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Copper brake line...legal yes.. but safe?

 
 
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Toseland
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Odometer: 3209
Location: cardiff


1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Copper brake line...legal yes.. but safe? Reply with quote

Just picked up a roll of copper hose..

pressure tested to 1875 psi and certified as such to the appropriate BS standard,



safe for brake line replacement or should i get some of the cupro-nickle stuff (which is tested and certified to over 3000psi burst strength)...

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I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..

The feeling you get when you first smash your shaft out, is one you will never forget.. especially if you do it in front of 10 guys.
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spannerman69
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Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Location: st.helens



PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive been fitting making and fitting brake pipes for over 25 years and never had one fail due to the pressure .i`d say just use it .
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cynic-al
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

only one I've ever had fail was due to corrosion, I backed the car off the drive and stopped on the road to swap them around as my wife was first out in the morning, pulled back onto the drive and no brakes, scary feeling but couldn't have happened at a better time!

I use the nickle stuff but it does feel harder to flare so depending what equipment you've got I guess a good flare on a copper pipe is better than a dodgy flare on a nickle pipe?

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Toseland
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Odometer: 3209
Location: cardiff


1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah got a nice flare tool or 2 floating around.. and 25feet of nice BS marked copper pipe..
__________________________________
I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..

The feeling you get when you first smash your shaft out, is one you will never forget.. especially if you do it in front of 10 guys.
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any problems I've had with making brake lines has been dodgy flares so I would go for the copper line and be sure the flares seal perfectly.
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Wilbert Robinson
Articulating


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check with your local friendly MOT man as using copper could be a failure.
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Xpajun
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Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3241



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilbert Robinson wrote:
Check with your local friendly MOT man as using copper could be a failure.



Should never be a MOT failure if it ever is it's time to find somewhere else to MOT your car Wink
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mmgemini
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Joined: 26 Dec 2004
Odometer: 3096
Location: Stockton on Tees



PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first cars had copper brake pipes, well the ones with hydraulic brakes...

Then cars were fitted with steel brake pipes. They only just lasted to the first MOT.

Copper was banned at that time.
Then cupro-nickel came out. That was THE brake pipe to have, it made a mess of my nice flareing tool.
Then copper is allowed again.
There shouldn't be a problem with copper as long as it's tied down correctly.

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spannerman69
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Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Odometer: 2807
Location: st.helens



PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilbert Robinson wrote:
Check with your local friendly MOT man as using copper could be a failure.



ive worked in garages for over 25 years and never known any thing to fail because of copper brake pipes being fitted to it .

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ivorbiggin
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Odometer: 2485
Location: PORTSMOUTH


1996 Ford Maverick

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copper brake pipe is definitely not an mot fail, ask the mot tester to show you in the manual where it says using copper brake pipe is a fail.
The average pressure of the fluid for an average everyday car under normal braking is somewhere around 500 to 800 psi, and under hard braking 1000 to 1500psi, depending on cylinder bore sizes, servo efficiency and how hard your pressing on the peddle. Copper pipe is rated to around 1800 psi
However cars with full power hydraulic systems, I.E there is a hydraulic pump
pressurizing the brake master cylinder as apposed to a gravity fed master cylinder, should have brake pipes fitted that are able to withstand higher pressures.
Older Jags, Citroen's and Audi;'s are three that come to mind straight away.
and Some Landies and Rangies. in these cases i would use Cupro (aka Kunifer) pipe.

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Toseland
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Odometer: 3209
Location: cardiff


1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, as i said this stuff is cert to BS12445 (or 9., i cant remember) either way has a SWPressure of 1875psi per batch..


thankyou for reassuring me however mister biggun..



one quick question i do have, in addition to my original, is the brake bias valve has 1/8th NPT fittings, which have a sort of "V" shape at the bottom..

am i right in assuming this should not be used as it will not secure the flared end? ill have to go and get some other fitting...

will 1/8th NPT to male 1/8th BSP be suitable? i sort of know what i need.. lol, but aside from standing in front of the entire fittings set.. (should, or would be better if it was 90degrees as well)

__________________________________
I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..

The feeling you get when you first smash your shaft out, is one you will never forget.. especially if you do it in front of 10 guys.
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ivorbiggin
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Odometer: 2485
Location: PORTSMOUTH


1996 Ford Maverick

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without looking at the set up you have, and assuming your using 4.75mm 3/16 brake pipe and 10 mm fittings, i would look at getting some 1/8 NPT to 10mm adaptors.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-8-NPT-to-M10x1mm-Br...tor-/380563804841

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Toseland
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Odometer: 3209
Location: cardiff


1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, thankfully, all of the fittings on the MC and also the bias valve are 1/8 NPT, (m/c is female, as is the bias valve but the bias valve has a concave bottom so useless for male fittings, hence the male-male fitting in there.

next hurdle is the rear brake line, have to work out a way to get the line down the underside and inside of the steering column, going to be a fun one..

__________________________________
I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..

The feeling you get when you first smash your shaft out, is one you will never forget.. especially if you do it in front of 10 guys.
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mmgemini
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 26 Dec 2004
Odometer: 3096
Location: Stockton on Tees



PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well from 1956 until today..Yep that's the first time I've heard of either NP or NPT being used on brake lines.
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mike FOAK

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

I can cause trouble in an empty house !!!
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3241



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmgemini wrote:
Well from 1956 until today..Yep that's the first time I've heard of either NP or NPT being used on brake lines.


As I said in a earlier post 1/8NP is around 3/8 (or 10mm) diameter but with 27 tpi so might fit into a brake thread Question Confused

Quote:

The most common threads are: 3/8 x 24NF, 7/16 x 24NS, and M10 x 1

The most commonly confused sizes are 3/8” with 10 mm, and 7/16” with 11 mm. The 3/8” x 24NF will screw into M10 x 1 thread but not the other way around, so always try to screw M10 x 1 into 3/8” x 24NF to see if you have a match. If you are deciding between 7/16” and 11mm, the safer bet is to go with 7/16” because 11 mm is extremely rare.

It is possible to have a metric thread on one end of a brake line, and an imperial thread on the other end.

You can generally distinguish whether you have a metric or imperial threaded brake line from the year and origin of your vehicle:

European (not UK) – metric (99%)
Asian – metric (99%)
UK up to 1976 – imperial
UK after 1976 – metric
US prior to 1980 – imperial
US after 1980 – could be either, thank you Detroit!




I suspect that the "V" shape at the bottom that Toseland mentions is like Figure D below
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Toseland
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Odometer: 3209
Location: cardiff


1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup thats the one, "d" in the puc xpaj,

not happy with that fitting so i converted it to male-male and am using a female end on the actual hose so it holds snugly with the double flare..


and 1/8th npt is the identical to 3/16s bsp.,

__________________________________
I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..

The feeling you get when you first smash your shaft out, is one you will never forget.. especially if you do it in front of 10 guys.
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Munkee
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Odometer: 1505
Location: Hampshire


1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toseland wrote:


and 1/8th npt is the identical to 3/16s bsp.,


The thread pitch and diameter may be the same, but the shape of the thread is different, so won't seal properly.

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Steve

In America, some fundamental Christians believe that the world is only 5000 years old, In England, some of us drink in pubs older than that.
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agrimog
Winch Assistant


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Odometer: 65
Location: in the middle of some forest in sw scotlandlaughing at al the stuck lr's



PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

npt is not identical to bsp, npt is national pipe thread, an american standard, 60 degree thread angle, very very rare on anything after 60's american, shifted to an sae std. bsp is british standard pipe, a 55 degree thread angle, be carefull, there are different types, BSPP, BSPT,BSPG, all refered to as bsp, your one for brakes is BSPP, (P = parallel thread) most common sizes are 3/16" for brakes and 1/4" for clutches,
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mmgemini
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 26 Dec 2004
Odometer: 3096
Location: Stockton on Tees



PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agrimog wrote:
npt is not identical to bsp, npt is national pipe thread, an american standard, 60 degree thread angle, very very rare on anything after 60's american, shifted to an sae std. bsp is british standard pipe, a 55 degree thread angle, be carefull, there are different types, BSPP, BSPT,BSPG, all refered to as bsp, your one for brakes is BSPP, (P = parallel thread) most common sizes are 3/16" for brakes and 1/4" for clutches,


NPT. NATIONAL PIPE TAPER NOT thread.
There is NP and NPT both different.

There is BSP and BSP TAPER.

I have in my spares box.
3/ 8" BSW
3/ 8 BSF
10mm metric

nothing else.

Please learn fron those stupis people that used to tap metric callipers to take Imperial threads. Yes the threads pulled out under pressure.

USE THE CORRECT tube nut for the job.

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mike FOAK

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

I can cause trouble in an empty house !!!
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