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Public Liability insurance for off road club

 
 
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simonallen
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Odometer: 1019
Location: In the s**t most of the time...


1997 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Public Liability insurance for off road club Reply with quote

Hi Guys,
The insurer we were using for public liability for the NNOC have decided that they wont be offering cover that suits our needs any more.

So we are looking around for companies who will sell us public liability cover, just to cover us if anything happens to the general public (there are public rights of way that run through a lot of off road sites) and cover us to carry passengers around a pre-set off road route once a year for charity.

Every vehicle that attends signs a disclaimer waiving the clubs resposibility if anything happens to the vehicles through their own or other peoples doings.

Everyone in the club committe is a volounteer, we dont make anything from it . the money we do make pays for the sites and insurance etc.

I would be very interested to know who people use in their clubs, and a rough price if it's not being too nosey (we were paying around £480 a year for £1m cover).
Cheers,
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LlaniGraham
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Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing you aren't an MSA Registered Club?
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MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales
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simonallen
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
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1997 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No we aren't - and don't intend to be. We were many moons ago but they imposed too many restrictions to the way we run things.
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LlaniGraham
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your only option is going to talk to various insurance companies, such as NFU. However I would suggest that your £1million cover is now inadequate. The PL cover we had on our small shop had recently been increased to £5mill, mainly due to increased claim levels.
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MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales
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simonallen
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Odometer: 1019
Location: In the s**t most of the time...


1997 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've sent a few emails off to various companies and am waiting responses from them. Three that have got back to me are saying that it's not something they do, axa, zurich and another one I forget. We need standard PL insurance for a specialist activity seems to be the problem. I as wondering if people knew of any specific companies who deal with motorsport as a risk as it's quite time consuming spending 40 mins per company on hold just to be told that they won't cover us.

The 1m thing is just what was set up before - i will leave it to the insurance company to decide how much cover we need and what they are happy to supply us with. I have no idea about how much claims can cost for specific things having not dealt with this kind of thing before.

Cheers
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Mr Tyre
Mr Tyre


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Odometer: 4957
Location: Darlington Co Durham



PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could try REIS www.reis.co.uk 0115 9651020.
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is more to MSA cover than simple PLI, there is also exemption/protection from prosecution under the RTA should there be an incident.

I've been through this on several occasions and there are a few things any Club or motorsport event (of any any type, competitive or otherwise) organiser should be aware of:

RTA - In the case of an accident involving vehicles, the Road Traffic Act applies even though it is, by definition, not on the highway. In the same way that an injury causing collision in a private car park must still be reported to the Police, an injury during an off road event will also involve the Police who may investigate and bring a prosecution against the organisers. If the Club is part of the MSA and run under their Permit system then you are protected from that.

Volunteering - it does not matter if officials/marshals/organisers are paid or not. If you are organising the event or seen or deemed to be organising then the Law will undoubtedly treat you as such.

Signing on sheets - It does not matter what someone signs prior to an event if the worst should happen you can be guaranteed that they or their dependants will sue you as organiser and/or anyone else who could possibly be considered as being involved in organising the event. Only MSA and IOPD (Institute of Professional Drivers) documentation is proven to cover you.

Insurance - what does the PLI policy cover? Does it cover the participants and if so what against? What about Landowners and passers-by? What about the organisers? What are you covered for and what documentation and procedures might you be required to follow to ensure you're fully covered and, most importantly, have you gone through this with the underwriters in fine detail so they are satisfied you are running safe events (to limit their risk)? Full disclosure applies to ALL insurance policies.

The Argyll and Tay Forest Challenges were run under private insurance as was Scotland West All Terrain Club and once we understood what might happen to us as organisers if there was a serious accident we had no hesitation in going down the MSA route despite the silly restrictions and difficulties associated with a Governing Body that does not understand the maverick nature of leisure 4x4 events.

With SWATC there was a serious accident where a unimog rolled down a slope and damn near killed the occupants. I was the organiser that day (and a Club official) and once the helicopter and ambulance had left the Police started asking about our procedures, our safety briefings etc in some detail before finally saying that as the injured and their families accepted it as an accident no further action would be taken. Had they not, however, I would have faced possible charges under the RTA even though we were insured.

Do you remember Andrew Guinan? He was a good friend of ours in SWCC, a lovely lad of only 23 years old who was killed in a freak 4x4 incident in his Whitbread buggy after rolling down a 200' hillside. He was a serious competitor, and excellent driver, and in no way silly or wild. He is still sorely missed. Despite MSA coverage, there was a full investigation into every last detail of the event with MSA procedures and how they were implemented by the Club coming under close scrutiny during the inquest. The Club Officials had many months of uncertainty before everything was investigated and simply having a PLI policy did not protect them.

As someone with almost 15 years involvement in organising 4x4 Clubs and events of all types and seeing the crazy, yahoo behaviour of those who take part, I will no longer be an Official in any Club or event that is not a full on competition unless MSA affiliated because I have too much to lose.

I'd suggest you need £10 million of cover as a minimum in any case.

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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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.
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Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if you don't want to be an MSA registered Club you may be able to use theuir insurers who, obviously, understand Motorsport.

Their details are in the Blue book http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/bl...Appendix_2%29.pdf

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Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
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mmgemini
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might I also suggest whilst on the insurance subject that if you are not a limited Liability club, then you make yourself one. Otherwise members could be put in a serious financial situation
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mike FOAK

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

I can cause trouble in an empty house !!!
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Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Odometer: 40007
Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast


2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ good advice ^
__________________________________
Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook!
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mudplugga
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004
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Location: Shropshire mostly, and Mid Wales



PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was heavily involved with a club for many years, and they are MSA Registered and became a Limited Company while I was a committee member, and personally it's the only way I would involve myself with the running of any motorsport club.
The MSA insurance compliments the clubs insurance, and there are many other benefits that far outweigh the 'pain in the ****' rules and regulations that many people see as pointless. And the truth is, most of those rules and regulations can be covered easily by some work at the outset to produce generic risk assessments etc so you only have to fill the names of the CoC, Marshals and the site name on the day. Having the safety policies and procedures on paper and up to date goes a long way to keeping the club and its committee from getting sued or even imprisoned.
The big 'but' in all this is that the committee / CoC's have to maintain adherence to the rules, they have to stop stupidity and irresponsibility in its tracks, because if some 12 year old kid is tearing around in their dads V8 trialer between sections and runs someone over - then a lot of people, not just the driver and the adult who should be responsible for them, will be in deep trouble.

The culture now is that there is no such thing as an accident, everything is treated as an incident that should have been prevented. And that all practicable measures should have been taken to prevent the incident from happening. Having insurance doesn't protect you from negligence, and that's the premise any investigation will start from.

It's not easy, it is a big responsibility to be a part of running a club. We do it because we love the sport and the driving, but we have to accept that "Motorsport Is Dangerous" and it becomes our responsibility to actively minimize that danger. If that means becoming unpopular by stopping all unsafe behaviours and stupidity, then that's the way it has to be.

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http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337

"Roof, doors, wheels. It's the way I drive."
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RichardD
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at a local club play day a short while ago and I saw stupid and irresponsible behaviour of a type not witnessed for years; no seat belts, kids rattling around open boots without seats never mind belts amongst tools boxes, kids running around cars during recoveries ....

I'm not a huge one for slavishly following rules but some things should be sacrosanct Shocked

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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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simonallen
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Odometer: 1019
Location: In the s**t most of the time...


1997 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how the club is set up regarding limited liability but will look into that.

The drivers all sign an official disclaimer which was written and varified by the previous insurance company which says that any injury or damage caused it entirely at drivers risk not the club. We only insure ourselves for injury to people not involved in the event.

I believe what happened regarding the msa in previous years is that because we aren't a competing club we had to get permits for promotional days? which I believe meant the msa were trying to get us to run "follow the leader" style.
This was years ago though, and I was just a boy Laughing I've just had this dumped on me as I can use the internet and thats mostly how things are done now. The people who originally set up the liability cover are no longer associated with the club and the policy has just been renewed every year since then.
I've been working with the previous broker who have found another company who are willing to offer cover, and have recieved quite a hefty form to fill out today which at first glance seems to be more suited towards track days which is what i've been finding with everyone so far hence my question on here to see if anyone knew any off road friendly companies. I have touched on the subject of the msa with the comittee and the long standing members have made it completely clear it isn't going to be considered Confused
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Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, in my experience, disclaimers are normally not worth the paper they're written on.
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Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook!
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RichardD
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many "old timers" in clubs are blinkered against the MSA.

SWATC is MSA affiliated and runs regular punch hunts, treasure hunts and promo days all of which look for all the world like ordinary pay and play days.

Insuring yourselves only against claims of personal injury to 3rd parties is, in my view, totally inadequate and I assume it covers a lot more than that. IMO you need cover against claims of property damage and personal injury against the organisers, members and officials of the Club made by anyone including those attending the event.

Last night I was reminded of an incident where a former SWATC member had his jeep scuffed by a fellow member's Lada or 90 (I cant remember which) when the handbrake failed and rolled back down a hill. The former member sued for the £300 repair!

As Ian says most disclaimers are worthless until tested in Court and then it is a lottery. The worry will always be what happens to organisers and officials in the event of a catastrophy. I would not want to be in the dock because some 'old timers' don't want to be stuck with basic common sense rules that they probably normally follow.

Odds are that if the worst were to happen those who object to the MSA will the first to run away when the smelly stuff hits!

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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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mudplugga
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not rely on a disclaimer, a court will not give them any credence, they will try to discover the truth behind any incident and then make a judgement.

Nothing - will protect you from negligence, and negligence means keeping control of an event and stopping people standing up in the back of trucks and hanging on to the roll cages, sitting on the tailgates of pick ups while they are moving, smoking while refuelling and all the other stupidity that happens, and it does happen. How pay and play days survive is a mystery to me? The idiocy you see will never be covered by any insurance, disclaimer or not.

People sue the council's because they trip over an uneven paving slab, that's the culture we are now living in; people believe that every bad thing that happens is someone elses fault, and they demand redress.

Don't get me wrong Simon, clubs survive and some prosper, but now things have to be done right, and shown - documented - that they are being done right. Committee members with a role such as 'Safety Officer' have to perform their duties, they have to get out there and stop the idiots maiming themselves and others, because they will if you let them.

To me, the big problem is not the trial sections, safari circuit or challenge sections. The big problem lies between the sections and away from the competition action, that's when people jump on to moving vehicles and hang on, and the temptation is to stick your foot down and 'go for it', we've all done it because it's so much fun. But don't think for one minute the insurance would pay up for any injuries when incidents happen as a result, they will investigate. They will search youtube and forums for evidence, it's happened already. Which is why I wonder how pay and play survives.

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http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337

"Roof, doors, wheels. It's the way I drive."
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simonallen
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
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Location: In the s**t most of the time...


1997 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have filled in all the paperwork that was sent to me by the broker today. They asked a lot of very in depth questions and ive answered them to the best of my knowledge. Have also attached two a4 sheets detailing other things I thought should be brought to the attention. Stuff like recoveries etc if a shackle comes off one of our marshalls cars etc etc. The questions, i could tell were aimed towards track day or competition type motorsport but i've included all the information they have asked for and more.

A lot of the points mentioned above were included in the questions asked and I've include the rest of whats been sugested here in the added notes. I have sent the forms to everyone else on the comittee and will see if anyone notices anything wrong or I have missed - but am confident that if the broker can find us a quote with all the factors I have mentioned taken into account that we will have a 100000000% better cover than what we had before.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll see what comes of the forms I send back.
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mudplugga
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want any help with generic risk assessments, safety policies and procedures Simon come and see me, I've got them all and they can be easily modified and brought up to date. I did them all for our club a few years ago.
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"Roof, doors, wheels. It's the way I drive."
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jeepmadmike
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't offer any help but I feel for club organisers today (any club not just motor sport), if the worst happens you are all in deep until the verdict of the inquest!

Take the big accident on the M5 at Taunton a couple of years ago on guy Fawkes night, the fireworks display near the road was blamed to a great extent- the organiser was charged with multiple manslaughter which a year later reduced to charge on health and safety grounds which lucky for him he was found not guilty.

I'm amazed people will run motor sport events outside of the MSA, yes it doesn't totally protect the organisers but it helps massively.

I'm not sure how the horsey world get on with insurance but I've know more injurys from people falling off and being kicked by those stupid things than any 4 wheeled sport!

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Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.
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