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George Galloway should be prosecuted ...
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** GED **
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard, I think you can be over sensitive on the anti semetism front.

I'm sure there's loads of people who don't like you because you're a jock......




Smile


I have actually just resigned from a forum due to the anti Islamic comments that were rife.

Seems racism is fine if you are over 60
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

** GED ** wrote:
Richard, I think you can be over sensitive on the anti semetism front.

I'm sure there's loads of people who don't like you because you're a cock......





spelling mistake corrected

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not wishing to open a can of worms, but there are so many rational reasons why people could dislike me it is almost the acme of laziness to use religion.

Loathing and hatred should be so much more personal, IMO.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:

Loathing and hatred should be so much more personal, IMO.


Like what people say about GED then Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I know this is all banter and so on.

But children, remember that it could all end in tears, then everyone will be sent to bed, even those who stood on the sidelines [looks at Ian].

Now play nicely, and no more name calling [frowns at Ged]


All of you go and play outside, it has been raining so you can get all muddy playing with your cars.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ain't Been raining here....

Forever by the look of it....




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Asking from ignorance.

Would world peace improve if USA gave the Israelies a lump of North America equivalent in size, climate and terrain to Israel, provided that they ALL moved to their new home (aka The Promised Land) Or would the same problems develop on the other side of the Atlantic over the next 50 years? I thought all this started with Moses, or even earlier?

Same question, but change the beneficiary to Palestine?

I have heard that the Dutch are buying up large areas in Spain. Perhaps they believe that Climate Change is real?

602

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The early Zionists were offered Uganda but your suggestion implies you assume the problem to be Israeli aggression.

Israel is where it is because that is where Jews came from, and have always been in exactly the same way the other varied groups including Druze, Bedouin and 'Palestinians' (who are a recent conglomeration of tribes/groups). Only the lunatic fringe of Israelis want rid of anyone but getting rid of Israel and the Jews seems to be the mainstream Palestinian view.

You are suggesting the forced ethnic cleansing of 7 million people from their ancestral home to satisfy the demands of an extremely aggressive militant group who are not even representative of their own people.

Israel is not the enemy of the Palestinans, Hamas is.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:


You are suggesting the forced ethnic cleansing of 7 million people from their ancestral home to satisfy the demands of an extremely aggressive militant group who are not even representative of their own people.


and the above statement works both ways, depending on our point of view....
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

** GED ** wrote:
RichardD wrote:


You are suggesting the forced ethnic cleansing of 7 million people from their ancestral home to satisfy the demands of an extremely aggressive militant group who are not even representative of their own people.


and the above statement works both ways, depending on our point of view....


Selective quoting, Ged, you are better than that I hope.

Israel does not have the total destruction of the Palestinians as its stated primary objective, Hamas and the like do.

Israel remains the only true democracy in the region and it's Government is just as representative of its people as the HMG is. Do you agree with everything your duly elected government does?

Anyway, this thread is about George Galloway breaking UK law and needing to be held accountable.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Galloway should be prosecuted for treason, That I believe is still a hanging offence.
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** GED **
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
** GED ** wrote:
RichardD wrote:


You are suggesting the forced ethnic cleansing of 7 million people from their ancestral home to satisfy the demands of an extremely aggressive militant group who are not even representative of their own people.


and the above statement works both ways, depending on our point of view....


Selective quoting, Ged, you are better than that I hope.


but you are biased richard, despite your liberal outlook. not a criticism, just a fact.

im sure if you asked a palestinian, they would give much the same answer.

both sides think they are right.

both sides are, to some degree wrong.

now im off to solve world hunger.....
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I'm biased, but it is rather disingenuous to deliberately misquote someone by omission. It adds nothing to the debate, it wasn't even being devil's advocate.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a huge fan of Russell Brand but he's not wrong in this article

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/russell-brand/w...sm_b_5694864.html

By demanding Israeli (ie kosher) products are removed from Bradford, Galloway is demanding that Jews are prevented from free religious expression or, at the very least, made to go elsewhere to do it.

Brand makes several good points ( that I agree with); criticism of the Israel government is entirely legitimate, as is abhorrence of the death and destruction inflicted on the Palestinians, however the almost complete lack of condemnation for the actions of Hamas (and all the other factions over which not even Hamas has control) is telling. All that needs to happen for Israel to leave Gaza alone is for Hamas etc to stop attacking Israel which is something Galloway is pointedly not calling for.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:

Israel is where it is because that is where Jews came from,


Think you might find it is where the Jewish religion came from.

Ethiopian, Yemeni and Indian Jews didn't come from what is now Israel / Palestine



But yes GG is a cock of the first class

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed wrote:
RichardD wrote:

Israel is where it is because that is where Jews came from,


Think you might find it is where the Jewish religion came from.

Ethiopian, Yemeni and Indian Jews didn't come from what is now Israel / Palestine



But yes GG is a cock of the first class


I'll assume you are not meaning to be racist/anti-semitic.

Being Jewish is not just a religion, it is a Nation, a way of life, a shared heritage and lineage traceable for thousands of years. There is even a 'Cohen' gene (Cohen being the 'priestly' tribe). There have been Jews living in what is now Israel continuously in small numbers.

Those who have converted or married into Jewish families over the centuries are the same as those of mixed race who recognise themselves as being black/african etc and one would hardly question their right to that identity. Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews would take HUGE exception to your comment (as do I for that matter).

Jews, have a strict, self imposed, definition of what it is to be Jewish (ie having a Jewish mother). History has shown us that no matter how assimilated we are into the local population (cf Germany of the 1930s) Jews are ALWAYS, eventually, denied the right to call ourselves citizens of the Country of our birth, something that is happening right now around the world and why Yemeni, Ethiopian, Iranian, Iraqi Jews have fled from the lands of their (and their antecedent's) birth to avoid forced conversion or death. It happens to Jews and only Jews shout about it, it happens to Christians and, after an awful pause, the World reacts. Where do we go to when our world is dropped on our heads? Where do we have to call our ancestral home other than Israel? Your comment sounds reasonable until to realise that you are suggesting that I am wrong about MY definition of MY cultural and historical identity.Whether you realise it or not, you are attempting to supersede my definition with one of your own that can then be used to justify the denial of the Jews' right to self determination. This is why anti-zionism IS anti-semitism

Where would millions of Jews leave Israel for if Hamas and their pals had their way? If anyone thinks that the Palestinians would anything other than complete and total genocide if they got their way ("Palestine will be free from the river to the sea" is their cry) should look at what they did when they won their election in 2007.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
Of course I'm biased, but it is rather disingenuous to deliberately misquote someone by omission. It adds nothing to the debate, it wasn't even being devil's advocate.


sorry, i disagree. it was my opinion and i am entitled to it and to express that opinion in any way i see fit.

and flying off the deep end because someone makes a comment adds nothing to the debate either....

but everytime someone makes a comment on a thread where the jewish religion/state/nation/persecution is being discussed that you dont agree with thats exactly what you do. you launch into a tirade of self determination and lineage and completely miss the opportunity to educate from your (within the active members at least) rather unique position.

and you wonder why people dont bother discussing it....
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

** GED ** wrote:
RichardD wrote:
Of course I'm biased, but it is rather disingenuous to deliberately misquote someone by omission. It adds nothing to the debate, it wasn't even being devil's advocate.


sorry, i disagree. it was my opinion and i am entitled to it and to express that opinion in any way i see fit.

and flying off the deep end because someone makes a comment adds nothing to the debate either....

but everytime someone makes a comment on a thread where the jewish religion/state/nation/persecution is being discussed that you dont agree with thats exactly what you do. you launch into a tirade of self determination and lineage and completely miss the opportunity to educate from your (within the active members at least) rather unique position.

and you wonder why people dont bother discussing it....


You are entitled to your opinion, Ged, I would fight long and hard for your right to express it.

If you think that I flew off the handle in my last post then you grievously misunderstand the situation. Ed tried to correct me on the definition of "Jewish identity" and no matter what exact words he used and whether he meant to be racist or not, the effect is the same. I have explained, I have attempted to 'educate' as you put it as to why making a statement such as his is so upsetting and why the connotations are so negative but it seems that the idea that everyone has the right to define their own identity, including Jews then we will always have a problem.

I have, until recently, never questioned my decision to remain here in the UK when, as a recent graduate, I could have moved anywhere in the world. Now it seems I have a stark choice, keep my head down and my mouth shut when Jews worldwide are held responsible for the actions of a foreign government and are increasingly, again, denied the right to define their own identity, or say my piece and hold my ground and deal with the consequences.

It is correct to draw parallels to Nazi Germany, and Czarist Russia of the 1830s to 1880s that displaced and dispossessed millions of Jews (Fiddler on the Roof anyone?), the Spanish Inquisition and what is happening right now worldwide. It all started somewhere, in small increments and it is amazing what can eventually be considered 'normal'. Oddly enough the true golden period of Jewish enlightenment was in Spain under the Muslim Caliphate of the 9th to 11 Centuries.

The denial of anyone's right to self determination, to the definition of their own identity is to be fought at every turn and I apply that to Yazidi, Palestinian, Jew, Scot, Christian, black, brown, green, whatever.

What would you describe as "educate"? Am I not allowed to be insulted by casual racism? I don't like stereotyping especially when under the banner of 'banter'. Calling Scots stingy, or Scousers thieves, describing people as tinkers or Gyppos as terms of abuse make me upset and angry in equal measure because I know what it feels like and what it can lead to. Use of pejorative as an aid to deliberate dehumanisation allows people to justify direct action against their fellow human being. They cease to be a person they become an object or an animal and then they can be treated as such. It is a technique used by armies around the world and something we have to be wary of when driving. How many times have all said "then the BMW/Merc/Porsche just cut in front of me" when it was the driver, the person at the wheel who did it? It is the same process - dehumanisation and it's ultimate expression is genocide.

I saw footage of Israeli solders, just boys really, leaving the Gaza front on buses and celebrating their 'victory' and I shuddered. There can be no victory, nor should there be any celebration, when thousands are killed because a small minority cannot be persuaded to stop fighting. Israel was founded in the hope of being a "light unto the Nations" and that seems to have been forgotten at most levels. The Israeli Army does what it must (or at least, it's governments interpretation thereof) but I see no reason to celebrate. Military success in the Middle East always seems come at an unacceptable cost but no one seems to learn that lesson.

What is worst of all is that a connection is made between Jews and Israel beyond all common sense and the mouth breathers of the world will become ever more confident of taking action against Jews and feeling justified in doing so because of comments made by Galloway and, unfortunately, Ed. Galloway's are deliberate and illegal incitement, Ed's was innocent casual anti-semitism. I can't ignore either, nor should I be expected to, surely?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard - no offence meant but I wasn't been anti-semitic I think you may have misconstrude what I was getting at. I was talking science wise not culturally..

Were you referring to the semitic people in the terms of language group (as the term was first used for). Yes this would include some Ethiopians & Yemeni but certainly not SE Asians.

Or in the ethnological sense - this wouldn't include those of African or SE Asian descent.


--- Any way my point was that the area in question is where Jewish religion/culture - maybe sense of identity would be better term developed from. It is not however, where all the followers of the faith genetically originate as it were.

Alot of my mothers family perished under the Nazis - finishing what the Czarists started. Her grandparents that fled to the UK view their "homeland" as Russia not somewhere in the middle east. Yes the area had a cultural resonance to them but wasn't where they thought they and their line came from.

I do agree as you say the state of Israel is not the Jewish people - criticism of the state should never be transferred to a people be it a genetic group, cultural group or religious group.


And GG is still a cock that should be brought to task for stirring it up. And those that buy his guff are a menace to this city and need to educate themselves.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

point proven?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:

I'll assume you are not meaning to be racist/anti-semitic.


Thanks Ed, I honestly didn't think you were and I should not have made you feel the need to justify yourself. The problem remains, however, that casual comments which are very similar to those made by those who would deny people their basic rights (and we really are talking about basics here - the right to define ones own identity) can far too easily offend. I should know better Ed, and I apologise - yesterday was a bad day.

The thing is though that genetically, culturally and historically Jews can trace their lineage back a very very long way. There obviously has been a significant amount of 'interaction' between local populations as Jews travelled around the [then] known world, despite both Jews and locals maintaining strict separation, and several books (very boring, I don't recommend them) put forward hypotheses that modern Ashkenazi (eastern european descent) Jews are not genetically jewish at all and are, rather, descended from Khazaks who converted en masse following their king and were subsequently displaced by the next tribe that came along. This book, however ignores the numbers of people around at the time and that Jews followed several routes into northern/eastern europe after their expulsion by the Romans after the 2nd Temple was destroyed in 70CE.

In fact, it far more likely that Sephardi (Sepharadis are of southern/mediteranean descent) are genetic descendants of the original Jews given they migrated around the Med whilst also being forced to remain separate from local populations but perhaps the MOST likely candidates for a genuine claim to be genetically 'pure' Jews are the Yemeni/Iranian/Iraqi Jews who are visually indistinguishable from those people (of all types) who never left the Israel area. The Ethiopians are the most fascinating people for many reasons. Read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel

You talk about the scientific basis, maybe including genetic, for the Jewish claim to Israel as their homeland. The issue about trying to prove anything like this on scientific grounds is that the vast majority of people simply do not understand the full meaning of the latest research (which is ongoing). A friend of mine is a professor in genetics here in Glasgow and he once told me that he can barely follow the full import of the results. It seems that whilst there is evidence of a genetic thread running through almost ALL Jews, whether pasty white, red-headed 6' tall fatty northern europeans like my family or black as night, 5' tall centres of smile and beatific relaxation like the Ethiopians, we are talking about a People who have been spread throughout the world in different directions from a specific point in time nearly 2,000 years from a population equivalent to a small modern city. The science is interesting but really cannot be used by anyone to quantify a People's right to have self-determination in their ancestral homeland.

Jews are unique, or at least I can't think of a similar example, in that 2,000 years after expulsion there is still a strong enough link to a geographical place to have a homeland. Then again, I can't think of a discrete population which has been ostracised, persecuted and generally crapped on consistently by so many people over such a long period of time for no other reason than they refuse to accept that someone else's idea of a mythical being should be forced on them. I can't think of any other People who are expected to justify their own identity or who have their identity blithely defined by others.

Of course, the argument within Judaism, of 'who is a Jew' is fiercely fought and many bitter battles have been had over tea, coffee and cake and at dinner tables the world over. Basically, in genetic terms, we are all mongrels!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard - it was a tetchy day yesterday. I even had to put my hand in my pocket at one point.


"I can't think of a discrete population which has been ostracised, persecuted and generally crapped on consistently by so many people over such a long period of time for no other reason than they refuse to accept that someone else's idea of a mythical being should be forced on them."

As my ex's Jewish uncle says - "we maybe the chosen people, but sometimes I really wonder what God has chosen us for"

And yes the whole cultural and genetic migration of people is fascinating. Recently I've been looking into about the migrations 10 - 15 000 years ago and the cave finds of human activity.

Basically, in genetic terms, we are all mongrels" ---- and no group more so than the English.


And GG is still a cock

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a series on TV a couple of years ago charting the movement of early humans out of Africa. What I find amazing about Homo Sapiens is just how phenotypically varied we have become in such and evolutionarily short period of time. From Amazonian pygmies to Chinese to Northern Europeans, even within Africa there are amazing differences.

Still doesn't explain how much of a fanny Galloway is though.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sort of parallels inter-racial hatred as well... back then we were all the same, now we all hate each other! Success!

Oh well, at least everyone can rally behind the "We hate Galloway" banner

[on a slightly unrelated note, i now see a DIY/craft project coming on after work]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the up side -- if its a Yes vote can we send him back to Dundee?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is a Yes vote the English Constituents that elected him as a MP
in the Westminster Parliament can keep him.

And if he made the statement he did in England & it is proven to break English Laws then English Law can deal with him.

There is not much in the place of his birth for him now, he has already exploited the stupidity of people that gave him the leg up in politics when he was here.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrunt wrote:

There is not much in the place of his birth for him now,


Except lots of people who will challenge him on everything he says and stands for. He was involved in some scandal with a charity here, War on Want or something?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard i have the T Shirt, i was there.
I worked beside his Mother who was a Cleaner for Dundee District Council,
& she was a lovely lady.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17558313

We got the Free Newspapers Gaddafi paid for.

We trained the Engineers, Scientists, Doctors in Dundee,
& the Pilots at Scone.
From many Arab Countries, the brothers of Martyrs etc.

It was an interesting time in Politics in the 70's & 80's in Dundee.
Much Corruption in local & National Government then,
& many of them are still at it & in positions of power & influence.

Not everything was bad or still is,
Many People are generous and like to do good.

Lots of what was started in the past continues.
(Limb Fitters etc volunteering from Dundee LFC & Equipment donated etc has been a wonderful thing.)
http://dundee-nablus.org.uk

george
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So someone decided to thump him.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28992601
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart from being utterly condemnable, an attack like that is totally counter productive. The c**t will now feed off that for years especially when/if his trial for inciting racial hatred
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