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wowyswittowedtwuck Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Odometer: 122
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:52 pm Post subject: Where does the problem lie with SVA and bobtails?
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Sorry if this has been asked a hundred times before but i cant seem to get into my head where the problem is with bobtailing.
Ive heard is you get stopped by VOSA the car could end up getting crushed or be made " off road only "
If i was to do a bobtail - what must i do to make it pass a SVA and keep it road legal ?
If it was to lift it / stronger axles / winch bumpers etc would i do this before the SVA or could i do it after if it doesnt come under the SVA as i thought it was just altering the chassis ?
Hope someone can help me understand a bit better
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N.R.G97 Off-Road Guru
Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Odometer: 1502 Location: somerset.
1966 Land Rover Hybrid
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject:
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As far as im aware it doesnt effect bob tails as you need an SVA if it is modded between axles- I.E. shortening the wheelbase, however someone else may know better.
Also I assume you mean fit ashcroft insides? As opposed to changing the axles?
Changning axles tends to mean significant changes to suspension, which would lead to needing an SVA while fitting some ashcroft bits wouldnt effect it in that respect.
Lift kits dont matter as far as im aware- however it wouldnt surprise me if they could pull you up on it
__________________________________ landrover 2a hybrid
http://www.wellspacedout.co.uk/home
http://www.winch-it.com/index.php
http://www.profendersuspension.com/ |
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wowyswittowedtwuck Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Odometer: 122
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:00 pm Post subject:
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N.R.G97 wrote: | As far as im aware it doesnt effect bob tails as you need an SVA if it is modded between axles- I.E. shortening the wheelbase, however someone else may know better.
Also I assume you mean fit ashcroft insides? As opposed to changing the axles?
Changning axles tends to mean significant changes to suspension, which would lead to needing an SVA while fitting some ashcroft bits wouldnt effect it in that respect.
Lift kits dont matter as far as im aware- however it wouldnt surprise me if they could pull you up on it |
See ive heard alot of things . I heard touch with chassis - instant SVA .
Yeah just the internals - was thinking of portals but dout it ! getting a bit carried away .
Can anyone else comment on lift kits.
And where does the problem lie that do many peoples bobtails have been scrapped / taken off the road ?
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Munkee Off-Road Guru
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Odometer: 1505 Location: Hampshire
1999 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:18 am Post subject:
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It's now IVA, not SVA.
chassis mods mean IVA. Ask Dave Jones (bits 4 Vits) about the fabled 'Stumpy' bobtailed GV... Deceased.
An axle swap should be fine, unless you go silly (IFS>solid axle) it's the configuration that's important there. Same goes for lift kit.
Engine swap is also fine.
However, if you change too much of the original car, VOSA may insist on an IVA - it works on a points system.
__________________________________ Steve
In America, some fundamental Christians believe that the world is only 5000 years old, In England, some of us drink in pubs older than that. |
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N.R.G97 Off-Road Guru
Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Odometer: 1502 Location: somerset.
1966 Land Rover Hybrid
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:09 am Post subject:
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Munkee wrote: | It's now IVA, not SVA.
chassis mods mean IVA. Ask Dave Jones (bits 4 Vits) about the fabled 'Stumpy' bobtailed GV... Deceased.
An axle swap should be fine, unless you go silly (IFS>solid axle) it's the configuration that's important there. Same goes for lift kit.
Engine swap is also fine.
However, if you change too much of the original car, VOSA may insist on an IVA - it works on a points system. |
But to change the engine or swap axles you will almost gaurunteed have to modify the chassis.
Id say an axle swap could be more dangerous than a simple shortened chassis, having seen some axle swaps!!
__________________________________ landrover 2a hybrid
http://www.wellspacedout.co.uk/home
http://www.winch-it.com/index.php
http://www.profendersuspension.com/ |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:52 am Post subject:
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The facts are rather straightforward. An IVA is required if there is doubt over the identity of the vehicle
Changes to the wheelbase, ie making large changes to the configuration of the main chassis between the axles will require an IVA to prove the identity of the vehicle rather than the safety.
When I built my buggy from a Y2k TD5 90 I had a conversation with the DVLA who told me that cutting off the overhangs, removing/replacing cross members for winch carrying ones would not alter the ID (as long as the original chassis number was not damaged). Moving and or replacing, suspension mounts, body mounts or outriggers are NOT considered altering the chassis for ID purposes and neither does replacing the body need an IVA.
What I would suggest though is to do the bobtail job first then get an MOT which will cement the vehicle's ID in the system. Changing axles makes no difference at all to anything official but I would not change chassis, body style type and engine all at the same time.
Please remember that you have all the usual obligations to maintain your car in a safe condition for road use whether or not it needs an MOT (for whatever reason) and your insurer must be informed of all changes to the vehicle or you could find yourself in trouble if you need to make a claim.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Munkee Off-Road Guru
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Odometer: 1505 Location: Hampshire
1999 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:03 pm Post subject:
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My engine swap required zero chassis mods. (VW diesel into Vitara). Equally, installing some Hilux axles under an SJ doesn't necessarily need chassis mods. Installing Dana axles under a 90 would be fine *IF* you use the existing radius arm front/balljointed rear arrangement. If you installed a radically different system (eg. triangulated 4 link) it wouldn't be the same configuration (and would certainly involve replacing/adding crossmembers) and may then be non-standard enough to warrant an IVA.
In any case, chassis mods don't include welding an extra bracket onto the chassis, Vosa mean altering the main chassis rails or crossmembers. They're not concerned about the odd bracket here and there.
Strenghthening is fine. Welding on new/removing exisiting structural outriggers/crossmembers is not. Adding/removing length from the main chassis rails is not accepted by VOSA.
From here; http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/vosalaw.htm
For radically altered vehicles a points system is used. Vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original identity and avoid the need for an SVA test. The following values are allocated to the major components used:
chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point
That's a pretty good article, which sums it up well. My Vitara scores 9 points, or arguably 11, as my axles are like-for-like replacements (same vehicle, different model, but essentially a standard axle)
HTH
__________________________________ Steve
In America, some fundamental Christians believe that the world is only 5000 years old, In England, some of us drink in pubs older than that. |
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Munkee Off-Road Guru
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Odometer: 1505 Location: Hampshire
1999 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:06 pm Post subject:
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Richard posted while I was typing^^^^^
And there is the major problem. Vosa don't seem to give a clear answer on anything!!
Two written answers can be contradictory.
If you're in any doubt, get it in writing yourself from them before modifying.
__________________________________ Steve
In America, some fundamental Christians believe that the world is only 5000 years old, In England, some of us drink in pubs older than that. |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject:
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Munkee wrote: | Richard posted while I was typing^^^^^
And there is the major problem. Vosa don't seem to give a clear answer on anything!!
Two written answers can be contradictory.
If you're in any doubt, get it in writing yourself from them before modifying. |
I found and still find exactly that problem. VOSA and DVLA are not really connected and it's not that left hand does know what the right hand is doing but that the left hand only has a hazy notion in the first place..
If you imagine that my Whitbread buggy only has a Defender bonnet to identify it visually as a Landy and it flew through an MOT and for the year I ran it on the road I got nary a look from anyone (in an official capacity) then it is the paperwork and the lack of a 'cut and shut' chassis that matters.
UNB has zero over hang front and back with 18" of rear and 12" of front chassis hacked off and new X-members welded in. None of the welded on suspension mounts were changed - I deliberately didn't go for 100" wheelbase to avoid IVA hassles.
As Munkee says, get written confirmation of what you can/can't do in your specific case and then stick to it. Everyone I know in our situation has found it easiest to do things in stages. Do the body work and change the V5, then do the engine .....
In this case better to ask permission than beg forgiveness.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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wowyswittowedtwuck Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Odometer: 122
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:29 pm Post subject:
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thanks guys, few bits of good info .
Its basically just bobtailing, x2 winch bumpers, body and suspension lift.
The only bit that involves touching the chassis and x memebers would be the bobtail . As its the original body and chassis aswell this surly shouldnt be an issue.
Its a case of cutting the chassis / body then welding it all back up again - slightly more advanced but thats the basic principle .
Where has been the issue before ? Is it the fact people have done cheap jobs or holding bts in with 8000 pop rivits ??
If the job has been done well and welded properly am i right in saying there sure then be no issue ?
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject:
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wowyswittowedtwuck wrote: |
Where has been the issue before ? Is it the fact people have done cheap jobs or holding bts in with 8000 pop rivits ?? |
The rules came about purely as a reaction to 'cut and shut' ringers where dodgy dealers would buy 2 similar writeoff cars one with smashed at the front and the other at the back, cut them in half and weld the good bits together then selling it to some poor sod who ends up with a deathtrap.
It is purely about identity - build quality is not the issue unfortunately.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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wowyswittowedtwuck Just got MTs
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Odometer: 122
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject:
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The identity will remain the same , as it will be the same car, just a little shorter. So in theory. I should be ok, i might right to vosa to see if they can confirm - i did email them but heard nothing back
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Munkee Off-Road Guru
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Odometer: 1505 Location: Hampshire
1999 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:24 am Post subject:
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As it's a modification to the main chassis rails, VOSA may well insist on an IVA.
That is the bottom line.
As said, Dave Jones (Bits 4 vits) lost a Grand vitara project as VOSA insisted on a (then) SVA. It was mainly just a lifted truck with bumpers... and bobtailed.
Get it in writing from VOSA before you start.
__________________________________ Steve
In America, some fundamental Christians believe that the world is only 5000 years old, In England, some of us drink in pubs older than that. |
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:14 am Post subject:
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Youl be lucky to get a definitive answer from vosa/dvla as it seems no one has a clue but from what i gather any modifacation to a chassis other than a replacement original spec part (like an outrigger or crossmember) requires an iva so a bobtail will require it but then how many hybrid taxed exsemt td5 90 have got away with it for years so in my eyes its a joke and just another way of justifying getting money out of joe public
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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simonallen Off-Road Guru
Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Odometer: 1019 Location: In the s**t most of the time...
1997 Lada Niva
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:17 am Post subject:
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It may not have started out as a build quality thing - but it certainly is now. The trouble with many older cars is that they wouldn't pass an IVA even in standard form (radiusses of edges etc) so in a lot of cases the dead horse is well and truly being flogged
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:30 am Post subject:
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Munkee wrote: |
As said, Dave Jones (Bits 4 vits) lost a Grand vitara project as VOSA insisted on a (then) SVA. It was mainly just a lifted truck with bumpers... and bobtailed.
. |
Which involved shortening the chassis between the axles ..... I did more than that to mine and had no IVA problems because the ONLY thing I didn't do was cut or weld the chassis between the axles.
I have welded on new bits and cut off old unused ones, removed and replaced crossmembers in different positions and made it look totally unlike a Landrover BUT all the things that allow the car to be identified are untouched engine, gearbox and mid-axle chassis.
In general I'm supportive of this legislation as it keeps some very dodgy cars off the road and I include many 4x4s in that description.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Munkee Off-Road Guru
Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Odometer: 1505 Location: Hampshire
1999 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:33 am Post subject:
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RichardD wrote: | Munkee wrote: |
As said, Dave Jones (Bits 4 vits) lost a Grand vitara project as VOSA insisted on a (then) SVA. It was mainly just a lifted truck with bumpers... and bobtailed.
. |
Which involved shortening the chassis between the axles ..... |
Nope. just bobtailed. the wheelbase wasn't touched.
__________________________________ Steve
In America, some fundamental Christians believe that the world is only 5000 years old, In England, some of us drink in pubs older than that. |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject:
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Having re-read the Stumpy threads I would change my advice.
JFDI and wait for the storm to break if it ever does. If you are not touching the chassis between the axles and not damaging the stamped chassis number then it probably will never come up.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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. Difflock Royalty
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Odometer: 40007 Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast
2009 Land Rover 110 CSW
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:54 pm Post subject:
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RichardD wrote: | If you are not touching the chassis between the axles and not damaging the stamped chassis number then it probably will never come up. |
I think you're wasting your breath...........................
__________________________________ Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook! |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject:
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Yeah, it's a bad habit
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Alex90 Articulating
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Odometer: 861 Location: preston, Lancashire
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:09 pm Post subject:
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Makes for interesting reading. I had a chat to Dave at llama 4x4 about this when I was ordering some shocks. Basically the feeling is people tend to say things need and IVA just to cover their own a$$ in the event of something happening. With an engineer's report to verify the work is done to a high standard I dont think you will have any trouble. Another thing to consider is the legality of winch bumpers being fitted and if you have an accident and it kills someone what happens then? (EU approved bumper rubbish). Some say winch bumpers are classed as tools therefore are exempt but I dunno it's very Chinese whisperish.
__________________________________ 54 reg l200 warrior in black. 2" lift, rough country shocks with prototype bolt on relocation brackets, ralliart power upgrade, egr blanked, realtree camo truckman top, straight through side exit exhaust. |
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Xpajun Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:46 pm Post subject:
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Begs the question - how many people have been killed by a winch bumper?
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Toseland Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Oct 2011 Odometer: 3209 Location: cardiff
1999 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject:
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Alex90 wrote: | Makes for interesting reading. I had a chat to Dave at llama 4x4 about this when I was ordering some shocks. Basically the feeling is people tend to say things need and IVA just to cover their own a$$ in the event of something happening. With an engineer's report to verify the work is done to a high standard I dont think you will have any trouble. Another thing to consider is the legality of winch bumpers being fitted and if you have an accident and it kills someone what happens then? (EU approved bumper rubbish). Some say winch bumpers are classed as tools therefore are exempt but I dunno it's very Chinese whisperish. |
sorry but Fk the EU, with a large poll... as long as the bumpers conform to the UK fitment (MOT) guidelines, then there is little or no comeback.
the largest percentage of pedestrian fatalities occurs on A pillars and windscreens anyhow, head injuries.
looking at the majority of winch bumpers however, most of them are perfectly safe and have little or no protrusion..
anyhow.
__________________________________ I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..
The feeling you get when you first smash your shaft out, is one you will never forget.. especially if you do it in front of 10 guys. |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject:
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Never mind winch bumpers, what chance do you have against a normal bog standard Defender?
Not really the point tho', rules are created to solve a problem and inadvertently suck in loads of others but the authorities don't care.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject:
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i did email them but heard nothing back
Hi,
Put the same questions on paper, keep a copy, stick on stamp, pop into pillar box. Wait as long as long as you can, but at least ten working days, then send a copy of the copy to the CEO at VOSA with another letter asking his intervention. CEOs hate written complaints - I believe they affect bonuses.
The original SVA rules were invoked when a vehicle was REBUILT or RADICALLY altered. How far does a vehicle need to be dismantled, before it needs to be REBUILT? What is considered RADICAL alteration? Don't ask me!
Me? I would take out decent Legal Assistance insurance before starting.
And I would appeal against any Civil Service decision to do something nasty to my truck. My mate Fred took his conviction to Appeal, and won. DVLC appealed against that decision ... and lost. You my now stop on the way to a pre-booked MOT, and spend 20 minutes chatting up the girl in the tobaconist.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject:
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i did email them but heard nothing back
Hi,
Put the same questions on paper, keep a copy, stick on stamp, pop into pillar box. Wait as long as long as you can, but at least ten working days, then send a copy of the copy to the CEO at VOSA with another letter asking his intervention. CEOs hate written complaints - I believe they affect bonuses.
The original SVA rules were invoked when a vehicle was REBUILT or RADICALLY altered. How far does a vehicle need to be dismantled, before it needs to be REBUILT? What is considered RADICAL alteration? Don't ask me!
Me? I would take out decent Legal Assistance insurance before starting.
And I would appeal against any Civil Service decision to do something nasty to my truck. My mate Fred took his conviction to Appeal, and won. DVLC appealed against that decision ... and lost. You my now stop on the way to a pre-booked MOT, and spend 20 minutes chatting up the girl in the tobaconist.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject:
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i did email them but heard nothing back
Hi,
Put the same questions on paper, keep a copy, stick on stamp, pop into pillar box. Wait as long as long as you can, but at least ten working days, then send a copy of the copy to the CEO at VOSA with another letter asking his intervention. CEOs hate written complaints - I believe they affect bonuses.
The original SVA rules were invoked when a vehicle was REBUILT or RADICALLY altered. How far does a vehicle need to be dismantled, before it needs to be REBUILT? What is considered RADICAL alteration? Don't ask me!
Me? I would take out decent Legal Assistance insurance before starting.
And I would appeal against any Civil Service decision to do something nasty to my truck. My mate Fred took his conviction to Appeal, and won. DVLC appealed against that decision ... and lost. You my now stop on the way to a pre-booked MOT, and spend 20 minutes chatting up the girl in the tobaconist.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject:
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i did email them but heard nothing back
Hi,
Put the same questions on paper, keep a copy, stick on stamp, pop into pillar box. Wait as long as long as you can, but at least ten working days, then send a copy of the copy to the CEO at VOSA with another letter asking his intervention. CEOs hate written complaints - I believe they affect bonuses.
The original SVA rules were invoked when a vehicle was REBUILT or RADICALLY altered. How far does a vehicle need to be dismantled, before it needs to be REBUILT? What is considered RADICAL alteration? Don't ask me!
Me? I would take out decent Legal Assistance insurance before starting.
And I would appeal against any Civil Service decision to do something nasty to my truck. My mate Fred took his conviction to Appeal, and won. DVLC appealed against that decision ... and lost. You my now stop on the way to a pre-booked MOT, and spend 20 minutes chatting up the girl in the tobaconist.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject:
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i did email them but heard nothing back
Hi,
Put the same questions on paper, keep a copy, stick on stamp, pop into pillar box. Wait as long as long as you can, but at least ten working days, then send a copy of the copy to the CEO at VOSA with another letter asking his intervention. CEOs hate written complaints - I believe they affect bonuses.
The original SVA rules were invoked when a vehicle was REBUILT or RADICALLY altered. How far does a vehicle need to be dismantled, before it needs to be REBUILT? What is considered RADICAL alteration? Don't ask me!
Me? I would take out decent Legal Assistance insurance before starting.
And I would appeal against any Civil Service decision to do something nasty to my truck. My mate Fred took his conviction to Appeal, and won. DVLC appealed against that decision ... and lost. You my now stop on the way to a pre-booked MOT, and spend 20 minutes chatting up the girl in the tobaconist.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject:
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Hi,
Sorry! My PC indicated that my reply had not been sent.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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