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Sound proofing a 110CSW
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Sound proofing a 110CSW Reply with quote

After DD's excitement at getting his 110 CSW XS and mentioning the noise (I SAID NOISE, DD) levels in the cab it got me thinking about whether I need cruise control at £500 or whether, given I do 15k-20k miles a year, some improvement to the soundproofing would be a better investment.

I have bought stuff from http://www.noisekiller.co.uk/ in the dim and distant past and it was great so I've opted for the full noise deadening kit (with the bonnet kit) for £295 plus £20 delivery. My 2012 110 came with load area seats (grrrr) but I've removed them so the noise killer kit comes with the seat mounts already cut out but the very nice noisekiller man is giving me the insert bit to fill in the gaps to avoid them becoming dirt traps.

In a vague attempt to be scientific about this I've downloaded an app and will spend the next few days obsessively recording the sound levels in the car under different driving conditions and then again after fitting the kit.

Here's hoping I get enough improvement that I can use the hands-free kit more easily at 50mph, listen to music and use my amateur radio without having the volume at max all the time.

I'll post my results here over the next few days.

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.
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Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just turn the radio up you woose (or buy a D4).
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Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
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RichardD
Marshall


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHAT?????
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jojo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High noise levels can be an advantage. A recent conversation went something like this:

Her. "Slow down, we are near the shopping centre entrance".

Him. "Sorry, can't hear you but we are nearly there. Just look out for the entrance to the pay and play site."



But that was before the divorce!

J
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Nightbar
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1999 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. wrote:
Just turn the radio up you woose.


Yep - just used OE tread tyres and fitted a bigger radio...

...I get PlanetRock now and I still can't hear Mrs NB.

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Toseland
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try dynamat.. you can stick it all over the cabbin yourself
I bought a roll a few years back to do a nice sound system install in a mk3 vauxhall astra, and it worked an absolute treat.

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I live by 2 sayings:
1. The beatings will continue until morale improves
2. Pain is just Weakness leaving the body..

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lots of good soundproofing mats out there, I've gone for NoiseKiller becuase it's already cut to shape for me but I'm fitting it myself.

Okay ... I'm using skypaw decibel 10th on my iPhone

- mounted on the windscreen centrally
- standard AT tyres running at 42psi front and 60psi rear
- no load area seats but there is a big ally box with stuff that can rattle
rubber mats on top of the carpet with 'some' noise killing foam on the reverse on the floors but not on the wheel boxes

road conditions: dry/damp road, no/very light rain. Motorway/major dual carriageway

Note peak is an average of the top reading over a 3 or 5 second period, it is not the max reading. This is all approximate, taken from watching the meter rather than interpreting the graph. Speeds are indicated so don't get daft about it Wink

at 50mph: average 78dB peak 82dB
at 60mph: average 83dB peak 85dB
at 70mph: average 87dB peak 89dB
at 80mph: average 89dB peak 91dB

What I've noticed is that there is a lot of road noise from the tyres on rough tarmac, overbanding etc and when the tarmac is very wet the noise from the load area is massive. There seems to be more noise from the 2nd row driver's side door area than the passenger side.

I'm going to do some consistent runs along the same road (A726 East Kilbride - M77) at different speeds before and after.

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DD
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1986 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent stuff Richard. As a full comparison, can you do the before, after with the 110 and then against a 'normal'car?
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90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd thought about that but the choice of 'normal' cars I have access to is a bit high end (mother's BMW 5 series touring and father's BMW 760). I could use Jacquie's Honda Civic which is a lot smaller and older.

Thoughts?

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DD
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1986 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High-end is fine Rolling Eyes

However, now you mention it......against both the 5 and the shopping trolley would be fun.

Anyhoo, since when did 5 and 7 series become high-end? We use them as taxis up here Smile

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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's against the forum rules to mention other ones but...

Pop over to the benzworld.org and search the forum for unimog noise reduction.

There's pages and pages on this topic which would be directly applicable to landrover issues too.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dxmedia wrote:
It's against the forum rules to mention other ones but...


It's not not allowed to mention others, just against the rules to promote others. Not an easy call to make I realise.

I've looked around other forums as well and there is a wealth of information for most of it is either anecdotal or prepared by someone with a vested interest in the product (e.g. journo). There are some cars that you have to go nuts on to gain a small noise reduction and others with huge gains for almost no pain at all.

I reckon that just doing the load area will make a huge difference and the whole job should reduce 70mph noise levels to 50mph levels.

Not sure when faither's new Merc S Class is due for delivery (****** is spending my children's inheritance!) but I imagine comparing it to mine is not exactly fair Laughing

I could use the Alldays as a benchmark but it's soundproofing can be massively improved by £1.50 ear plugs Laughing

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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:

I could use the Alldays as a benchmark but it's soundproofing can be massively improved by £1.50 ear plugs Laughing


As could the landy!

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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
dxmedia wrote:
It's against the forum rules to mention other ones but...


It's not not allowed to mention others, just against the rules to promote others. Not an easy call to make I realise.

I've looked around other forums as well and there is a wealth of information for most of it is either anecdotal or prepared by someone with a vested interest in the product (e.g. journo). There are some cars that you have to go nuts on to gain a small noise reduction and others with huge gains for almost no pain at all.

I reckon that just doing the load area will make a huge difference and the whole job should reduce 70mph noise levels to 50mph levels.

Not sure when faither's new Merc S Class is due for delivery (****** is spending my children's inheritance!) but I imagine comparing it to mine is not exactly fair Laughing

I could use the Alldays as a benchmark but it's soundproofing can be massively improved by £1.50 ear plugs Laughing


Well if you want an s class I've got one for sale just up the road from you!! The seats would be an amazing upgrade for your landy Smile
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dpcwright
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years ago I bought and installed a full sound deadening kit (and I cannot remember who from) in my 90 and to be honest I thought it was a complete waste of money - It still howled like a banshee and you could hardly hear yourself think.
If you want peace and quiet do not buy a Defender.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dpcwright wrote:
Some years ago I bought and installed a full sound deadening kit (and I cannot remember who from) in my 90 and to be honest I thought it was a complete waste of money - It still howled like a banshee and you could hardly hear yourself think.
If you want peace and quiet do not buy a Defender.


Interesting. I've fitted cheap sound deadening rubber floor mats into 3 defenders and old fashioned fibre matting to an ex military Volvo and it's always made a noticeable difference. Certainly it's not turned it into a quiet modern oasis of peace and quiet but still made it better than before.

Last night, on the way home from work I did a bit more playing with my app and I can see a pattern forming. I need to expand my measuring for reference purposes to give a better feel for the noise levels at different speeds, and conditions. For example, dry/damp roads are much quieter than rain/standing water and rough tarmac is noisier again but the noise comes from different parts of the car under different conditions.

I'm not going to get too anal about this as I don't have time but I'll come up with some data for:

background: sat in car, everything off, at roadside
tickover: as above but with engine running, no fan and again with fan (I already know this increases level by 1dB)
50, 60, 70 and 80mph as indicated: according to my gps, indicated 80mph is more like 73mph.

Road conditions will be what they are at the time.

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had some time today to drive in circles:

Route was on A726 from Maindenhill junction to the Eaglesham roundabout, a distance of 4.5km (2.8 miles). This is dual carriageway with a mix of gradients and road surfaces including smooth, newly dressed shellgrip and rough worn. Weather conditions: very light rain, dry/damp roads, no standing water.

My data recording includes only data taken at the speed noted +/- 3mph as indicated. Sample rate was 2Hz and I'm not sure what the 'peak' measurement represents (it's not a maximum). There were between 70 and 400 readings

For reference I sat in a lay-by at tickover and engine off for 45 seconds each. results are an average of the average readings and average of the peak readings - make of that what you will!

engine off: 63.9dB 70.1dB
tickover: 68.9dB 73.7dB

50mph: 82.3dB 86.0dB
60mph: 84.3dB 88.1dB
70mph: 86.8dB 90.6dB

I had to try 3 times before getting a straight 70mph run so forget a faster one! Speeds are as indicated.

LRO did an article on this stuff using a 90 and got the following before and after results. We can ignore the actual figures because the measuring devices are not the same but I should expect to see a noise reduction equivalent to driving 10mph slower.

50mph: before 72.2dB after 69.9dB
60mph: before 77.8dB after 71.4dB
70mph: before 81.4dB after 77.0dB

[edited to add weather conditions]

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Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned in another thread I've been running a drop of 2 stroke in my diesel in the 110 and using the EAR MK1 (1 channel slightly defective) I have noticed a significant reduction in engine noise.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

any improvement in mpg or is it too soon to tell?
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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't checked the MPG yet but notionally it does appear to have improved
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???? the V8 90 CSW
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Winnet
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1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting to see your figures against the noise limits for a work environment.

What are the action levels and limit values?

The Noise Regulations require you to take specific action at certain action values. These relate to:

the levels of exposure to noise of your employees averaged over a working day or week; and
the maximum noise (peak sound pressure) to which employees are exposed in a working day.
The values are:

lower exposure action values:
daily or weekly exposure of 80 dB;
peak sound pressure of 135 dB;

upper exposure action values:
daily or weekly exposure of 85 dB;
peak sound pressure of 137 dB.

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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine's a Company car - can I sue for hearing loss?
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mmgemini
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow those tyres are very over inflated. You will wear the middle of the tread out quicker than the rest of the tyre.

Do a chalk test.

I run my 300Tdi Defender station wagon at 30 front 36 rear fully laden to the GVW.

Not attempting to hi-jack.

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Winnet
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1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. wrote:
Mine's a Company car - can I sue for hearing loss?


Well if your boss has supplied equipment that isn't safe to operate as such he is legally obliged to eliminate the risk (remove the offending vehicle) or supply some for of barrier/PPE. I would recommend ear plugs (£1.50) and ear defenders.

If I was your employer I would also point out your use of guns and request that you go through regular hearing tests to see if any hearing loss is due to your personal activities or the work environment.

G.

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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the fact that a previous employer has already compensated me for loss of hearing relating to gun use might be a problem with my current employer. Wink
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmgemini wrote:
Wow those tyres are very over inflated. You will wear the middle of the tread out quicker than the rest of the tyre.

Do a chalk test.

I run my 300Tdi Defender station wagon at 30 front 36 rear fully laden to the GVW.

Not attempting to hi-jack.


I simply followed the pressures in the handbook and yes the centre tread to the rear is now markedly less Crying or Very sad reduced to normal despite towing and should correct itself!

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mmgemini
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
mmgemini wrote:
Wow those tyres are very over inflated. You will wear the middle of the tread out quicker than the rest of the tyre.

Do a chalk test.

I run my 300Tdi Defender station wagon at 30 front 36 rear fully laden to the GVW.

Not attempting to hi-jack.


I simply followed the pressures in the handbook and yes the centre tread to the rear is now markedly less Crying or Very sad reduced to normal despite towing and should correct itself!


Do the chalk test. I know after I did that to me last set I ended up with evenly worn tyres across the tread.

However has the reduced pressures decreased or increased the noise.

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on topic for a moment ...

With lack of time and opportunity I have now fitted 95% of the kit, with a couple of bulkhead pieces to be fitted once I feel brave enough to pull out the rubber matting and bits for the door skins once I figure out how to remove the door cards.

Initial results at 60mph, with all conditions the same as far as possible (ie tyres still over inflated and no fuel additive) show a reduction of ~2dB which is the equivalent of driving 10mph slower, exactly as I expected.

Figures
engine off: 63.9dB 70.1dB
tickover: 68.9dB 73.7dB

BEFORE v AFTER
50mph: 82.3dB 86.0dB
60mph: 84.3dB 88.1dB
60mph: 82.4dB 88.2dB
reduction: 2.0dB 1.9dB

This may not sound like much, if you pardon the pun, but in the real world I can now hold a conversation with rear seat passengers without yelling and they can hear me fine as well (a mixed blessing I realise Wink ), and overall the car is just that much more pleasant to be in. The biggest improvement is in noise from the load area especially on wet roads and with standing water. Basically you can barely hear any noise from the back.

In my opinion, for £310 delivered it has transformed the car.

Now, before the Landrover baiters get started, let me point out that if I add the cost of an engine remap, soundproofing, seat rails, and other 'essentials that LR should have fitted as standard' the total cost is £1,500 which, when added to the retail cost of £30,000 still brings the cost of the car at £15,000 less than a similarly specced Jap 4x4 or Disco with less than half the depreciation. I should not have to buy a car for £30k and then spend days and £1500 to sort things the manufacturer should have done but there we have it.

I'll post full results once I've done a handful of runs at each speed in the same way as I did the first set of figures.

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmgemini wrote:

However has the reduced pressures decreased or increased the noise.


I did some measurements then reduced the pressures and did not notice any change in noise but when I do the next set of runs I'll put the pressures back up to keep things as consistent as possible.

Just to prove my pedantic scientific training I should point out that temperature, both air and surface, atmospheric pressure, humidity and a host of other factors can also affect results but it is almost impossible to eliminate them all. A major one is managing to keep the throttle openings consistent within runs; if I let the speed drop by 3 mph for example and then accelerate back up it will affect the results by 2dB or more for that short period - thus 2 or 3 runs at each speed and averages taken over all of them.

Oddly, I love doing this stuff Shocked

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When driving in the winter. When the tyre noise stops and all goes quiet. The road surface is covered with frozen water.......f
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