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TV Licenses
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: TV Licenses Reply with quote

So the govt are looking at decriminalising non payment of TV License. Whilst I agree, in principal, as it costs us all money to lock these people up I keep hearing the argument that it's not fair to send someone to prison because they can't AFFORD the licence.

IMO if you can't afford the licence then you can't afford to own the TV. How many of these people who "can't afford" a TV licence can afford a Sky subscription?

I have a simple, and in-expensive, solution - if they don't have a licence and refuse to pay, confiscate their TV - simples

Discuss............

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.

Although I am licensed now there was a time when I did not own a TV and hence had no licence. It took 12 months to stop the 'enforcement' brigade to stop pestering me. I say decriminalise and but also stop persecuting.

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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't pay.

The antennas are unplugged from the TVs. Anything which we want to watch is via catchup (no licence required) and mostly netflix or a.n.other streaming is used for watching films.

With a kid in the house the benefits of not having real time TV are tremendous, one of which is no advertising.

I 'only' have a 4mb internet connection and this is more than adequate for streaming. IMO there's no need for TV broadcasting in it's current format and paying a licence fee to the BBC for the 4 channels they produce isn't worth it, I've never watched BBC4, 3 is just endless repeats of the same episode day after day, 1 has nothing on I'd want to watch, and for 1 hour on a Sunday for a few weeks of the year there's one program on 2 worth watching, but I'm not that fussed if I miss it, there's catchup 1.5 hours later.

A lot of these things were made possible by buying a £30 Android > HDMI PC and a bluetooth tiny keyboard / touchpad combo. It turns any HDMI TV into an Android tablet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's not really the issue here. There are people who watch the Beeb on their big screen TV, don't pay the licence fee, which is a legal requirement, and then refuse to pay the fine and therefore get jailed - at great expense to those of us who pay our taxes.

According to a friend of mine, who works for TV licensing, he regularly gets told that people can't afford to pay yet have a bigger telly than he can afford!

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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: TV Licenses Reply with quote

. wrote:

IMO if you can't afford the licence then you can't afford to own the TV.


This was the point I was responding too.

But, I've also heard that 'they can afford a bigger...' from a lot of people over the years. Just because someone has something doesn't mean that they've paid for it, hence 2008 - 2013 issues. Also large TV's have dropped hugely in price over the past few years, and will do massively now that flat screen TV's have hit saturation, 3d was a flop (only reason for it is to stop people filming in cinemas) and there's no benefit of going 4K.

Since the digital switch over, there's a huge choice for a lot more people on channels, and the BBC has gone down from a 40% exposure to, in best case, 2%? We're pretty limited on what freeview can be picked up here and I'm sure it was around 50 channels.

I don't see why the BBC doesn't do as it does outside the UK and add adverts to it's programs and do away with the license fee. If the BBC really did make world class programs like it claims, then I'm sure it would survive very well in a competitive market. I've a sneaking feeling it wouldn't which is why we've been told the lie of 'detector vans' for 40 odd years.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: TV Licenses Reply with quote

dxmedia wrote:
I've a sneaking feeling it wouldn't which is why we've been told the lie of 'detector vans' for 40 odd years.


Not a lie, I've actually worked in a detector van when it was carried out by BT on behalf of the Beeb.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^^

So enlighten us as to how it works with modern flat screens!

OK, 40 years ago the old CRTs emitted a lot of radiation from the electron guns and deflector units inside which could be picked up with an antenna...But an LED display? forget it! Undetectable.

Regarding the original point, the law must be upheld and so long as the BBc is publicly funded, people must pay their license fee.

Buit why people would want to watch TV is beyond me. I haven't had one for 25 years and I don't think I've missed anything...

In reality, download-on-demand is here now. I'd rasther watch something in my own time rather than having my daily routine governed by the tellie.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not wrong - it was a while ago when I worked in BT!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim1064 wrote:
Regarding the original point, the law must be upheld and so long as the BBc is publicly funded, people must pay their license fee.


Agreed but there is the wider point of whether it should be a state sponsored fee, but that's not the question.

Jim1064 wrote:
Buit why people would want to watch TV is beyond me.


Agreed again.
I only watch TopGear and selected sports (6 Nations & the few F1s available) live/on the BBC. That is only because I have a TV now which we procured when the children were younger. Now that they watch (much) less TV and are away at school, I suspect broadcast TV will cease to be feature of our household in the near future and I would consider paying for that which I did want to watch live.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a TV you need a licence. Doesn't matter if it's not plugged in or even if it's still in its box you need a licence. You only need a device capable of receiving TV signals. Catch-up TV also requires a licence these days.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gadgetboy wrote:
If you have a TV you need a licence. Doesn't matter if it's not plugged in or even if it's still in its box you need a licence. You only need a device capable of receiving TV signals. Catch-up TV also requires a licence these days.


Sorry wrong.
Only broadcast live. Just being capable of doesn't count. TV and DVD does not require a licence nor does streaming from the interweb to a TV require a licence if not used for live/simultaneous with live broadcast.
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ15

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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gadgetboy wrote:
If you have a TV you need a licence. Doesn't matter if it's not plugged in or even if it's still in its box you need a licence. You only need a device capable of receiving TV signals. Catch-up TV also requires a licence these days.



Wrong.

You need a license to watch live tv.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gadgetboy wrote:
If you have a TV you need a licence. Doesn't matter if it's not plugged in or even if it's still in its box you need a licence. You only need a device capable of receiving TV signals. Catch-up TV also requires a licence these days.


But you don't need a license (yet) when you have an internet connected computer (as you do, for example, in Germany!)

In the UK, you can watch live TV on a computer - which require a license. IP addresses are unique so in principle anyone who watches live TV online can be checked if a current license is held. The BBC iPlayer checks if the IP adress is a UK one - if not then you don't get access.

Never mind those abroad who use a personal VPN to tunnel into the UK in order to obtain a UK IP to access the iPlayer...or to use Facebook in China Very Happy Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm paying over. £50 a month for sky plus the tv license and all I watch is 6 episodes of top gear a year. If there's a crime I must be the victim Very Happy

Even if I have a weak moment and turn it on all I get is the 'there are 2 things recording' message :/

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: TV Licenses Reply with quote

. wrote:

I have a simple, and in-expensive, solution - if they don't have a licence and refuse to pay, confiscate their TV - simples

Discuss............



No it's not simples....


I have a tv - I have no licence... if someone were to attempt to 'confiscate' my tv I would make them aware of the fact that to do so would be theft and I would prosecute them.

It is legal for me to own a TV, it is legal for me to watch that TV BUT it is illegal for me to watch live broadcasts on that TV without a licence. Seeing that there is very little watchable live broadcast on any channel there is no point in me getting a licence. Anything that I may want to watch I can watch on catchup which I do not need a licence for.

What I do hate is the harassment by TV licensing sending me threatening letters about buying a TV licence when I do not legally need one
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:
I'm paying over. £50 a month for sky plus the tv license and all I watch is 6 episodes of top gear a year. If there's a crime I must be the victim Very Happy


Especially as there were 7 episodes this year Cool

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand (well sit) corrected.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries mate.
(sitting watching the TV coz I have one at the mo!)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years ago the organisation I worked for was threatened with prosecution for not having a TV licence (I don't think they were actually prosecuted). There was a working TV connected to an aerial in some living accommodation provided by the organisation. The accommodation was occupied full time by a butler and a cook/housekeeper and on a regular basis by a visiting dignitary. The premises in question was the Judges House and was provided to accommodate the visiting judge for the then County Court (now the Crown Court). Would have been a tad embarrasing if the judge had been done for no TV licence!

I've got a TV and a TV licence, it lasts for three years and it's free on account of my old age - thank you taxpayers, your generosity knows no bounds.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jim1064"]
gadgetboy wrote:

In the UK, you can watch live TV on a computer - which require a license. IP addresses are unique so in principle anyone who watches live TV online can be checked if a current license is held. The BBC iPlayer checks if the IP adress is a UK one - if not then you don't get access.


Sorry but wrong on so many levels.

If you have a static IP address at home, then that single instance could be registered with aunty.

What about those on persistent IP addresses? What about DHCP assigned ones? What about mobile devices? You've mentioned VPN's there's whole hosts of reasons why that couldn't work. Also why pay the BBC anything?

It's semantics but there's also the definition of 'live'. Is digital radio (no one has mentioned the radio license in this thread, can you still get the radio only / BW TV ones?) live? Have you ever noticed the delay they have? If there's a delay between it being transmitted and received would that no longer be live? If you streamed TV and paused it for 5 seconds then watched, would that no longer be live? How long does a signal have to be delayed for before it isn't classed as live. Or if it's not instantaneous then it isn't? My thoughts are that there isn't a definition and if it was used as a defence it would be interesting. All of the processing between the camera and the transmission would cause a delay, so no TV is actually 'live'?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definition from TV licensing website

Quote:
You need to be covered by a valid TV Licence if you watch or record TV as it's being broadcast. This includes the use of devices such as a computer, laptop, mobile phone or DVD/video recorder.

A TV Licence is not just for TV sets

Watching TV on the internet
You need to be covered by a licence if you watch TV online at the same time as it's being broadcast on conventional TV in the UK or the Channel Islands.

Video recorders and digital recorders like Sky+
You need a licence if you record TV as it's broadcast, whether that's on a conventional video recorder or digital box.

Mobile phones
A licence covers you to watch TV as it's broadcast on a mobile phone, whether you're at home or out and about.

Technology - devices and online

With today’s technology, you can watch TV on more devices than ever, whenever it suits you best. This means a TV Licence doesn’t just cover you to watch TV at home on a TV set. You can also watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV, through all of these devices:

Computers, including laptops and tablets
Mobile phones
Games consoles
Digital boxes, e.g. Freeview, Sky, Virgin, BT Vision
DVD/VHS/Blu-ray recorders.

As long as the address where you live is licensed, you’re also covered to watch TV outside your home using any device powered solely by its own internal batteries. This includes your mobile phone, laptop and tablet.

Exception: If you only watch catch-up services online, then you don’t need a licence. For example, you don’t need one to use BBC iPlayer, or ITV player, to catch up on programmes after they have been shown on TV.


Think that pretty much covers it

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So by that definition, no tv is live.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

live doesn't come into it. If you watch or record, which includes pausing, a beeb programme whilst it is being broadcast then you need a licence. If you only watch on catch up then you don't.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst sitting on the bench watching the world go by, I've met a few people who have been sent to court for not having a TV licence. The stories they tell all have similar elements. They tend to be women with children where the male partner is no longer living with them. The children frequently have different fathers who don't really support the upbringing for the child or children.

The mum doesn't work, but then how could she when she is attempting to bring up 3+ children all on her own. Money is often tight with loans all over the place.

The TV is the childminder so that the mum can get on with cooking food, or tidying up the house. Education or lack of it is a very common issue.

So, what should you do with someone like that who doesn't have a TV licence? Fine them? They have no money to pay the fine. Give them unpaid work? Who's going to look after the children? Send them to prison? Who is going to look after the children?

I don't have the answers, but I think there must be a better way to sort this out.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remove the receiving device on the first occurrence, fine on a repeat offence as they clearly had the money to replace the device and made the choice not to also take a license. Looking after kids when you work full time and finding the time to cook / clean is no easier than it is for someone at home all day and reliant on the state and with the cost of child care at around £45 per day per child your often no better placed financially for it.

Or get rid of the license and allow the bbc to self fund as all the others do.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Define broadcast.

Once apon a time a camera was plugged into a mixing console which was plugged into a transmitter, a real time analogue signal was broadcast.

Live broadcast.

Nowadays, camera sends digital to a computer, processing takes place, feed gets split to backups, catchup, real time feed etc..., signal goes through dac, hits transmitter. This signal isn't real time.

That's not live. Samantecs but in a court with a lawyer?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought live in this argument meant at scheduled time of airing rather than when the image entered the camera lens. As you know iplayer etc won't let you watch it until sometime after the program has finished.

Actually that could be worded better... Waits for smart **** to come back with 'so if they're running late you don't need a license...' Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you got to love this one

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/18/noel...bc_n_4983449.html

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The programme is broadcast when the signal leaves the transmitter and travels at roughly the speed of light to the receiving device.
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