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Scottish independence - a serious discussion?
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Should Scotland leave the UK?
Yes (I'm Scottish)
16%
 16%  [ 5 ]
Yes (I'm not Scottish)
20%
 20%  [ 6 ]
No (I'm Scottish)
13%
 13%  [ 4 ]
No (I'm not Scottish)
36%
 36%  [ 11 ]
I don't care (I'm Scottish)
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I don't care (I'm not Scottish)
13%
 13%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 30

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DD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, because our exported whisky seems to be cheaper in every other country!!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me all the arguments the Scots put forwards to leave the UK are the same as the UK put forward to leave the EU Laughing

As far as I'm concerned its up to the scots, I would like them fully in or fully out. However I do wonder about the Scottish economy. OK you've got the oil which is big money industry. But that's eggs in one basket, what else can you get?

Someone suggested making it a tax haven for business, ok so they come and occupy your land, make your roads busy, strain your energy resource, etc etc all meaning you have to invest to satisfy them, but if your not getting tax what are you getting?

Employment? Are the unemployed in Scotland appropriate for the business that's arrived and are they living in the right area? If not your relying on migrants, which means you need more houses, schools, hospitals etc but haven't reduced your unemployment burden and you might not even be getting tax off the employees.

Then you have to look at which businesses can setup. Ok if its office based they only need a phone and a computer, if its manufacturing I think a big part of Scotland is out. A big cost in manufacturing is moving materials, you need to be near your supplier or your market. What resources have you got and how many consumers? Things tend to be spread out and the roads aren't exactly the greatest for heavy transport.

The customers of the companies I work for have all closed their factories in Scotland as they weren't economically viable. The machines have been moved to other sites all over the UK and they service Scotland from there. Parts are sent from factories in Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Kent, Somerset, even Northern Ireland as it's deemed 'cheaper' Confused . I assume the Scottish market isn't big enough to keep the factories busy? And these aren't the sort of parts that you can stick in a parcel force van, they weigh anything from a hundred kilos to 30 tonnes, and the big factories ship out 60 lorries a day! Interestingly they have all kept Scottish offices, the patriotic Scots like to talk to a Scot when they're ordering, which I like Very Happy

I would like to be out of the EU as much as the Scots would like to be out of the UK, I think in reality most things would just adapt and carry on, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't be scared to do it!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I hoped for, an informed and passionate but civil debate, I'm grateful for everyone's views - it's helping me sort my thoughts out.

A few things tho (in nor particular order)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979

Scotland did NOT vote for independence in 1979, we voted for devolution with our hearts in our mouths and it is interesting that the east coast and central areas voted 'no' but Glasgow and west (a Labour stronghold) voted yes!

Scotland has a a population decrease problem so an influx of new Scots with skills and willingness to contribute will be welcomed with open arms IMO.

Politicians and Westminster.
Donald Dewar's main aim was to not repeat the mistakes of Westminster and it seems that, so far, we've not but I suspect its been a close shave.

The level of moral and ethical corruption in Westminster and the big parties (especially Labour) is almost beyond belief and one result is that, I believe, many traditional Scots voters now vote SNP because they get the social and socialist policies without the sense of entitlement from the politicians. As an example, I applied for a job with a local Council and was shocked to find that the interview panel included the person who was leaving. It turned out she was standing as an MSP (in the first election) and as a Labour candidate was so confident of getting elected that they were already advertising her job. And Labour wonder why they're less than popular now!

We had all this discussion about figures and economics before Devolution and IIRC the real answer was 'we're just not sure how its going to work' but then we could allow it to ebb and flow until we reached a reasonable balance, that is not possible with Independence and that worries me.

I know that the SNP have done an excellent job of running the country so far but I worry that this won't translate and if Labour get in then it's back to the bad old days of rampant corruption and incipient communism

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DD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I know that the SNP have done an excellent job of running the country so far"


Love comments such as these. Done a great job have they? They have done well administering within their limits, but that's not running a country.

SNP.....Labour......I've seen them both here and not one iota of a difference has it made. So, we cannot equate SNP administering some capabilities to running a country.

To be fair, I could say exactly the same between labour and the tories in Westminster.......makes no difference, has made no difference and in fact I don't expect to see any difference. Life roles on........

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DD, if you're going to quote me then use the whole thing

"I know that the SNP have done an excellent job of running the country so far but I worry that this won't translate", meaning exactly what you said. This is, I suppose the very essence of my concern over Independence.

Is fear of the unknown a sign of getting middle aged?

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DD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahh, fair point.

Anyhoo, I made a few posts, really said nothing, and looking for answers as well.

Unfortunately, as an engineer, I require solid facts and figures to make a judgement. In the absence of said facts, the status quo shall prevail.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you see the recent Status Quo documentary on the Beeb? It was called Hello Quo and was excellent. Can't see them running a country.
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DD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

couldn't be any worse than fattty SPAM face

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:
snip...OK you've got the oil which is big money industry. But that's eggs in one basket, what else can you get?
...


GDP in Scotland without oil is the same as rUK.

GDP in Scotland with oil is substantially more, and makes Scotland one of the richest countries in the world.

Salmond made a very nice comment at the live speech on the 26th, 'they (the SNP) are looking forward to the vote being out of the way then all of the political posturing can stop and the actual work start.' It's a bit of a paraphrase, was about half way through the Q&A session.

I honestly believe that the only reason Westminster is panicking about the referendum is that the cash which Scotland injects into the UK is substantial and they are going to loose it. I notice how there's not the concern around increasing taxes in rUK because of the referendum. I would be. Who's going to cover the shortfall? The sale of the NHS?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

with all the welfare perks etc making Scotland I wonder how long it will be before the new EU migrants will head north in preference to England.

Could be interesting to see what impact - i guess social more than economic - an influx of "new EU" migrants will make?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed wrote:
with all the welfare perks etc making Scotland I wonder how long it will be before the new EU migrants will head north in preference to England.

Could be interesting to see what impact - i guess social more than economic - an influx of "new EU" migrants will make?


The impact?

A LOT of well fed midges Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NHS is one of the biggest pulls the uk has on migrants who want to live here long term, better lifestyles can be obtained, for example, in canada. They've sold us down the rover privatising everything else that past generations toiled to pay for we might as well get rid of that monster too. Then they just need to make it so people can afford to work (or atleast don't want to not work) and things should even out. Laughing

You say the gdp of Scotland is the same as England without the oil? Is that per person or total? If it's per person you have to remember that a smaller more spread out population means your utilities cost more to run. Longer pipes, roads, cables, more doctors surgeries etc etc.

I've though of another of Scotland's exports, water to the south east in drought Very Happy did they ever build the pipeline or does it still go by coastal tanker?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've yet to hear a reasoned argument for Scotland to stay in the UK.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aside from the arguements for and against..

is there anyone else out there who really doesnt care? (like me)
..

any anyone who thinks that most MPs (to be read all MPs) are not self serving penny grabbing plebs, or that every nation isnt spying on every other nation and/or its own citizens is just as much a fool to be honest.

thinks like the spying have been going on for years quietly without consequence or problem to anyone because at the time no-one really cared, indeed its quite possibly that that "spying" has protected the general population in more ways than we know, (i think most people will agree that if a terrorist plotting to blow up a trainstation quietly dissapears, regardless of the methods of evidence collection its never a bad thing).

it just happens that at this particular juncture in time, its the "fashionable thing" to protest against and/or report in the media


With regards to the scotland thing, i dont think anyone will know the full facts ever, regardless of whether they are fully granted independence

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting side effect is the increased feeling in England that we need more autonomy in the regions.

Also don't know whether it's just a more vocal group or more people starting to get the opinion that England should get shot of Scotland (and NI to a lesser extent) as they are a hindrance.

There does seem to be a growing call for English independence - unfortunately often tied in with xenophobic, anti Europe groups.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed wrote:
Interesting side effect is the increased feeling in England that we need more autonomy in the regions.

Also don't know whether it's just a more vocal group or more people starting to get the opinion that England should get shot of Scotland (and NI to a lesser extent) as they are a hindrance.

There does seem to be a growing call for English independence - unfortunately often tied in with xenophobic, anti Europe groups.


Agree, the growing presence of the new BNP, UKIP, and the currently policies for the UK to remove itself from the EU are quite depressing. I forget the statistics, but it's more to do with the apathy by the majority of voters rather than an actual increase in the amount of people with extreme right views. Introduce compulsory voting, but include a non of the above box - heh no politician in Westminster in their right mind would do that!

Gerry Adams has already suggested a push for a referendum in NI pending the result in September, earlier this month Cameron announced that the welsh are being aloud (!!) to have a referendum on taxation and more devolved powers, that's heading in the same direction as Scotland.

I wonder hope much of the current Westminster politicians quietly want separation of the 4 countries? How much would it promote their careers to be able to claim assistance in the legal minefield of independence? Cameron would go on to be an EU advisor of some sort on a very healthy salary, and a few of the cronies would be in the same position.

The actions from Westminster / Downing street are hardly those of people who are trying to strengthen the bond. Cameron not turning up to the downing street St Andrews day shindig. Cameron refusing to meet the Salmond. Cameron refusing to debate the issues of separation with Salmond, Westminster announcing the future cuts in the Scottish budget, an ongoing list.

Does the current Westminster parliament give two hoots about the long term impact to the British economy after Sept? Of course not, the current government haven't a hope in hell of winning the next election, so they will be looking at careers outside of politics (after say 1-2 years), so self gratification is of more importance before the next general election.

When Scotland becomes independent England will suddenly feel like a very small country, which may be of benefit to those people in the northern counties and far west. There will probably be a lot more political focus on England as a whole rather than dividing that focus over a larger area. Also, I can imagine that there will be quite a substantial increase in nationalism, with an increase in the amount of attention to the Lake District, Yorkshire moors, Cornwall and other major tourist destinations as people rally to be 'patriotic'.


Anyways, I'm just looking forward to watching the weather and the map of Scotland not being the same size as the southern counties of England Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dxmedia wrote:

Anyways, I'm just looking forward to watching the weather and the map of Scotland not being the same size as the southern counties of England Wink


There are so many things about the Scotland/England situation that P me off; the weather maps, the way news reporters refer to something happening "in England and Wales" with emphasis on the word 'England', and most of all the petty childish point scoring in Westminster rather than getting on with the job. Who cares who's idea it was, it was a good one so lets run with it. The government realises it's got it wrong and changes its mind and all the opposition can do is howl "U-turn" when the change is what they wanted all along.

There is no logical reason why Scotland cannot be a successful independent country but it needs the support of the overwhelming majority of the people for decades not a few years and a willingness to sacrifice things to build a Nation. This is not an easy thing when we need to avoid humourous banter between neighbours turning into incipient racism/xenophobia. We can avoid repeating the nonsense built into politics in the UK as a whole but it means working collaboratively and, perhaps, looking at being a bit experimental - maybe even eliminating the Party Whip? Make every vote a free vote, people stand for election under whatever banner they like and voters take them as individuals following Parties as a flag of convenience. Once elected they choose a First Minister amongst them who choose their Government from the best for the job irrespective of party allegiance.

A fairy tale? Maybe if I could believe that politicians would genuinely do the best for the Country selflessly then we would build a much better society and we would need all those immigrants (where would Scotland population have been now without the Clearances?). I'm not worried about not having all the details worked out before the vote (most people don;t understand how it works now!) but I am worried about the "dream" turning to a nightmare because it becomes a matter that divides people.

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Last edited by RichardD on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ed
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will women be allowed to wear skirts, in an independent Scotland, or will they be for men only? Laughing Laughing
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DD
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's fighting talk that is

Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
There is no logical reason why Scotland cannot be a successful independent country




There is only one thing that stops any country being successful... politicians

I can not see Scotland gaining politically, it'll just end up having a load of liars, free loaders and fraudsters within it's boundaries rather than in London.


Wish you guys luck though
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting how the media has gone dead on the white paper since it's release.

Almost as if there's nothing to complain about in it?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read in today's Mail online that latest survey poll gives only 27% saying yes Rolling Eyes Exclamation
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmgemini wrote:
As an British tax payer.

We all pay for a european parliament.
A United Kingdom Parliament
A Northern Ireland Assembly
A Scottish Parliament
A Welsh Assembly.



Edited for accuracy.

G.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Alex Salmon wants Scotland to be independent of the rest of the UK?


However he wishes to retain the Great Britain Pound???

Why? How many independent countries allow another independent country to use their currency?

Use the Euro? No automatic right to use the Euro from date of independence.

Now if Scotland wants to join the EU it will no longer be able to practise the discrimination against students from other countries within the UK as that would be illegal under EU rules!



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leeds wrote:


Why? How many independent countries allow another independent country to use their currency?



Many independent countries share currencies and if I am correct the 14 British Overseas Territories all share the pound. There is a history of countries splitting from the UK and remaining part of the Commonwealth therefore sharing many benefits.

G.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have to laugh at people voting straight for yes when they don't even know what currency they would be using......which in turn effects every single person and every single decision in the personal and working world. The current knock-on effects companies, earnings, taxes.........etc etc. if you don't know the currency, how can any comment be made on the fiscal regime.

By not having a currency decision prior to the white paper, then not one single 'selling point' can be made. Anything said is simply wishful thinking.

Its like marrying someone based upon an online cv only!! (I do know someone that this worked for, but you get my point....).

Hot air....all of it.......


If I was the BofE, I'd tell salmond to poke-it! What does that leave. The euro. Yeah, that worked well! Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget that Scotland had the pound before the act of union.

Seems the media is missing that point Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That just a name, has nothing to do with a modern currency. What are you suggesting? We make the remains of the uk use something else while we reclaim the pound currency for ourselves? Smile

Actually, now I mention it.......... Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Scotland goes independant then can we have all our Pounds back please.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winnet wrote:
leeds wrote:


Why? How many independent countries allow another independent country to use their currency?



Many independent countries share currencies and if I am correct the 14 British Overseas Territories all share the pound. There is a history of countries splitting from the UK and remaining part of the Commonwealth therefore sharing many benefits.

G.



Examples please?

British Oversea Territories are NOT independent countries! Therefore they use the GBP


Yes there are informal use of currencies, normally between one large country and smaller islands.

For instance New Zealand dollar is shared with various small Pacific islands.

US dollars is used by some small Carribean Islands. Panama uses both their own currency Balboa and the $

Maybe I should have said which large/western/higher up the global economic scale then the Pitcairn Islands or central African countries share currencies?


I thought that one argument of Alex Salmon was that Scotland would have a strong economy? If so why does he want to hang on to the GBP?




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