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The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread
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Zef
Winch Assistant


Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Odometer: 59
Location: Hull



PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread Reply with quote

Thought I'd start a new thread for those of us who are interested in the technical and handling (on and off road) characteristics of 1 links.

Personally I'd like to know what they are like to drive on road and if they can be taken to A road speeds without needing new undercrackers. Anyone tried it or know of someone who has?
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wangaroo
Just got MTs


Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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Location: in deep doo doo



PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread Reply with quote

Zef wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread for those of us who are interested in the technical and handling (on and off road) characteristics of 1 links.

Personally I'd like to know what they are like to drive on road and if they can be taken to A road speeds without needing new undercrackers. Anyone tried it or know of someone who has?


Are you interested in One Linking front or rear or both ? Coil springs or leaves. How long an A frame can you fit between the axle and the one link crossmember? I have a One Link on the rear on leaves (without panhard)that handles and corners better than the standard leaf suspension ever could. The LandCruiser radius arm bushing has proven itself up to the task for about 50,000Km now and the crossmember hasn't bent or even looked like getting torn off the chassis.
As I mentioned in one of my posts on the train wreck of a thread on One Links that preceeded this one, quite a few vehicles in the early days of motoring when there were virtually no roads, and little in the way of repair facilities in some countries, were built with one link assemblies.
T and A model Ford cars and trucks built themselves a reputation for rugged reliability, often severely overloaded when being operated on the wagon trails of undeveloped regions of the world.
These all had One Link front and rear suspensions. The front A frame balljoint had the appearance that one could snap it with bare hands. But they rarely gave any problems.
Very few people have actuallydone One Link conversion in the UK compared to the USA, so you'll likely not get any further useful information on them in this forum, so if you are genuinely interested go to pirate4x4.com. There have been several lengthy threads on the subject to help you decide if it's for you.
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minimog
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow judging by the other slanging match i meen post i hope this one stays on track
as for the one links if your using for high speed work (like comps) then a one link is probely not as suitible as a 3/4 link setup because by its nature as one wheel is forced up the other has to come down (like a seesaw) so going round corners fast causies the 4x4 to lean you could limet this by hever springs but then you get a harsh ride
if you want flex say for trials they work very well gaining lots more traction than radius arms

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WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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clbarclay
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimog wrote:
as for the one links if your using for high speed work (like comps) then a one link is probely not as suitible as a 3/4 link setup because by its nature as one wheel is forced up the other has to come down (like a seesaw) so going round corners fast causies the 4x4 to lean you could limet this by hever springs but then you get a harsh ride


I agree with you conclusion that single link is not suitable for speed events, however not with the reason.
seesaw? unless you have a tractor style suspension which pivots round a pin rather than a ball in front/behind the axle then one side is not forced down by the other rising as the whole axle is free to raise up.



If handling is your top priority then a better way would be to get rid of the live axles and all the excessive unsprung weight that goes with them for a start.

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sajseven
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I REALLY don't understand this "1-, 2-, 3- & 4-linking" stuff. Could somebody please explain how this works?
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minimog
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think you will find that if you lift one wheel the only place for the other wheel is in the oposite direction due to the pivot being central and rigid mounted at the axel .wether its infront or behind its still would twist in the side-side direction i too agree that if you want speed then go indipendant supension where no other wheel movement afects the other wheels
__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
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IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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minimog
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a link is used to hold a axel in position a one link you would have a central bush at the t-case end fixed into a "A" Frame thats fixed ridgidly at the axel end so the axel pivots on a single bush and because its so mounted at the axel stops the axel rotating
then you have to control sideways movement most use panhard rods which one end fits the axel and the other end fits to the chassis

__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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clbarclay
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1987 Land Rover Range Rover

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimog wrote:
i think you will find that if you lift one wheel the only place for the other wheel is in the oposite direction due to the pivot being central and rigid mounted at the axel .wether its infront or behind its still would twist in the side-side direction



Are you saying that the center of the axle on a single link system is unable to move up/down Confused

There are basically 2 degrees of freedom in a single link suspension compared to a tractor axle which only has one and is like your seesaw analogy.

The axle can twist (one wheel going up and the other down), but the center of the axle can also move up/down relative to the chassis. This means that if one wheel raises and the center of the axle raise half that amount then the other wheel will effectively not move.

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and the Lord help them caught helping there selves.
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wangaroo
Just got MTs


Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimog wrote:
i think you will find that if you lift one wheel the only place for the other wheel is in the oposite direction due to the pivot being central and rigid mounted at the axel .wether its infront or behind its still would twist in the side-side direction i too agree that if you want speed then go indipendant supension where no other wheel movement afects the other wheels


Sorry Minimog,but your thinking is flawed. I assume you have a Mog? Have you studied and observed how your suspension operates ? The single link, be it a ball joint or compliant bushing is free to swing , swivel and rotate in all directions, The panhard rod only restrains it from swinging laterally. The see saw action is no greater than for any other link system, and is a product of spring rates and spring spacing. When say the right hand rear wheel hits a bump at speed, the axle assembly still swings upwards on the RHS,pivoting from the tyre contact patch of the LHS wheel, and the A frame just swings up and,depending on the angle and location of the panhard rod, either left or right on a very slight compound angle. If your rear suspension had only a single very stiff centrally mounted spring, then you would get some see saw action, as you would with other link arrangements, but mostly the spring will just compress and rebound.
When we talk about high speed handling, apparently race car engineers deem it desirable to keep both left and right wheelbases equal and constant throughout the range of suspension travel. race cars don't employ one links of course because they are mostly IRS IFS, but a One link with Watts Linkage( as fitted to Rover 3500 SD1 Saloons, a car I believe Tom Walkinshaw won the European touring car championship with some years ago) for lateral control gives zero rear steer and zero left to right wheelbase change throughout the full range of suspension travel.Even with the less than perfect Panhard Rod, roll/articulation steer is less than with multi link systems unless very long link arms are employed
The main question mark on the performance of One Link systems is the degree of Antisquat that is desirable for climbing steep gradients with different types of surfaces.I personally haven't noticed any excessive axle hop, but then I depend on low power, articulation and extremely low gearing to get to the areas I enjoy.(steep, broken and often offcamber fire trails) Perhaps one or two of the Norwegian comp guys can be persuaded to provide some input to this discusion on the merits or otherwise of the systems that as mentioned on the other thread are widely employed on their trials rigs.
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Zef
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Joined: 15 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread Reply with quote

wangaroo wrote:


Are you interested in One Linking front or rear or both ? Coil springs or leaves. How long an A frame can you fit between the axle and the one link crossmember? I have a One Link on the rear on leaves (without panhard)that handles and corners better than the standard leaf suspension ever could. The LandCruiser radius arm bushing has proven itself up to the task for about 50,000Km now and the crossmember hasn't bent or even looked like getting torn off the chassis.
As I mentioned in one of my posts on the train wreck of a thread on One Links that preceeded this one, quite a few vehicles in the early days of motoring when there were virtually no roads, and little in the way of repair facilities in some countries, were built with one link assemblies.
T and A model Ford cars and trucks built themselves a reputation for rugged reliability, often severely overloaded when being operated on the wagon trails of undeveloped regions of the world.
These all had One Link front and rear suspensions. The front A frame balljoint had the appearance that one could snap it with bare hands. But they rarely gave any problems.
Very few people have actuallydone One Link conversion in the UK compared to the USA, so you'll likely not get any further useful information on them in this forum, so if you are genuinely interested go to pirate4x4.com. There have been several lengthy threads on the subject to help you decide if it's for you.


I wasn't clear enough in my first post. The car is a sj and my daily drive and so isn't for competitions. I would probably do front and rear links the same unless there was a good reason not to. I would use coils for a nicer ride on-road and better articulation off-road.

I'll check out pirate and see what's been done. In the other thread i mentioned ease of fitting etc is a reason for considering 1 link. My other option might be a 3 link system.

decisions, decisions eh. Very Happy
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wangaroo
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Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread Reply with quote

[quote="Zef"]
wangaroo wrote:


I wasn't clear enough in my first post. The car is a sj and my daily drive and so isn't for competitions. I would probably do front and rear links the same unless there was a good reason not to. I would use coils for a nicer ride on-road and better articulation off-road.

I'll check out pirate and see what's been done. In the other thread i mentioned ease of fitting etc is a reason for considering 1 link. My other option might be a 3 link system.

decisions, decisions eh. Very Happy


It's best to try the search function on pirate before posting a new thread. They are mostly an intolerant bunch and are quick to flame without providing any useful input. Search under One Link, Grader Ball or Wishbone suspension threads for a start.
Never underestimate the articulation and control that can be achieved with a One link combined with leaf springs.
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*matt
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Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread Reply with quote

wangaroo wrote:

Never underestimate the articulation and control that can be achieved with a One link combined with leaf springs.


are you talking 1/4 elliptical leaf springs?

if you're talking 1/2 elliptical surely the one link wouldn't be a "one link" as such and would be better defined as an anti wrap bar?

cheers
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minimog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not saying that the axel will not move up and down
just try and lift one wheel and seewhat happens (on a 1link/a frame)
yes i hav mogs they use a large ball which is free to move in any plane but because its FIXED to the axel if you lift one wheel the other does go down i will post some pics to show you

__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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jeepmadmike
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one link sounds very interesting to me, with the right spring rates and damping i can see no reason y they should not work on the road too. I don't think the front joint needs to be massively strong if the links are long enough, the big stress points are the mountings to the axle case are under the greatest strain just welding a 2" box the the tube is not going to work. I will be building a one link for the rear of my G wagon one day...
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wangaroo
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Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The New One Link Suspension Systems Thread Reply with quote

matt carruthers wrote:
wangaroo wrote:

Never underestimate the articulation and control that can be achieved with a One link combined with leaf springs.


are you talking 1/4 elliptical leaf springs?

if you're talking 1/2 elliptical surely the one link wouldn't be a "one link" as such and would be better defined as an anti wrap bar?

cheers


Semi elliptic leaf springs with shackles on both ends of the spring. The front shackle being more of a hinged drop down spring hanger that is rigid in the lateral plane, thus still locating the axle laterally as a conventional leafspring does, thereby eliminating the requirement for a Panhard rod.
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wangaroo
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Joined: 27 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimog wrote:
im not saying that the axel will not move up and down
just try and lift one wheel and seewhat happens (on a 1link/a frame)
yes i hav mogs they use a large ball which is free to move in any plane but because its FIXED to the axel if you lift one wheel the other does go down i will post some pics to show you


If you prop the chassis on jackstands, remove both wheels and both coil springs and then jack one side of the axle up, yes the other side will go down like a see saw. But the truck is not suspended at the ball pivot, it is suspended at the axle and works the way I described it earlier.


Last edited by wangaroo on Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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clbarclay
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimog wrote:
im not saying that the axel will not move up and down
just try and lift one wheel and seewhat happens (on a 1link/a frame)
yes i hav mogs they use a large ball which is free to move in any plane but because its FIXED to the axel if you lift one wheel the other does go down i will post some pics to show you


If you just lift one wheel on any typical 4x4 axle suspension (including 3 and 4 link systems) with the springs in place then the other wheel will move down relative to the chassis due to load being transferred between the springs. Remove the springs (and support the chassis) first and then lift a wheel.

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minimog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it just so happens i have a mog that has all the coils removed if you lift the chassis yes the axel drops level ok put a jack under the drivers side rear wheel and jack up
what hapens
pasinger side stays on the ground while the drivers side goes up
i even tride to lift the pasinger side by hand to see if it was gravity holding it down it must just be the way im exsplaining it
just look how much more articulation a single link/a frame gets in tor this month
like i said i will post some pics
this is when we first cut off all the springs you can see that the axel is level because its suported on stands i will take some more at weekend

__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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minimog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangaroo think about what you said in the above post yes its has coils at each end of the axel yes compress one spring where does it pivot think about it Wink
and your welcome up anytime to see and try for yourself

__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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minimog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heres a few to show just how much a single link can travel


now corect me if im wrong but if the suspension does work how you say wouldent the drooping wheel be in the air

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WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
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UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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themightybaggins
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try this.

support the chassis, axle stands or whatever.

axle will drop all the way yeah?

now put an axle stand under ONE side of the axle, or put a wheel on, or whatever.

now get a jack on the other end of the axle, and jack it up and down through its movement. if you are correct, then by supporting one end of the axle (so it can not move downwards), the other end can not go up or down, without moving the chassis up and down.

i think you will find, that one wheel can go up and down, without forcing the other to move up or down. because they are connected on a solid axle, both wheels will always remain parallel to each other, but the height/up and down movement will not necessaraly change.

in fact! you said :

"if you lift the chassis yes the axel drops level ok put a jack under the drivers side rear wheel and jack up
what hapens
pasinger side stays on the ground while the drivers side goes up"

by saying that, you've admitted that the drivers side wheel can move up and down while the passenger side STAYS ON THE GROUND! and doesn't move down!

the pivoting axis of a 1 link suspension set up could be crudely described as a 3 dimensional imaginary line between the one link joint, and the contact patch i.e., where the tyre touches, or where it sits on an axle, axle stand etc. the panard rod also comes into play when your discussing suspension geometry, but we'll worry about that later!
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themightybaggins
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow thats impressive! are they yours?

reading your last post with the pics, i think you probably mean the same as me, just your explanation came across differently
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minimog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i give up (if the wheel is on the ground wheres it going to go) it carnt drop any ferther can it? look like im waisting my time does it look in the pics like that axel is paralel ? must be the way the pics were taken ( the mog with boggers on)
the cream 404 is a mates
the red 404/everything else was my insparation into mogs
i have a baby 411
and a lwb one im planing on modding to travel well for trials and be a lot lighter as you can see why completey redisign the wheel when they work like that

__________________________________
WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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Zef
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what surprised me with those pics...just how thin the A frame metal looked. It hardly looked strong enough for the job and yet i assume they don't bend. What are the dimensions of the a frame?

thanks.
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wangaroo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

minimog wrote:
wangaroo think about what you said in the above post yes its has coils at each end of the axel yes compress one spring where does it pivot think about it Wink
and your welcome up anytime to see and try for yourself


I was


Last edited by wangaroo on Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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wangaroo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangaroo wrote:
minimog wrote:
wangaroo think about what you said in the above post yes its has coils at each end of the axel yes compress one spring where does it pivot think about it Wink
and your welcome up anytime to see and try for yourself


I was running late for work this mornwhen I wrote that post Mini mog and didn't have time to explain things the way I wanted. What I am basically trying to point out is that your Mog torquetube or a One Link A frame is not the reason for the see saw action. The same thing happens with multi link arrangements too. It is the springs,their rate and their spacing that determins how much see saw action you get. To answer your question above. Once fully compressed, the spring becomes the pivot point or fulcrum. Before the spring becomes fully compressed the pivot point is the roll centre, which is the height of the centre of the Panhard rod. Whether or not that coincides with the axis of the ball joint/link bush is irrelevant as the roll centre of a panhard rod equipped suspension is calculated the same way for multi link systems too.
I would like to take you up on your kind offer, but there is a small problem of distance, about 12,000 miles.Nice pics BTW,
Cheers.
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wangaroo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zef wrote:
You know what surprised me with those pics...just how thin the A frame metal looked. It hardly looked strong enough for the job and yet i assume they don't bend. What are the dimensions of the a frame?

thanks.


The Unimog system is not really an A frame. It employes what is called a Torquetube. Most of the stresses is taken by the large diameter longditudal central tube which is bolted rigidly to the differential .The propshaft from the gearbox to the differential is contained within the tube, hence the name Torque Tube.The small bits of pipe you commented on are diagonal stiffeners, and I have seen them bent on occasions, but it doesn't appear to pull the torque tube out of square.
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dirtydiesel
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1984 Mercedes-Benz G Class

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zef wrote:
Personally I'd like to know what they are like to drive on road and if they can be taken to A road speeds without needing new undercrackers. Anyone tried it or know of someone who has?


The only 1 link i've had the change to drive on the road drove really nice.

It had the conventional radius arm mountings on the axle, with the radius arms cut off and a "A" frame welded to them with an landy "A" frame ball joint (with the nut facing upwards) at the chassis end.

There was far less feed back from the axle, in that the wheel wobble that was there previously was discernibley better and imperfections in the roads surface jarred the car less, but it in no way felt wolley or vague in fact it seemed a lot more direct. Body roll though was a little alarming Very Happy
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wangaroo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst we have your attention MiniMog. Are you or your Unimog associates able to comment on the one main criticism of OneLink/Torque tube systems ? That being the high degree of antisquat that causes excessive axle hop on steep loose surfaces. I would have thought that your very short wheelbase Mog may display this trait to an exaggerated degree compared to some of the longer wheelbase examples, and that if antisquat is such an undesirable characteristic to have for an offroad vehicle, why did Daimler Benz engineers choose a system that gave antisquat in spades for what I believe is still the most state of the art offroad vehicle available.
cheers
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wangaroo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtydiesel wrote:
Zef wrote:
Personally I'd like to know what they are like to drive on road and if they can be taken to A road speeds without needing new undercrackers. Anyone tried it or know of someone who has?


The only 1 link i've had the change to drive on the road drove really nice. Body roll though was a little alarming Very Happy


That is because unlike radius arm or 4 link suspensions One links dont have flexible bushings that bind or links with conflicting geometry that also causes bushing bind and gives inherant roll resistance. for this reason an antiroll bar would be a worthwhile addition to a One link system unless you can arrange the panhard rod or Watts Linkage location to give a high roll axis.
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