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Diff Decision

 
 
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jsharp4684
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Joined: 22 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Diff Decision Reply with quote

Hey All,

I'm new to Ladas, I'm picking up my 1988 Niva 1.6 on Wednesday. Of course, I'm already pricing upgrades and planning my build. One thing I'm having trouble deciding on, since I don't have a lot of off road experience, is whether I should run air lockers or torsen diffs. I have a torsen diff in my RX7, so I know they're plenty reliable. I have no experience with air lockers, though.

Most of the Niva's use will be snow/ice and mud. I'm not big into rock crawling (mostly for lack of availability).

Any advice you guys can provide would be great. Thanks in advance.

Josh

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1988 Lada Niva 1.6
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GB
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question. I am definitely getting a torsen for the rear and debating between a torsen or an air locker for the front. If anyone runs torsens front and rear would be keen to get your opinions and experience.
I think the cost for the Protrak difflock and steel casing is making me swing towards the torsens for both diffs. I do some sand and mainly dirt and some rock crawling, but think I would get more use out of the torsens as their not Shute amount of ground clearance on the lada for rock crawling.
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the moment Ladapower from the Ukraine sells torsen LSD's at a special price. Five different LSD's are available:

5kg / m
6kg / m
7kg / m
8kg / m
9kg / m

LINK REMOVED
The price of two torsen LSD's is almost the same as the price of one air locker - I am concidering two torsen LSD's as well....
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baxter
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1990 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have experience with either, but from what I can make out if I was mostly doing mushy stuff I'd go a locker in the back and one in the front if I was rich.

The Torsens are good, but ask Hoodoo the difference between them and a locker.

__________________________________
1990 Niva 1600, 2" lift, LSD
www.ladaniva.co.uk/baxter -Baxter's Temple of Niva Site
If you do not have anything to occupy yourself - buy a Niva.
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stumbled across this write up about Torsen diffs elsewhere, and it looks like Torsen LSD's for offroad purposes might not be a bad idea at all :


"Hi All.

I can help on that one. i had 2 truetrac on my previous cruiser, a KZJ 73. I looked at all lockers, lsd and others available for 2 years before stepping in.

The Torsen like diff are really the best all over to me.

I had 265 75r16 BFG mud and did 60.000 km with mine, hard off road every weekend and 3 long expedition trip in Africa.

I have heard of a few failure of this diff on big tires, but that was with the 4 worm gear type, the early version, could not find any 6 worm gear type failed on the net.

If you go the Torsen like route, i can only tell you to fit front AND rear with the same type of diff, that make the car feel very balanced in every condition, especially on very sliding side hill slopes.

On road, my kzj was a part time 4wd with a tuned 3.0L td that had quite some punch, compare to the factory LSD it was day and night. Great grip, no effects at all on turning and working on braking as well balancing the brake force very well.
Front hubs on but TC not engaged, slightly heavier steering but just so you can notice it, like 2 bars tires instead of 2.5 bars to give you a picture.
starting one wheel in mud the other on black top will transfer all the power to the wheel with grip and get you out, this is where it is really impressive, getting you through and out of situation in 2wd that were requiring some energy in 4wd before.

Now the cool stuff, offroad.

Snow and ice, great, hardly more over steer on deceleration little throttle will fix it.

Dry dirt and loose gravel, torque transfer is great, smooth and doesn't break the top layer of dirt, making progress with ease.

Mud, just plow through it, great.

Rock crawling, Torsen likes got their limits and trick to learn, they transfer torque, if you lift a wheel off the ground, it has no torque to transfer, if you lift both wheel in diagonal, you are then stopped. Thought it take more to stop it than usuall LSD or open diff since even the slightest contact the tire can have with the ground will be translated to torque transfer and as the 4wd often lean on 3 wheels rather than 2, you get get nicely out in 90% of the situations.
Now if you end like in extreme case, or 45 degree ramps with big twist, you need to learn and use the left foot on the brake, just a feather touch. This brake force will be multiplied by the Torsen gears (2.5 for the truetrac) and added to the wheel that has the most grip. It is just like having a 100% difflocks. This takes a bit of training and practice to master it but is great fun and very impressive.
Where it made a big difference for me was in some trial challenge with twists, up and side slopes or deep canyons, others need to activate both difflocks to keep moving but could not turn or were sliding down the side slopes (land defender, short Datto patrols and other kzj 73) my truetrac were keeping me moving, brake modulation as needed some tight places but at no time they made me slide side slope or prevent cornering as i did with open diff before. I can't tell how fun it was to shut the mouth of this guys saying torsen's are just ******** when i signed in the modded diff group Mr. Green .

On very long full of twist up hill tracks, i keep brake applied slightly from the beginning all the way up, you can corner but you don't loose momentum nor grip through the twists.

Africa, and the the deep sand and Chotts (salty mud with variable thickness top crust, one of the nastiest thing to drive on).
In sand, you won't need sand plates anymore, i had several expedition with my LC before the fitting of this TT so it is not a one off feeling. They pull though anything, crawl you out amazing. In Chotts they grip and transfer torque super smoothly and prevent breaking the crust that traction control and lockers break. the car drove like an ATV though dunes, unstoppable.

Whats more...I now own an HDJ80 as i needed more room, got both factory difflocks. In offroad situation, while the 80 is great and it does very very welll in sand with it's torque and long travel suspension, diff locks are no where close to torsens in any situation when it gets really bad. I just wish i could retrofit torsens on the 80.

To take the best out of a torsen, get a good torquy engine to have reserve for brake modulation without stalling the engine (At transmission must be an absolute top for that...well as the hummer H1, proper suspension travel to push the limits and need of brake modulation (factory 80 flex is enough, no need huge extended flex as some have on land defenders).

To give you a picture, torsen's act like the crawl control on the lc200 but you can keep the momentum as it is fully mechanical and not cutting your throttle, it does require a bit or braking at time but no where as near a crawl control do.

Torsen's are quite sensitive on tire presure difference on one axle, you will notice some torque steer for less than 200gr pressure deviation side to side. You notice right a way when you get a flat. It won't crash you, but you can feel it.

THE big down side is..so far i know, truetrac or any others, UK Quaife, US Peloquin or Wavetrac, none of them has diff for the toy 9.5 inch diff.
Quaife and Wavetrack are superior in strengh to the TT. They have 12 worm gear instead of 6.

Wavetrac are the best diff to me with a 2.5 to 3 TBR, torque bias ratio, and a very cool preloaded clutch plates system so you won't have to use the brakes when wheels get off the ground (will need a bit of throttle to be activated but seems nice)

The only other diff i would consider for a replacement in my next 4wd would be the Brazilian Kaiser. System look great and bullet proof, yet super smooth not to say transparent on road, maybe better in hardcore offroad. but the down side i see in this system is in snow or sand, all auto lockers or un-lockers tend to send power to the slowest wheel by their design, so in very loose condition you have either 1 drive wheel per axle or a locked axle, so it might prevent you to turn a bit or not be as efficient as a torsen which keep power to both wheels all the time to the right amount the can handle.
Kaiser is available for LC 9.5 inch axle so on a 80, i would take that one better than anything else.

My winner list:
Torsen T1 TBR 4.5 to 5:1
Wavetrac TBR 2.5/3:1 and automatic preload on wheel spin
Quaife
Truetrac / Kaiser truetrac for the price and capacity, kaiser for the hard core and strength.

But no matter what, same diff on both front and rear axle Cool
I hope you like it Very Happy"
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Danie
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Joined: 23 Jan 2010
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Location: Durban, South Africa



PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some interesting Torsen tests :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xayy3k_lada-ni...rential-test_auto



Does anyone know whether the Niva Torsens have 4 or 6 worm gears ?


Last edited by Danie on Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nivapaul
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Joined: 28 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I broke two of these and my friend broke one.

Teeth seemed to be soft and twist.

I also found them difficult too engage at times.

Airlockers would be my choice but expensive?

Got an old LSD with plates in one of mine and I like it but it can be noisy
Going around bends on tarmac...

Cheers

__________________________________
(NIVAD)
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Danie
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I seriuosly consdered getting two of those ......

Maybe the solution would be to get the teeth hardened properly by professionals before installation ? But then, it also depends on the steel quality.....
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nivapaul
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just too add my first breakage may of been with aggressive tyres?

My friend had a twin cam...too much power?

My second was breaking half shaft and still driving....bearing nackered...

The first time I really needed in in mud hole. One wheel just kept spinning other just stationary. So was never convinced it was working?

My other friend has gone too air locker and he says it ace..

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Danie
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if the half shaft was broken and you could still drive while the Central Lock has'nt been engaged, it means the Tosen definately worked.

When you got stuck in the mud and the one wheel kept on spinning, have you used the brakes slightly to stop the wheel spinning ? ( To my understanding , the stationary wheel should start rotating when the brakes get slightly used with the left foot in cases like that)

Also, could you perhaps confirm how many teeth the broken gears on your and your friend's broken Torsens have ? Aparantly some Torsens come with 24 teeth, while other Torsens come with 22 teeth. Maybe the teeth on 22 teeth Torsens are thicker, therefore stronger ??

Should the gears on your and your friend's broken Torsens have 24 teeth, I think I will still take a chance and get one 22 teeth unit....maybe there is a very good reason why some Torsens have less teeth...

Anyway, many thanks for the info - highly appreciated.
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nivapaul
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know how many teeth?

Whilst in mud I tried handbrake etc

Yes that's how I nackered bearing everything felt fine so on that occasion it did work.

Cheers

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(NIVAD)
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nivapaul
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know how many teeth?

Whilst in mud I tried handbrake etc

Yes that's how I nackered bearing everything felt fine so on that occasion it did work.

Cheers

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(NIVAD)
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Danie
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some info elsewhere indicates that Torsen diffs do need some special treatment during a break in period , which includes driving around at at low speed, proper cleaning, and changing oil after a couple of miles.

I asume that is also appliccable to Niva Torsens ?

http://www.twf8.ws/new/tech/tip/diff/torsmain.html
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seem to be more than one Niva torsen manufacturer out there, and I think there is a possibility of a quality difference as well. These pics clearly indicate a Torsen housing difference, between Torsens which are available from different suppliers:

Torsen available at Ladapower:



Torsen available at Val Racing - according to info at their website these Torsens are suitable for 2101 cars,(which has smaller engines) as well as 21213 Nivas:



I think I will still try one of the Torsens from Ladapower, although it is a bit more expensive......the weight of the other Torsens seems to be 1.2kg less than the weight of the Torsens from Ladapower, so I am just crossing fingers that the extra weight do make a difference in quality......my intention is to do a break in on the Torsen according to the instuctions as quoted above.

Anyway, I've already been in contact with Ladapower about the Torsen - just need to add a couple of smaller components to the order....
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nivapaul wrote:


I broke two of these and my friend broke one.

Teeth seemed to be soft and twist.

Just too add my first breakage may of been with aggressive tyres?

My friend had a twin cam...too much power?

My second was breaking half shaft and still driving....bearing nackered...

The first time I really needed in in mud hole. One wheel just kept spinning other just stationary.

So was never convinced it was working?

Don't know how many teeth?




@ Nivapaul

Before I've placed my final order (Torsen with 7kg / m preload) I gave your comments some serious thoughts, asked the supplier some questions, and also had a proper look at the info about Torsens at Ladaworld's website .

Having had a proper look at the info at Ladaworld's info / explanations at their website, I THINK and hope I now do understand a lot more about the Torsens. In fact, I think the next info, found at the Ladaworld website, probably do explain some of the issues, raised at the quote above :

To my understanding of the info, one should look at the Preload-value this way: If one wheel is in the air, you normally loose traction. But if you were using the Torsen-ATB with the Preload feature, the wheel with contact to the ground would receive torque equal to the Preload-value. (To my understanding, this means that on a Torsen with 5 kg preload, the wheel with contact will have less torque than the torque available from a 9kg/m Torsen).

Compared to a Torsen with lower preload, a Torsen with higher Preload-value will:

1) Give more Torque at zero and low Traction.

BUT, whatever Torsen gets used, ( and I think this is very important):

Don't spin the wheels more than necessary when the Traction is less than 10 %, to avoid problems. (Info at Ladaworld's website).


So right or wrong, instead of ordering a 5kg/m Torsen (as planned initially) I've ordered a 7kg /m Torsen. The idea is to try to prevent excessive wheelspin when one wheel is in the air by getting more torque (from a Torsen with higher preset value) at the wheel which is touching, and using the brakes as well . The downfall about this (according to the info at Ladaworld's website) is that I will experience more wear on the Torsen with 7kg preload - therefore the lifespan of the Torsen might not be that long. My Niva also has very agressive tyres, which will easily cause sideshaft break problems as well. I do have four spare sideshafts lying around though - so should I do break a sideshaft or two, it will not be the end of the world...

More issues which has been raised at the quote above:

Teeth seemed to be soft and twist. :

I have discussed this with a local qualified mecanical engineer who confirmed - twisted (bent) teeth on any given steel gear is a definate indication that the steel is too soft. Not a problem though -there are a few local Engineering Companies who do have professional equipment to do hardness tests on gears, and if needed, the gears can be hardened further. So I just need to consider my options in this regard.


So was never convinced it was working?

I hope that a higher torque value (7kg/m in my case) will give better indications that it indeed do make a difference.


Don't know how many teeth?

I discovered that the 22 / 24 teeth indication is a bit misleading - it refers to the number of splines at the front and rear sideshafts, and has nothing to do with gear strength. Sideshaft spline numbers on later Niva models do differ from sideshafts on earlier numbers. The number of splines on front sideshafts might also differ from the number at the rear sideshafts as well.

Again, thanks for sharing some info - I can'**** for my Torsen
Smile [/b]
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've finally received the Torsen earlier this week, and started installing the Torsen today:



The Torsen will be installed at this reinforced rear axle with 50mm lift, done by myself:



According to the Ladaword website the higher the Preload at the Torsens, the more wear on the preload Components. So two powerful Dimple magnetic drain plugs will be installed at the reinforced axle, to trap all possible metal filings which might come from the Torsen. The original oil Filler Plug will be replaced by aDimple magnetic plug as well.

A pic of one of the Dimple magnetic plugs in my posession - capable of holding these tools when lifted:
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Danie
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I've bought the Torsen I did a lot of reading about Helical Torsens, (like the Niva's) and I stumbled across this very interesting comment:

"The helical gear style limited slip is superior in function than just about all limited slips, UNLESS you are stopped. The helical gear style needs motion to function properly, so if you stop and you need both tires to spin then you'r screwed.. But when moving the helical gears do a much better job than a clutch style, and they won't send you sideways like a clutch setup.."


Maybe the comment (above) do explain why the Torsen diffs do not seem to work by times ??
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've decided to strip the Torsen before installation to see how it works, and I took a couple of pics:

A view at the inner components, located at the Main Housing. The Torsens from the Ukraine have ten helical Pinion Gears in total - each Side Gear (which drives the Sideshafts) gets driven by five helical Pinion Gears:



The pre-torque components are located between the two Side Gears, at the center if the diff:



The pre-torque components - I've ordered a Torsen with 7kg preload, and it came with two shim containers, and 5 shimms:



All inner components:



Each helical Pinion Gear has six tapered teeth, is about 37mm in length, and the with of each tooth is about 5mm at the "narrow"end:




Each Side Gear on the Torsens from the Ukraine has 15 teeth, the teeth are also tapered, and the width of each tooth is about 4mm at the narrow end:



For what it's worth - after having a close look at the Preload components, I think I do understand Ladaworld's comment regarding "the more the Preload, the more wear on the Preload components" a lot better......in fact, I decided not to use the original Preload components at all, and rather to fabricate my own "contraption". Who knows, maybe it works.
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nivapaul
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let us know how you get on..

Didn't fully understand the operation or know about run in?

Cheers for that.

Think mine's a different make as gears look different..

Might rebuild mine for future use?


Good luck.

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(NIVAD)
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Danie
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a drawing of new Preload components which will be manufactured from special steel by a local engineering company - the drawing is already in their position, but they are quite busy at the moment and I am not sure when the new components will be ready. Once the components have been manufactured, it will be hardened by another professinal company.

The idea behind the new preload components is to try to increase the friction surface against the side gears as far as possible ( 400 - 500%), which might extend the lifespan of the preload components in general. Hopefully this might also ensure a "better" preload, at a lower Preload setting.
400 - 500% obviously sounds huge, but in reality the friction surfaces on the original preload components are very small. Once the components are ready, I will post some pics to explain.

This mod might be very risky, but I got a bit hooked, and just hope the effort will not turn into a nightmare....


If you bought directly from your Supplier, I think you should be able to get replacement parts from the same source.

I've already contacted my Supplier about replacement parts, and has been informed that loose replacement parts (like gears) are not available. I fail to understand why not. My initial plan was to buy a second Torsen from the same Supplier, should my preload mod prove to work well - but should replacement parts definately not be available, I might rather go for a torsen from the other Supplier, if replacement parts are available from that source.
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Danie
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nivapaul wrote:


Think mine's a different make as gears look different..




Any possibility of forwarding some pics and measurements of the gears to the forum ?

Just be careful, and have a close look at the position of the side gears, as well as pinion gears . During re-assembling all gears must be installed at the same side of the diff (left or right) from where it has been removed. In other words, all gears which were has been found at the left side of the diff, must be re-installed at the left again. Same with the gears on the opposite side.
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Danie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The preload components have finally been manufactured, but are still in posession of the Gear manufacturers who did the machining.

Unfortunately the components still have to go to the other Company for hardening - and this Company closed down just before Christmas for the festive season...... will be open for business from tomorrow again. So I should finally get the components within the next week or so.....
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Danie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a couple of pics of my preload contraption, which has been manufatured by a local professional Gear manufacturer. A special steel (EN 34 B) has been used, and hardened by another local professional company.

The final product , however - the bolt which can be seen, is not part of the preload components, the bolt only gets used to seperate the two "halfs" - whenever more (or less) shimms are required to set the preload. The two "halfs"get pressed together and is quite a tight fit, to prevent any slip at the shimms in between :




The two sidegears, with the preload components, and a shimm in between.




The two preload components, seperated from each other, and located in position.:



Two of the original Preload washers, which originally came with the Torsen. Compared to the pic above, the new components (above) should hopefully create more friction, and who knows - a "better" Preload :



The original Preload components, between the two Side Gears:



The new Preload components with two shimms, between the two Side Gears:



The gear Company has done a Rockwell hardness tests on the Torsen gears, as well as the new preload components, and since hardening the new components are 2 % harder than the Torsen gears.
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Danie
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, during installation I realized that the new Preload components were almost 1 mm too long, but this turned out to be a big bonus. Without using any shimms between the two hardened Preload Components, the guys at the Gear Company managed to trim one of the hardened Preload components down with extreme accuracy, This made me realize that should the Preload components or Side Gears ever get worn, I just need to strip the Torsen, seperate the two hardened Preload components, add a shimm or two, and take the Torsen back to the Gear Company - they are more than capable of setting any given torque setting with extreme accuracy...


This surface of the hardened components has been skimmed down with extreme accuracy:






After the final assembling I did a simple test to see whether the preload setting at this modification do allows any slip, and I am very exited about the result - it allows a slip of about 180 deg max , at which stage the Torsen seem to "lock" completely:
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