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Axle issue; think you can work it out?

 
 
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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Odometer: 232
Location: Bradford



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Axle issue; think you can work it out? Reply with quote

Because I bloody can't Very Happy

I had this issue one before. In short the front axle jammed up. So I bought a diff and set about stripping the axle down. Only to find there was no damage at all to the diff. It turned as it should and no marks on the teeth. No metal shavings to be found either.

I thought I might as well put the other diff in that I bought anyway. Put the shafts back in and bolted the hub assemblies up etc.

Then miraculously it worked perfectly fine so I left it at that.

This week I started pullout out of a junction, bump grind thud and it stopped dead. (insert swearing)

The front prop is off. Yes the back wheels have drive and spin free. The front wheels however are jammed up. If I try to drive it can move forward slightly then when I dip the clutch is bounces back like a spring.

Here is the strange bit; with both front wheels off the ground, I can turn ether wheel freely and the other wheel spins in the opposite direction (as it should). However if ether wheel is on the ground the other one will not turn in ether direction. Even with the help of a breaker bar on one of the wheel nuts.

Same problem as last time. Different diff.

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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CV breaking down?

G.

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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Odometer: 232
Location: Bradford



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will get the shafts out tomorrow and check them but wouldn't have thought so unless both are damaged,

One thing that had me wondering is the missing mass damper on the front. I assume they are somewhat involved with the handbrake drum but no idea how they actually work.

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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
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Jim1064
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Odometer: 279
Location: Hampshire - the county of green lanes



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Axle issue; think you can work it out? Reply with quote

rob546454 wrote:


Here is the strange bit; with both front wheels off the ground, I can turn ether wheel freely and the other wheel spins in the opposite direction (as it should). However if ether wheel is on the ground the other one will not turn in ether direction. Even with the help of a breaker bar on one of the wheel nuts.

Same problem as last time. Different diff.


Doesn't that point to a jammed front prop or centre diff?

Edit: sorry just realised you said the front prop is off...off the axle I assume?

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Last edited by Jim1064 on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Odometer: 232
Location: Bradford



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No because I took the prop off. So that isolates the problem to the front axle.

I had the back wheels of the ground to rule it out and run it through the gears perfectly fine.

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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
97 2.5 Range Rover P38 (sold/survived)
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Jim1064
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: Hampshire - the county of green lanes



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you describe indicates that for whatever reason the front prop flange on the diff is jammed. Or do I see that wrongly?
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(stolen from a traffic sign in Bangalore, India)

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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure thats right as I don't remember seeing it turning.
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Jim1064
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: Hampshire - the county of green lanes



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...then I reckon that's the first thing I'd check out. I'm not an expert but is it possible that even with an intact differential the flange can somehow be jammed?

With both wheels off the ground, can you turn the flange by hand or with a lever or something? Or is it solid?

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(stolen from a traffic sign in Bangalore, India)

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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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Location: Bradford



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe thats the pinion bearing? That can be ruled out as well really as I put in the other diff I purchased last time. The flange on the old diff spun free on the bench as well.

I was told it might be the carrier bearings?

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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plan of action for tomorrow.

Try turn the diff flange with a bar and socket.
If it doesn't turn pull both hub assemblies off and pull shafts out.
Try turn again. I believe it will but if it doesn't the diff is ******.
If it turns slot one shaft in. If it turns slot the other shaft in.
If they still turn then bolt a carrier back in. If it still turns bolt the other carrier in.

Thats every component checked systematically. If it all works once its back together then its witchcraft.

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RichardD
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This a strange one.

Q. when you swapped out diffs, were they complete, ie remove shafts, unbolt casing and remove then do opposite with new one? Or did you only swap internals?

I'd be looking for something inside the axle that has got loose and occasionally gets picked up by turny stuff and jams. My next step would be to empty the axle and closely inspect everything for broken bits.

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rob546454
Just got MTs


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whole case, so its got a different pinion bearing this time.

My dad thinks there is something in the axle but i'm not convinced as there were no marks at all on the old diff or shaft splines. Not to mention when I tried to move it off the junction I could smell the clutch; that sort of torque would most likely crush and foreign bits of metal. Not ruling it out though I will still check it.

I going to put my money on knackered carrier bearing(s).

Apart from not having oil it it I can't see what else it could be. But everything will turn regardless of oil anyway. I was hoping to do the shaft seals but the ones I bought are ether the wrong ones or dreadful quality.

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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
97 2.5 Range Rover P38 (sold/survived)
98 2.8 Soggy Shogun (RIP)
94 3.0 Hilux/4Runner (RIP)
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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the issue. This time it was the diff pinion bearing. I put my original diff back on and its alright for the moment.
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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
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Jim1064
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: Hampshire - the county of green lanes



PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear you've got it sorted Smile
__________________________________
Manage the unavoidable.
Avoid the unmanagable.
(stolen from a traffic sign in Bangalore, India)

Member of GLASS
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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I don't have to pay for a taxi to work tomorrow! Laughing
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spannerman69
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Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob546454 wrote:
Glad I don't have to pay for a taxi to work tomorrow! Laughing




as a pemp measure ,
get a pair of old drive frlange`s and grind out the drive splines .
put them on and remove the prop shaft , lock the box .at least it will keep you going untill you can get under it .

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seriesdriver
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Axle issue; think you can work it out? Reply with quote

rob546454 wrote:
Because I bloody can't Very Happy

I had this issue one before. In short the front axle jammed up. So I bought a diff and set about stripping the axle down.

Same problem as last time. Different diff.


If same happening with two separate axles, doesn't it point to a problem elsewhere ?
Your description of the incident ( turning out of junction ) and the symptom suggest transmission wind up ( series owners will be familiar with this ) and could indicate a problem in the transfer box area.

extract from workshop manual :-

"A differential is fitted between the front and rear output
shafts to allow the propeller shafts to rotate at different
speeds when the vehicle is cornering. Drive to the
front propeller shaft is through a viscous coupling,

which eliminates the requirement for a differential lock."
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rob546454
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Odometer: 232
Location: Bradford



PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Axle issue; think you can work it out? Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice, Good thing to remember if I was ever desperate. Fortunately there was nothing wrong with the old diff I took out so I put that straight back in.

You are right about a separate issue. The diff did jam up much the same way but probably just due to tension built up. Unfortunately this time the stress damaged the bearing.

I have left the front prop off for now. Its most likely the viscous coupling. Although from what I have seen its the back axles that usually suffer as the coupling is on the end of the rear prop.

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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
97 2.5 Range Rover P38 (sold/survived)
98 2.8 Soggy Shogun (RIP)
94 3.0 Hilux/4Runner (RIP)
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seriesdriver
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Axle issue; think you can work it out? Reply with quote

rob546454 wrote:

I have left the front prop off for now. Its most likely the viscous coupling. Although from what I have seen its the back axles that usually suffer as the coupling is on the end of the rear prop.


Think you will find the P38 viscous coupling is connected to the front propshaft not the rear. Sounds like the previous owner was aware of the issues with the unit which is why they had removed the front prop when you bought it ? ( ref your first post about your new purchase )

Good luck
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