Scottish independence - a serious discussion?

[Dawn Anderson]

[DD]

[RichardD]

[Dawn Anderson]

Nail, hammer, head Richard. The issue is not Scottish independence but a lack of vision beyond the London bubble the political elite live in. It isn't just The Scottish people who feel aggrieved by upper class twits like George Osborne and the like saying "we're all in this together" whilst sitting on a huge amount of inherited wealth and transmitting a massive and palpable air of "you oiks are actually beneath my contempt and I'm in this for personal glory". Makes my blood boil but I'm not sure Scottish independence is the right answer. Alex Salmond is a snake oil salesman of the highest order who appears to think that the Scottish people don't understand that and can't see through the dirty rhetorical tricks he's using to blame "the English" for everything. I also dislike him trying to claim that independence is the only way Scotland will gain control of the tax system. Income tax is being devolved in 2015 whether or not the referendum returns a yes result. Corporation tax is his holy grail but we don't have a big enough economy to support what he wants to do with that. We also have a huge number of benefits claimants and relatively few taxpayers either individual or corporate to support those payments. The vast majority of Scottish workers are employed on the public sector on relatively low wages. Where's the money coming from Alex? And don't bring up North Sea oil. That's the biggest lie of all. I have no respect for politicians of any stripe but he's the worst of the lot.

[RichardD]

[LlaniGraham]

Interesting take on Scottish indepedence by one of the Liberal Welsh peers, stating that it is probable that if it happens the Tories will be in power for ever, as it is slewing away from the current mass of opposition to them:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/de...uld-surge-6655302
Scotland exit from the United Kingdom would condemn Wales to “colonial” rule by a Tory-dominated England and drive federalists such as himself to consider Welsh independence, Lord Roberts of Llandudno has warned.

The Liberal Democrat peer – one of the best-known Welshmen in Westminster – appealed to the Scots to stay in UK when they vote in the September independence referendum during a House of Lords debate.

He said: “If Scotland leaves the UK, 59 Scottish Members of Parliament will be removed from the House of Commons, 58 of whom are not Conservatives—only one is a Conservative.”

Warning of a “perpetual Tory majority” in the rest of the United Kingdom, he said: “In 1906, 1997 and 2001, not a single Conservative was elected in Wales. Therefore, a party which in 140 years has never returned the largest number of MPs in Wales would be ruling in a country which has rejected it time and time again.

“Usually in Wales the Conservatives will have, say, 20% of the vote, so 80% of the people of Wales will be subject to an alien party, as well, of course, as being subject to England. This would be colonial rule returned.

“The immediate cry would be for Welsh independence. People such as me who are in favour of a federal solution for the whole UK – we have not really spoken about that – might join the independence bandwagon, because Wales would be ruled by a party that had never been in the majority there, and that represented only 20% of its people.”

He concluded: “On this occasion, however, I think that I can speak for the people of Wales of all parties if I ask them, ‘Scotland, please stay with us, because otherwise we will see the dissolution – the end – of the UK as we know it.’

Former Conservative Assembly leader Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, a member of the Silk Commission, called for a constitutional convention to secure a lasting settlement for the UK – a key demand of First Minister Carwyn Jones.

He said: “In the wake of the vote there will need to be a constitutional convention to look at the powers, not least the fiscal powers, of the constituent powers of the United Kingdom, and at the English dimension which, so far, is the dog that has barely barked on devolution issues... Part Two of the Silk report is due to be presented to Westminster in March and will deal with the appropriate place for decisions on other policy issues.

“That, too, will be relevant in any constitutional settlement. In short, the vote in Scotland is a watershed. I hope that following the vote – and a decisive No vote – there will be such a convention to work out a lasting constitutional settlement for all parts of our kingdom, not least for England.”

A Welsh Government spokesman said: “We welcome Nick Bourne’s continuing support for the need to discuss a lasting constitutional settlement for the UK. The First Minister has made his vision clear for the future governance of the UK, and Wales’ place within it. Once the outcome of the referendum is known, Wales must have a place at the table when the substantive debate on our future begins.”

[dxmedia]

Yeah, I mentioned that on the first page of this thread. The watering down of rUK politics will cease to happen and Westminster will become a single party system.

Maybe it will be enough to give the voters in rUK a kick up the **** to actually go to the voting station and vote for... oh...

[.]

The important questions are; will I need a passport to go to Drumclog and can I get duty free on the way back?

[RichardD]

[.]

I wonder how many more business leaders will follow Bob Dudley and speak out against Scottish independence?

[Dawn Anderson]

Not many I would have thought. They're all too busy consulting their accountants and lawyers about the quickest and cheapest way to get the hell out of Dodge.

[RichardD]

Latest "what is the BBC up to" rant:

Why is it that when the SW England and South Wales have storms that the BBC uses the headline "UK battered by more storms" but when Scotland and North England it's "Scotland and North England"?

Again it seems they want to show UK as England & Wales and Scotland as separate. Now I understand that Scotland is partially separate but the subtle use of language in news reporting seems to be being used to subtly support independence.

I just wonder ....

[dxmedia]

And no mention at all that the Scottish Ski resorts have more snow than the Alps (and I think twice that of the last winter Olympics).

The lifts were buried in the massive snow storm over the last couple of days on both the east and west coast. For those who don't ski, the cables on the lifts are 2 - 3 meters up.



Oh, sorry, flooding down south, there is no other weather.

[jojo]

Dunno what you lot or the BBC are on about. OK, so it has been a bit windy and it has rained a bit, but here in the East Midlands (EM is a BBC region not representative of anywhere in the UK) there have been no problems with the weather, just a bit dull as you would expect for the time of year although quite mild - and certainly nothing challenging for Land Rovers or any proper 4x4s!!! A few puddles and muddy patches, but that's about it - shame - I could do with a challenge.

As Richard says "What is up with the BBC?" I guess that a strike on the tube (that's where toothpaste comes from) is more important than real life outside their little bubble.

J

[.]

Pleeeeeeease don't leave us

[.]

(Well written speech IMO)

[RichardD]

It's funny but I'm hard pressed to find anyone I know who says they intend to vote yes.

I have a decent number if Indy type pals but even they are concerned about the lack of detail in the SNP proposals and are minded to vote no because the practicalities are not being resolved before the vote.

[dxmedia]

[DD]

Where's "here" DX?

[RichardD]

It will be interesting to see which area votes which way - we may end up with a Scottish SW/NE split

[dxmedia]

South west, but lot of family north east.

[DD]

Ok.

Weird, I struggle to meet anyone who'd vote yes up here. Most of them are too worried that the oil industry would shut down. Sometimes the devil you know..........

[dxmedia]

That'll be the difference. I don't know anyone up there who works in oil. Keep on meaning too myself, Aberdeen has a fantastic work climate West of you and north, the fishing guys can't wait to get as far away from Westminster as possible!

[DD]

I was at the rugby yesterday and heard of 2 very senior managers,with oil companies, who have sold their houses in aberdeen , bought property in England instead, and are renting in Aberdeen. All because they believe aberdeen would close for business if the yes vote goes through. That is food for thought!......

[gadgetboy]

No, it's hearsay and means nothing.

I've still yet to hear a reasoned, considered argument for Scotland to stay in the UK.

Currency. I spent most of the 90s and early 00s travelling the world working in international finance and a country can pretty much choose any currency it wants and the host nation can do pretty much buggr all about it. A recent example would be Zimbabwe switching to USD.

Banking. Two of the biggest banks in the UK are scottish.

RBS:

The Royal Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland No 90312. Registered Office: 36 St Andrew Square, Edinburgh, United Kingdom, EH2 2YB.

HBOS:

Bank of Scotland plc. Registered in Scotland No. SC327000. Registered Office: The Mound, Edinburgh, EH1 1YZ

[Dawn Anderson]

RBS and BOS are Scottish in name only. One is over 80% owned by the taxpayer, the other over 50%. They keep their registered office in Scotland only because there is no current need to change it. Both are run from the City of London with the orders carried out up here. As soon as there is a yes vote, the Westminster government will make sure that both re-register in England and move all of their management to the south east. Many thousands of Scottish jobs will be lost as a result and the banks won't be the only firms to leave either. What price independence? It's shaping up to be a very high one indeed.

As for choosing a currency, yes any country can choose any currency but the issue is economic control. If an independent Scotland chooses sterling, and there are big question marks over whether that will be possible, SPAM Eck's whole argument about being in charge of all economic levers to make Scotland a good place to do business are blown out of the water. We'll be stuck with a currency which is controlled for the benefit of a foreign nation which will not take any notice of the possibly different economic picture here and zero control over interest rates. Given the size of Scotland's economy, there's a good chance that we'll end up with high inflation and a huge benefits bill we can't fund from taxation of a relatively small pool of workers. Population demographics are the key and we have an aging and increasingly infirm group of people here with nothing underpinning the massive spend on healthcare except Westminster's block grant. If that goes, this country will end up down the shitter very quickly. I'm not saying the block grant shouldn't be reformed, but spitting the dummy and blaming the English for everything won't make it any better.

[scrunt]

Sorry if this sounds obvious, but thankfully it is a Referendum on Scotland becoming Independent from the 24th of March 2016.
So those with a vote that bother to vote will decide.

All the Polls, opinions, fear stories and propaganda will count for nowt,
those that vote have the final say.

Getting near now as this has been such a drag.

Hearing all those that say they do not know anyone that wants Independence
just means they must be people that do not know people that do want Independence.
Thats possibly just to do with the Circles they move in, obviously.
So that counts for nowt

My mum keeps saying the same thing, and she thinks that 16 year olds should not get a vote.
Totally unimpressed when it is mentioned that at 89 it makes not a jot of difference to her,
& lots of difference to those with a good few decades to live in an Independent Scotland or a not Independent Scotland.

We are Devolved anyway, and have been for 15 years,
so all that is to change is to stop having a UK Government that Scottish Voters did not vote for, no longer dictating to the Elected Scottish Government.

This rubbish about the Aberdeen Oil Industry is funny.
The Wealth of Scotland is behind an Independent Scotland,
That is the likes of, Wood Group, Cairn Oil, Clyde Blowers, Weir Group,
First Bus, Stage Coach, Tom Farmer and others.
The ones that is the Large and Wealthy Corporate Bodies that have Signed the Global Contract with China and elsewhere that is bringing the Chinese Funding that will underwrite an Independent Scotland.

BP or anyone else are not stopping taking oil and gas and expanding around Scotland anytime in the next 50 years.

Scotland got to lease the Pandas and the one that does not fire blanks for a particular reason.

george

[scrunt]

Prime Minister DC MP & GO MP went to China and as much as they wanted, they never got to Lease Pandas.
Took all the top Southern Business people and call me Daves Father in law,
with all his Backers in the Renewables Industry.
Sold their souls and assumed the position, and begged.
They got no Pandas.
What they have got is the French going to build Nuclear Power Stations.

The Chinese like to invest where they can trust those they are dealing with, and where they are respected.
Well thats not anything like a UK Government.

Our Oil and Gas & Industry is obviously important to China and Pumps we are exporting for Drinking Water and so much more are important.
But then History, Tradition. Tartan, Whisky, Fish, Education Establishments, Technology
& more important than anything a friendly welcome counts for lots.

What made Scotlands Oil and Gas Industry safe was the Grangemouth Dispute & beating the Unions and Labour.
Now the Chinese know their Scottish Investments are Secure.
The Gas imports we needed for Grangemouth can now be brought in from America via Norway and the Petro Chemicals are secure.

Alex Salmond after all was an Oil Economist with RBS,
& happens to have all the Chinese connections Scotland ever needed.
Plus he knows were the Skeletons are from the Previous Scottish Based Politicians.
Bankers always know everything, be that about the Legal Fraternity or the Accountants and Especially about Politicians.
Alex Salmonds wife was a Senior Civil Servant, & he worked for the Scottish Office.
That includes the corrupt ones from Nationalists from the not so very long ago.
After all he was in the Group that were Expelled from the Nationalists.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/14/news/economy/china-panda-trade
Always good to follow the Pandas.
(& you might Notice that Canada also got the Pandas, i wonder which Banker got that Deal all signed up.)

.

[( Gray )]

[scrunt]

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/First-Minister...it-China-593.aspx

The Contracts with China have been in Place from the SNP getting their first Term in Office, and more since their second term,
and the last lot of new contractsm signed and sealed,
just before George Osborne was away to China trying for the UK's share.
But always the Bridesmaid never the Bride.
China owns its 50 % or more where it wants in the likes of the Grangemouth Refinery, Petrochemical plant, Oil Exploration Companies etc.
England sadly lacks Natural Resources, a country that goes from draught and hose pipe bans to flooding, sometimez in the same year,
and the only talk of investment is on Train Lines, and that money spent on talking & Consultants.
now they are desperate not just for Shale Gas, but Investment from selling the rights to it.
& the Souths Financial Services built on no actual Productivity or Exports other than those being Produced by Companies own in India or China, maybe German is not much to offer.

So England will now have to stand on its own feet sadly.
8.3 Million in London should be able to be net Contributors, instead of many being a drain on the wealth that the UK could have had and shared all around including North & West of London.

That is how it should be with voters and ones that live here in Scotland.,
let those that live and work and add to the Economy
have the vote.

Who cares about anyone that was born in Scotland and no longer adds to the
Economy of Scotland or the Population.
Do not live here, and might never live here again, because they have a life now living out with Scotland.

5.3 Million in Scotland and expected to get to 6 million.
There should be 4 million with a vote,
but today they say there is a missing million not registered.

If all those around the World that think they are Scottish were involved we would probably have 50 million voters.

Scotland welcomes people to live here, get an education, stay and work,
or come in and work.

We have Scots all around the world working, many in the Oil Industry and they like to be a None UK Tax Payer,
So why would Scotland be giving them the Vote on the Future.

Like Sean Connery (Tam), Brian Cox. or any of the others that only Scottish Connection is being born here and still having family, here,
they are not the Future of Scotland, they are the past.

It seems to be the English that have set views on Scotland and also British including Scots that are anti Immigration yet forget where their families often came from.

We are all Jock Thompsons bairns, and there is always room for more.
Let the Wasters join the 8.3 Million in London,
and move to the English Seaside Resorts,
& bring in the Workers and Net Contributors to Scotland.
We will still have enough Benefit Claimants, Junkies and drunks still here,
and we can clamp down on them without the help of Tories.

Just keep Keith Vaz and various other Westminster MP's away from Scotlands Immigration Policy and ports or airports.
Your Scottish incomers and visitors do not need their type of welcome.

It is funny how those MP's, even Party Leaders that are here in the UK because their families came here as Economic Migrants then think the Country is full and shut the Borders.

Scotland is open for Business and welcomes all including the Chinese buying everything up,
They are doing it every place else around the world.