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Winch motor wiring

 
 
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Winch motor wiring Reply with quote

I know I've been fitting and sorting winches for years but I have never really got to grips with how the whole thing works. All I've done is follow the instructions and found it worked.

So,
what is all this F1 F2 A business?
How does the solenoid pack control the motor direction?

I've found this but it doesn't explain the why!


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Xpajun
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Joined: 22 Sep 2008
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

F1 and F2 are the ends of the field coil A is the armature


How it works:

The solenoids (yes there is more than one) do the following:

Direction 1 - F1 is connected to positive F2 is connected to A

Direction 2 - F2 is connected to positive F1 is connected to A

Neutral is connected to the motor body which in turn is connected to the other side of the armature making the circuit
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So by changing the direction of the current in the windings you reverse the field induction and therefore the rotation direction and switching A[rmature] acts as the on/off switch?

Right, I have the theory sort of straight in my head (after dredging up my physics from 25 years ago). Now, should I expect to read 12v at F1 &F2 all the time and 12v at A only when I hit the switch (in either direction)?

I ask because I've fitted a 2up twin motor conversion to my Goldfish TDS winch and the new Bow2 works fine but the old one does nothing at all. The motor is with Goodwinch and has been checked out perfect and just awaiting testing.

I'd hate to wire it up wrongly and have the 2 motors working against each other. Shocked

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Xpajun
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errrrmmmmm.....


Mind really being taxed now Laughing

You'll only have 12 volt at one of the F terminals the other F and A terminals being reduced by the resistance of the field coil - and you shouldn't have that until you hit the switch.

If you are using a smart contactor I'd use one for each motor but wire the impulse wires (the ones going to the socket together) in a way that both motors turn in the same direction
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RichardD
Marshall


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I get the motor back from Dave Bowyer and refitted to the winch I can get the wiring done properly and double check.

I was getting 12v at both F1 and F2 but the main +ve was reading a bit higher.

My logic circuits say there should be 2 solenoids for each direction: 1 for A (on/off) and 1 for F (energise windings). A standard 'can' pack ahs 4 solenoids but Albrights only have 3 it seems.

I'm just confusing myself now - it's as bad as trying to remember which frequency is 2m and which is 70cm - I have to work it out from first principles each time! Rolling Eyes Embarassed

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just had an illuminating chat with Dave Bowyer and got to the bottom of the problem - the solenoid pack is not wired up right!!!

I was using the pack which was fitted under the bonnet by the last owner and assuming (yes, assumption: the mother of all f**k ups) it was wired correctly. I always planned to use new Albrights mounted to the end of the motors.

I was getting 12v at the motor all the time because the main live was on the wrong solenoid post! It will work perfectly once I wire it up the way I want to!

For reference:
at rest there should be zero volts at the motor until you key the control. In one direction power is fed directly to an 'F' post and the other 'F' and 'A' are connected to each other. This completes the circuit to earth energising the electromagnets, creating the magnetic field which causes the armature to spin.

The solenoid pack has 4 terminals: main +ve in, F1, F2 and A. Switching the control causes 2 things to happen: +ve to F1, and F2 to A (or vice versa). In a standard 4 can pack you have 2 sets, one for each side but in an Albright type you must only have 3, one of which can switch 2 ways (ie one does F1:A and alternately, F2:A).

I'll also be totally rewiring the winch feeds and the batteries as well as cutout switch and isolators. 55m2 for all main connections.

There is nothing more likely to cock up your winching than poor cabling!

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Xpajun
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Albrights were just 2 contactors, in which case you could get 12v at both sides of the Field coil when not wired correctly:

Albright~

2 x double pole contactors

Off state
F1|--o o---A---o o--|F2

F1|--o o---+---o o--|F2

Direction 1
F1|--o o---A---o o--|F2

F1|--o o---+---o o--|F2
positive connected to F2 through field coil to F1 through contactor to Armature
Direction 2
F1|--o o---A---o o --|F2

F1|--o o---+---o o--|F2
positive connected to F1 through field coil to F2 through contactor to Armature

<EDIT>After half a lifetime working in maintenance you'd think I could spell armature Rolling Eyes Laughing </EDIT>
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to look this up on Albright's website Wink

You are correct, it is a twin pole contactor block. One way it connects F1 and A to +ve and the other way it connects F2 and A to +ve.

Dave Bowyer told me the way to work the winch without a solenoid pack is to isolate main +ve, connect it to either F1 or F2 whichever winches you in the direction you need to go and then bridge the other F to A and then use the isolator as a switch.

http://www.albrightinternational.com/files/down...s/spares/DC88.pdf

It's all becoming clear Cool

Of course had I been smarter I'd have looked all this up in the first place instead of asking damn fool questions Laughing

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Xpajun
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Joined: 22 Sep 2008
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:


Of course had I been smarter I'd have looked all this up in the first place instead of asking damn fool questions Laughing


Ahhhh... but if you did we wouldn't have had the discussion here where everyone can take advantage of it Wink

Incidentally I dislike the Albright type - a) because the wiring can easily be cocked up as you have found, b) if a contact gets burned you have to change the whole contactor rather than clean the contact c) all the connections are exposed d) if a contact arcs closed you can't stop the winch (by releasing the switch).

I much prefer the Warn type - I've opened up the solenoids mine to clean the contacts, then bolted them back together again, there are 4 solenoids that operate in pairs, if a contact arcs closed in one the other will still open killing supply to the winch - far safer arrangement Wink
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xpajun wrote:
RichardD wrote:


Of course had I been smarter I'd have looked all this up in the first place instead of asking damn fool questions Laughing


Ahhhh... but if you did we wouldn't have had the discussion here where everyone can take advantage of it Wink



Quite so Wink Laughing

Albright say theirs can also be repaired - that's the link to their pdf. I find repair manuals much more informative than user manuals

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Xpajun
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:


Albright say theirs can also be repaired


I wasn't aware of that Richard - I bought an Albright or one of the cheaper copies (can't remember) about 3 or 4 years ago and never fitted it - due to not really wanting to go to a double contact - so I cleaned the contacts again on the Warn and the replacement is sitting on a shelf somewhere in my garage Laughing
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jeepmadmike
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have 2 batteries and get really clever with a Albright you can make it into a 12/24v switch to speed things up
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeepmadmike wrote:
If you have 2 batteries and get really clever with a Albright you can make it into a 12/24v switch to speed things up


There are some funky systems sold by Deven 4x4,Goodwinch and Gigglepin that do exactly that. IIIRC you're better with 3 batteries.

Over the weekend Yogi & I got the 90 put back together with main MSA isolator, winch isolators all working, new starter motor etc. We have both rear lowline winch and the front 2up twin motor TDS winch working as well. It's no faster than a standard one but you can tell it will never bog down - I see a need for a working twin alternator system Shocked

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