought Id post up the links to the relevant information.

DFT Requirements for road legal trailers

DVLA towing information for vehcles up to 3.5tonnes

Camping and Caravan club B+E training and information

link to DfT's FAQs on towing & trailers

VOSA's quick guide to towing small trailers

Driving licence requirements

DfT's notes on A-Frames & Towing Dollies

46 Page pdf from the NTTA on safe & legal towing


For those that dont have the time to read all the info then a few points in brief:

1) Towing a vehicle over 750kgs with an unbraked A-frame IS illegal.

2) If you only have a category B licence then you may tow a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example the unladen weight on the chassis plat of my vehicle is 2600kg so that means the maximum I can tow on a category B licence is 900kgs.

3) Trailers above 3500kg MAM must have coupled brakes to the towing vehicle either vacuum or air operated from the vehicles brakes. All trailers 3500kg MAM or below can have overrun brakes, if below 750kg MAM no brakes are required. If your trailer is fitted with brakes they must work on all wheels and have an auto-reversing function.


If anyone else can come up with any other bits of info please post them here. Smile

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Last edited by YotaDave on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
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YotaDave
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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1994 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADMIN/MODS:
Would it be possible to get this stickied so the information is always easy to find?

Also as there seem to be so many questions and threads about towing and trailers it might be an idea for a new forum section?

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w3526602
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Joined: 10 Jun 2002
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Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi YotaD,

The lighter the trailer is in relation to the towcar, the better ...... does that mean safer? Safe is good!

But in your case, you cannot tow a 1000kg trailer, unless you get a lighter towcar, which by implication is less safe.

Is that what they call an anomoly?

I suggest that what should be allowed is for you to be able to drive a 3500kg car, and allowed to tow a trailer up to the unladen weight of that car, subject to the manufactures limit. Limits should be writ LARGE on both tow bar and draw bar, legible without kneeling.

What WAS sancrosanct about 3500kg .... probably too late to change it now. Why didn't they choose 2000kg, or 5000kg, or even 3673kg. Could there have ben vested interests ..... see the Transit story.

602

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trailers above 3500kg must have coupled brakes to the towing vehicle either vacuum or air operated from the vehicles brakes, all 3500kg or below trailers can have overrun brakes or if below 750kg max no brakes at al.
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w3526602
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Joined: 10 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ralph,

Yeah, I know what the law says, but why did the law makers pick on 3500kg? Similarly, why did they pick on 3500kg as the limit of a Group B driving licence?

At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.

Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?

602

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YotaDave wrote:
ADMIN/MODS:
Would it be possible to get this stickied so the information is always easy to find?

Also as there seem to be so many questions and threads about towing and trailers it might be an idea for a new forum section?


Great idea
Lets get a definitive set of info together then sticky it

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ralph
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

w3526602 wrote:
Hi Ralph,

Yeah, I know what the law says, but why did the law makers pick on 3500kg? Similarly, why did they pick on 3500kg as the limit of a Group B driving licence?

At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.

Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?

602


probably because 3500kg trailers were the limit for most non-hgv vehicles, so in previous years any body could tow to that limit prior to the 'B' class car licence.


Last edited by ralph on Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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YotaDave
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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1994 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
Great idea
Lets get a definitive set of info together then sticky it


Ok, Ive added about trailer brakes to the first post.

Any one have anything else? Useful links or information?

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andyw666
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Joined: 30 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Im going to be the pain here and say I still struggle with this "2) If you only have a category B licence then you may tow a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM." bit.

basically I own a 110 van, its 1850kg unladen, mam of 3050kg. Obviously the unladen weight would mean a reasonably large trailer, however assuming the land rover was empty even then the combination of the 2 would instantly be 3700kg, Would this fall into the 4.25 tonnes category? As theres still the ability of 1200kg to go in the land rover which in total would equal 4900kg.

obviously im never going to get close to that weight in the land rover but as its done alot on MAM not actual these days is what confuses me.

sure I cant be the only one which this bit confuses
Cheers

edit: on second thoughts is it a simple as 4250kg minus 3050kg = 1200kg which being the mam of the trailer?
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w3526602
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Andy,

There is no trade off.

If your towcar has a MGW of 3500kg, you can tow a 750kg trailer.

But if your towcar has a MGW of 3000kg, you can still only tow a 750kg trailer. NOT 1250kg.

Strangely, the way the driving licence regulations are worded, if your towcar has an unladen weight of 550kg (Citroen 2CV) you can still tow 750kg ..... I THINK ..... provided the car manufacturer hasn't said you can't, which probably means you need a very old 2CV.

But note that unless your tow car weighs more than 1500kg UNLADEN, your 750kg trailer will need brakes, and pro-rata down the scale. That means that my S1 Land Rover cannot tow an 750kg unbraked trailer, but my Disco can.

Does it make any difference to the 2CVs towing limit if you pour moulten lead into the chassis rails?

602

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norseman45
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

w3526602 wrote:


At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.

Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?

602


Later changed to 2 tons.
Yes, I am old enough to remember the 20 plates on the rear mudguard!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

norseman45 wrote:
w3526602 wrote:


At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.

Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?

602


Later changed to 2 tons.
Yes, I am old enough to remember the 20 plates on the rear mudguard!


Phhhhffff! I remember when they had to display "caution steam brakes"on the back!!.. Cool
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trailer guy
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Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Odometer: 787
Location: Hampshire


1994 Land Rover 110

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YotaDave wrote:
RichardD wrote:
Great idea
Lets get a definitive set of info together then sticky it


Ok, Ive added about trailer brakes to the first post.

Any one have anything else? Useful links or information?



link to DfT's FAQs on towing & trailers:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafe...lesfrequently4577

VOSA's quick guide to towing small trailers:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Quick%20G...rs%20Feb%2008.pdf

Driving licence requirements:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/forms/~/media/pdf/leaflets/INF30.ashx

DfT's notes on A-Frames & Towing Dollies
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafe...tsheetaframes.pdf

46 Page pdf from the NTTA on safe & legal towing:
http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/Safe&LegalTowingShort.pdf

Sheesh, I'm doing myself out of a job here.... Wink

If i can think of any other pertinent links i'll post them up. Sorry if anything's duplicated prior posts.

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YotaDave
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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1994 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks trailer guy, I was wondering when you would turn up! Smile

Added those links to the first post.

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John yota
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just giving a bump to this thread as a lot of towing questions are being asked
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sticky'd
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cornish redneck
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think im right in saying (please tell me if im wrong) but, if you dont have 'grandfather' rights and want to tow over the new 3.5t limit this can be achieved by the 'young' driver being accompanied by a 'grandfather' passenger with 'L' plates on the vehicle.
im only 28 with no towing rights driving lwb shogun so i cant really tow any sort of trailer unless its very very small!!
something else that im sure ive read somewhere, again if im wrong please correct me, if you use a 2wd vehicle you can tow 1.5 times the towing vehicles weight but if you use a 4wd vehicle it goes up to 2 times the towing vehicles weight.
can anyone verify the last statement please.

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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cornish redneck wrote:
i think im right in saying (please tell me if im wrong) but, if you dont have 'grandfather' rights and want to tow over the new 3.5t limit this can be achieved by the 'young' driver being accompanied by a 'grandfather' passenger with 'L' plates on the vehicle.
im only 28 with no towing rights driving lwb shogun so i cant really tow any sort of trailer unless its very very small!!
something else that im sure ive read somewhere, again if im wrong please correct me, if you use a 2wd vehicle you can tow 1.5 times the towing vehicles weight but if you use a 4wd vehicle it goes up to 2 times the towing vehicles weight.
can anyone verify the last statement please.



You cannot carry any sort of load in the vehicle or trailer whilst on L plates.


The bit about differing weights for 4wd and 2wd is not anywhere in the regs.

The ONLY regulation defining what the vehicle can tow is the towing limits set by the manufacturer.

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Nat

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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also we seem to get asked "What can my vehicle tow" or I'm looking for a Towcar (What's available?" quite a lot.

I'll start a list if you want and edit any contributions into a single post,


Landrover Discovery 1989-present - 3500kg Braked
Landrover Defender 1982 - present - 3500kg braked
Landrover Series III 109 2000kgs braked
Daihatsu Fourtrak LWB and SWB - 3500kgs Braked
Santana PS10/ Iveco Massif - 3500kgs Braked
Nissan Patrol - 3500kgs Braked
Isuzu Trooper LWB - 3500kgs Braked
VW Toureg (all) - 3500kgs braked
Kia Sorento -2009 3500kg braked
Kia Sorento Manual 2009 onwards 2500kg braked
Kia Sorento Auto 2009 onwards 2000kgs braked

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out


Last edited by Nathaniel on Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cornish redneck
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nat i dont want to contradict what you are saying but i found this post on h&h, http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=156580 not sure if its the weight thing or if its livestock/horses.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

www.helpingldrivers.com/law/supervisor.htm
www.johnexley.co.uk/jedtagri.htm

You can do anything you like if the police dont catch you.
But dont believe everything you read on forums. Smile

Find a DVLA site that tells you that a learner driver in the UK with a provisional licence can tow a trailer/horse box, loaded or not,
& put the link up please.

*THE PERSON PROVIDING SUPERVISION WILL REQUIRE THE CORRECT LICENCE & INSURANCE FOR THE VEHICLE/OUTFIT BEING DRIVEN BY THE DRIVER BEING SUPERVISED INCASE THEY NEED TO TAKE OVER THE DRIVING.*

Then find a insurance company that will provide cover for a 'full licence' holding private driver (not a professional HGV instructor)
to sit next to a learner driver that is towing a trailer while under instruction.

I am sure there are enough idiots that would sit next to a learner driver that is towing a trailer carrying a horse/horses.
They would deserve the fine/points on their licence or the ban that i hope they would recieve. IMHO.
Its the 'Full licence holder' providing the instruction to know the law,
even more than the inexperienced driver they are supervising. IMHO.
george



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cornish redneck
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats fair shout mate, like i say im not 100% on towing laws, just going by info that i have found and been told.
i just find it very frustrating that myself a youngish driver cant legally tow even though i have many years experience on the farm and towing illegally (which i try not too any more) but then old boy joe bloggs that has just retired buys a huge caravan and sets off with no experience atall, who is the bigger danger on the road? rant over!
last time i got pulled over for towing i asked the copper if he knew exactly how i stood on towing, his reply was 'its a very grey area' but did explain the 3.5t rule, DONT EXCEED IT.

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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

j44gtw wrote:
Find a DVLA site that tells you that a learner driver in the UK with a provisional licence can tow a trailer/horse box, loaded or not,
& put the link up please.

*THE PERSON PROVIDING SUPERVISION WILL REQUIRE THE CORRECT LICENCE & INSURANCE FOR THE VEHICLE/OUTFIT BEING DRIVEN BY THE DRIVER BEING SUPERVISED INCASE THEY NEED TO TAKE OVER THE DRIVING.*




George, we're not talking about PROVISIONAL license holders towing - That IS illegal.


We're talking about a full license holder who does NOT have B+E Entitlement driving a LOADED combination whilst supervised and on L plates.

You cannot carry any load in vehicle or trailer whilst towing on L plates - Even if your Horse weighs less than 750kgs (That thread was the biggest load of horse droppings I've ever read!)



Quote:
ast time i got pulled over for towing i asked the copper if he knew exactly how i stood on towing, his reply was 'its a very grey area'



GREY AREA!!!!????

Towing laws are about as clear as you can get.

Still - I encountered a copper that did NOT know about seatbelt exemptions as outlined in the highway code.

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Nat

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re. Police & seat belt exemption.

I had a seat belt exemption letter for my work with the council.

I was sitting having a break outside a shop & beside a parked police car.
As i went to manouvered out, a traffic inspector walked infront of me & blocked my way.
He came to the window & said "Get your seatbelts on."
I told him we had seatbelt exemption.
He said "that will not stop you going through the window,
GET YOUR BELTS ON.
george


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

j44gtw wrote:
Re. Police & seat belt exemption.

I had a seat belt exemption letter for my work with the council.

I was sitting having a break outside a shop & beside a parked police car.
As i went to manouvered out, a traffic inspector walked infront of me & blocked my way.
He came to the window & said "Get your seatbelts on."
I told him we had seatbelt exemption.
He said "that will not stop you going through the window,
GET YOUR BELTS ON.
george


.



What's your exemption for?
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DENT
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DENT wrote:
the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible


??????


From the Discovery owner's handbook off RAVE:

Quote:
Maximum permissible towed weights V8i & Tdi On- road Off- road
Unbraked trailers 750 kg (1653 lb) .................................................. 500 kg (1102 lb)
Trailers with overrun brakes 3500 kg (7716 lb) ................................ 1000 kg (2204 lb)
4 wheel trailers with coupled brakes * 4000 kg (8818 lb) ................. 1000 kg (2204 lb)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul C, it was for 'Housebound Library Delivery' when traveling short distances in town.
Home visits & customers coming out to the vehicle.
george


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul_c wrote:
DENT wrote:
the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible


??????


From the Discovery owner's handbook off RAVE:

Quote:
Maximum permissible towed weights V8i & Tdi On- road Off- road
Unbraked trailers 750 kg (1653 lb) .................................................. 500 kg (1102 lb)
Trailers with overrun brakes 3500 kg (7716 lb) ................................ 1000 kg (2204 lb)
4 wheel trailers with coupled brakes * 4000 kg (8818 lb) ................. 1000 kg (2204 lb)


thats what i mean but the 2000 is as i was lookling at series vehicles
how do you achieve coupled brakes on a landy as its not air like trucks
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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DENT wrote:
paul_c wrote:
DENT wrote:
the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible


??????


From the Discovery owner's handbook off RAVE:

Quote:
Maximum permissible towed weights V8i & Tdi On- road Off- road
Unbraked trailers 750 kg (1653 lb) .................................................. 500 kg (1102 lb)
Trailers with overrun brakes 3500 kg (7716 lb) ................................ 1000 kg (2204 lb)
4 wheel trailers with coupled brakes * 4000 kg (8818 lb) ................. 1000 kg (2204 lb)


thats what i mean but the 2000 is as i was lookling at series vehicles
how do you achieve coupled brakes on a landy as its not air like trucks


There are systems out there, I've seen it done.
Can't remeber how it worked tho.

Not forgetting you need it on a Ring hitch as Towballs are max 3500kgs...

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