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Help with brakes please! there's nothing left to replace
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s4
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Joined: 08 Feb 2016
Odometer: 12
Location: United Kingdom



PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Help with brakes please! there's nothing left to replace Reply with quote

Hi all

I wondered if you could help me, I'm posting this as I'm out of all options, and literally at the end of my tether with it. Anyway, I have a 1995 defender 90, which when I bought it, the brake system was in a very sorry state.
   So since owning it its had a complete overhall on the brake system and everything is new including:

New OEM servo x2 & master cylinder x2
New vacuum pump
New AP Calipers
New mintex / ferodo pads
New cheap TRW discs from ebay
New goodridge stainless hoses x2
New timken bearings in all 4 hubs
3 new stub axles

Now, my problem.  I'm having an issue with the pedal travel when braking after turning or when I'm off road.  The travel doubles on the press following a turn, but mainly sharper turns. And off road it's awful.

So, you maybe thinking it's pad knock back due to play in wheel bearings.  Which is what I was told, after many hours of research. There is zero play when rocking each wheel; I must have been into each hub at least 5 times to check or change my adjustment. And this week i decided to tighten the bearings to 40Nm to see if I still had the problem. And i did!

I've done some testing this week with the vacuum pipe off on private land. If driving in a straight line forward or reverse the pedal is perfect. If I rock the steering and turn from lock to lock while stationary no issues either. But when I turn and drive forward the travel increases. But if I remain turning for instance going round in a circle in first gear, the pedal will be fine. But when I reverse in the same circle,  the pedal travel doubles again.
    And it appears the same for both left and right hand lock, off road and corners driving normally (not quite as bad).

Has anybody got any ideas please, because as you can see from my list. I've replaced a lot of things now,  and a lot of things twice. Any help would be massively appreciated. 

Thanks for reading
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, time for some daft questions:

are you losing fluid?
Are the rubber pipes perished at all?
Does the pedal travel return to normal without bleeding the brakes?

__________________________________
Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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s4
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Joined: 08 Feb 2016
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Location: United Kingdom



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
OK, time for some daft questions:

are you losing fluid?
Are the rubber pipes perished at all?
Does the pedal travel return to normal without bleeding the brakes?


Thanks for the reply Richard.

I'm losing absolutely no fluid what so ever. Stationary and driving in a straight line the pedal is perfect, solid as a rock with no creep.

The rubber pipes have been replaced for stainless lines, I'm on the 2nd set as I thought the first set might have been faulty causing the problem.

Bleeding the brakes has no effect on the problem at all. Tried gallons of fluid through, and there's certainly no air, the pedal is too good in a straight line too.


I forgot to add in my post, last week I changed the existing stainless flexi hoses for goodridge, as I thought they were failing and they were the only options I had left. 

Before doing so, I clamped 1 front flexi at a time, and the pedal was better. I would say the pedal was 90% improved, with just a very very slight increase in travel when turning, which could have been my imagination . Both sides had the same results when clamped. 

This then forced me into tightening the bearings up to 40nm as I was convinced it was to do with the bearings. No luck!
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the rubber vacuum pipes on the servo side?

How long does it take for the pedal pressure to return to normal after it has gone soft?

Does it firm up with successive pushes on the pedal?

Have you tried zig zagging whilst braking?

Are the front flexi pipes long enough?

__________________________________
Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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s4
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Joined: 08 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
And the rubber vacuum pipes on the servo side?

How long does it take for the pedal pressure to return to normal after it has gone soft?

Does it firm up with successive pushes on the pedal?

Have you tried zig zagging whilst braking?

Are the front flexi pipes long enough?


The vacuum pipe is fine. I've even removed the vacuum pipe out the servo to rule any differences out with servo assisted. Problem still occurs without servo assistance.

I was testing yesterday with the vacuum pipe removed. And I'd say the pedal firms back up after 1 or 2 pedal presses and then it's perfect again until I turn.

The flexi hoses are long enough too, checked a few times and thought the last ones were fault. Still no joy.

Thanks for reply. It's certainly stumped me.
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you press the pedal progressively does it remain firm? How long can you hold it with the pressure maintained.
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s4
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
If you press the pedal progressively does it remain firm? How long can you hold it with the pressure maintained.


In general or after I've turned?

The pedal pressure will remain the same forever when stationary or driving in a straight line.

I'm 99% sure the pressure stays the same after a corner too, except it's much lower down the pedal travel stroke.
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you checked the rear calipers and discs?

It may seem odd but if the front is fine then maybe, just maybe, the rear pads are being pushed back when the car leans?

__________________________________
Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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s4
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
Have you checked the rear calipers and discs?

It may seem odd but if the front is fine then maybe, just maybe, the rear pads are being pushed back when the car leans?


They look fine. The reason why I thought it was the front is because when I clamped the front hoses one at a time. The problem diminished!

Also I thought, the rear never move. The rear wheels make the same movements whether turning or driving in a straight line?

Thank you for your replies helping me getting to the bottom of it. It's really appreciated Smile
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

s4 wrote:
except it's much lower down the pedal travel stroke.


What would that be in terms of inches or cm?
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

s4 wrote:

Also I thought, the rear never move. The rear wheels make the same movements whether turning or driving in a straight line?

Thank you for your replies helping me getting to the bottom of it. It's really appreciated Smile


They're not meant to move but if something is loose ...



I have whole bags of straws I can clutch at Laughing

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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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s4
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xpajun wrote:
s4 wrote:
except it's much lower down the pedal travel stroke.


What would that be in terms of inches or cm?


Hard to say really, but I would say the pedal doubles in travel compared to when driven in a straight line. And as you can imagine, on country roads, the pedal is very unpredictable!
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s4
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
s4 wrote:

Also I thought, the rear never move. The rear wheels make the same movements whether turning or driving in a straight line?

Thank you for your replies helping me getting to the bottom of it. It's really appreciated Smile


They're not meant to move but if something is loose ...



I have whole bags of straws I can clutch at Laughing


Hahaha cheers Rich. My bag of straws is pretty much empty now.

The rear calipers, and hubs are fine. Checked so many times its unreal.

I did think it may be the front discs that are the issue, but I'm sure I'd have pedal pulsing If they were warped or faulty?
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At low speeds (ie off road) you may not notice the pulsing, its odd it only happens on turning
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Xpajun
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Joined: 22 Sep 2008
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does it have abs
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s4
Gate Opener


Joined: 08 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xpajun wrote:
Does it have abs


No abs either. Such an odd problem.

Thanks for all your replies
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mike328
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Odometer: 793
Location: Suffolk!



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

did you put new discs on it?
and if so did you clean the surface they mount to thoroughly?
if so was it excessively corroded?

even if it is a warped disc or one that didn't mount up square, its the only doing it round corners that throws all logic....

I have no idea how defender steering is mounted/routed through the bulk head and past your pedals (and how they're mounted), could the problem be there???

__________________________________
Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920.
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s4
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike328 wrote:
did you put new discs on it?
and if so did you clean the surface they mount to thoroughly?
if so was it excessively corroded?

even if it is a warped disc or one that didn't mount up square, its the only doing it round corners that throws all logic....

I have no idea how defender steering is mounted/routed through the bulk head and past your pedals (and how they're mounted), could the problem be there???


I totally agree mike. That's why I'm reluctant to change the discs to tell the truth.

I'm pretty sure I cleaned the mating face well, however you do second guess yourself when there's a problem like this.

I've thought on the same lines as you regarding the steering column etc, however if it was the column, or around that area in the engine bay, it would happen when stationary as well as moving?
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fixit
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Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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Location: Sunny snowy rain devon and thats just today



PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi im thinking its a problem with the rear brakes.

As you have said the problem is or seems better no matter which front caliper you clamp off.

That is leading me to think that you are then pushing more fluid to the rear brakes and masking the problem ie you think its helping but you are just making it much easier to reseat the rear pads.

Have you tried clamping off the rears to see what happens?
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jojo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you certain that the difflock is not engaged - not just the lever in the "off" position, but tested it to be actually off?

J
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mike328
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Joined: 10 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. how about when you steer while driving and the while alternator is loaded the belt slips (and like a miracle makes no noise) and then the vacuum pump doesn't spin and then you lose servo vacuum and your pedal drops. bit Heath Robinson I know... Smile

seriously though - have you got a non return valve in the vacuum pipe? is it working?

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Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920.
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Big Dunc
Just got MTs


Joined: 09 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read all of the above.

Diff lock is a good call. Not sure its a servo problem. That would just make the peddle feel heavy.

I would want to check all four calipers are free to slide freely.

This may be a daft question, but has anyone else looked at it. You could be blind to the obvious as you know the car. Is it worth taking it to your local garage / MOT place and asking them to have a look. Even if you pay an hours labour that is cheap compared to what you have spent so far or could potentially waste by changing random parts (just in case). Give them a list of what you have done so they know what to double check and what to rule out.
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s4
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies chaps. Really appreciate this.

I'll answer them all in one in no order haha Very Happy

The vacuum pump runs off the cam on my model, so to rule the servo and vacuum pump out, I removed the pipe out of the servo, and did the tests without servo assisted brakes. And the problem still occurred.

Difflock. I'm pretty sure it disengages, the light goes out and if I don't engage it off road I struggle in some areas. Why would the issue occur on Difflock out of interest?

The rear brakes are all newish, over a year old. All bearings new, calipers are all tight. I can't see anything untoward at all.

And lastly, it's a very good point why I have never had a garage to look at it. Mainly due to being scared of the labour cost to fault find like I have and how massively time consuming it is. It flies through the MOT, without a mention on anything. I like to keep it mechanically sound, and always have worked on it myself. I enjoy it most of the time aha Rolling Eyes
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Big Dunc
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Joined: 09 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am exactly the same as you in respect of being scared of labour costs and generally not using garages, but sometimes it is worth it.

If you have a landrover / 4X4 specialist near you it wouldnt harm to ask them to look at it. Ask them what they will look at / check first, and how long that will take. Then say, that until you/they know exactly what is wrong, you dont want them to spend more than an hours labour on it. Most garages will do that.

My MOT place is a local "village / backstreet" garage. They dont charge for quoting for work. On a few occasions in the past I have said "I have this knocking noise I am concerned about and cannot diagnose, how much for you to look at it"? They have said "nothing to look at, when we identify it, we will quote to repair and its up to you whether you want to go ahead". I occasionally slip the lads there some beer money, but it does keep them sweet.
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jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

s4 wrote:


Difflock. I'm pretty sure it disengages, the light goes out and if I don't engage it off road I struggle in some areas. Why would the issue occur on Difflock out of interest?



Clutching at very thin straws I know, but if the difflock is stuck on and wound up it seems to give many strange handling characteristics, but it does no harm to eliminate it.

I'm with big dunc - give the local garage a chance.

J
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Mr Tyre
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you got a normal pair of rubber flexy pipes you can try as my concern is that when you turn the steering the problem gets worse as such.Only change one flexy at a time.

Or try clamping the rear pipes one at a time and see if that makes a difference
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RichMayo
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Joined: 04 Feb 2013
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1997 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure a line isn't getting pinched somewhere when you steer? If clamping a line seems to fix it, and you don't have the issue whilst turning in a continuous circle, but after wouldn't that be equivalent? In that you are only pinching one side depending on which way you turn - and you tested clamping off a side at a time. You seem to be describing an issue after the turn is completed... which would be you taking your clamp off, or the line unkinking/uncrushing? You also said it's worse when it's sharper. I don't get why reversing in a circle would have anything to do with it though.
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mike328
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about;
when you go round a corner you slide sideways on your seat, therefore making your leg stretch further to reach the pedal, and feeling like the travel has changed? On the straight bits you've wriggled back into the middle of your seat and the problem appears to go away... Smile

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jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jojo wrote:
s4 wrote:


Difflock. I'm pretty sure it disengages, the light goes out and if I don't engage it off road I struggle in some areas. Why would the issue occur on Difflock out of interest?



Clutching at very thin straws I know, but if the difflock is stuck on and wound up it seems to give many strange handling characteristics, but it does no harm to eliminate it.

I'm with big dunc - give the local garage a chance.

J


Sorry, meant to add that just because the difflock light goes off it does not confirm that difflock is no longer engaged, it should but it doesn't, it just confirms that the DL lever in is the off position.

(with one side wheels chocked and brakes off, jack up the other side just enough for the tyres to clear the ground, then turn a jacked wheel - should turn freely without the other jacked wheel turning).

J
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spannerman69
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if it wasn`t for the steel flexy`s you could add one more simple test to the game .

vice grips x4 ,one on each flexy pipe , drive it and corner ,roll to a stop , try the peddle again , if no change then remove them one by one . that should point you in the right direction . as to front or back brakes .

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