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Safety advice for winch cable please

 
 
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rob546454
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Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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Location: Bradford



PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Safety advice for winch cable please Reply with quote

I bought a 4 ton hand winch and 12KG Dan-forth anchor for self recovery plus some 10mm stainless cable to go from the anchor to the winch. However I don't know what size clevis hooks I need that will support that load.

Also I bought some cable ferrules and I am going to permanently attach the cable to the anchor. Will a ferrule be sufficient to loop it through the anchor? Should I put two on? Should I spot weld them?

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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
97 2.5 Range Rover P38 (sold/survived)
98 2.8 Soggy Shogun (RIP)
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leeds
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferrules are used on winch ropes, bridge supports etc and are a safe method of terminating wire ropes.

IF and I repeat IF a ferrule is fixed onto a wire rope CORRECTLY then the ferrule is normally stronger then the wire rope.

To correctly fix a ferrule then you will need a proper die with flash relief and a proper press. A fly press for small diameter wire or a hydraulic press for larger wire ropes.

Go to your local lifting/hoisting equipment supplier and drop them 10 quid and get it done correctly.

Yes you will get people saying they have used a couple of nuts, pliers, hammer, vice etc and it has been fine SO FAR! If an incorrectly fasten ferrule gives way that wire rope will fly and can cause damage.

Next soft eye or hard eye. Soft eye has no thimble in, a hard eye has a thimble in which maintains the shape of the loop under load and for the small extra expense is well worth the increase in safety.


Brendan

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2008 Trip Report Here

Asturias, North Spain 2009
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rob546454
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the details. I will look at getting them correctly pressed.
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99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
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98 2.8 Soggy Shogun (RIP)
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leeds
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just noticed your location is Bradford. Can not recommend anyone in Bradford but have used Peter Cassidy in Leeds for crimping wires.

In a previous life, I used to be a test engineer for a company which made ferrules, dies, bridge supports etc. When you have seen a 1/2" wire rope punch a hole straight through a 12" hardwood railway sleeper and stick out 2 feet the other side you learn to respect the amount of stored energy in a steel cable!


Brendan

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2008 Trip Report Here

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Xpajun
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leeds wrote:
Just noticed your location is Bradford. Can not recommend anyone in Bradford but have used Peter Cassidy in Leeds for crimping wires.

In a previous life, I used to be a test engineer for a company which made ferrules, dies, bridge supports etc. When you have seen a 1/2" wire rope punch a hole straight through a 12" hardwood railway sleeper and stick out 2 feet the other side you learn to respect the amount of stored energy in a steel cable!


Brendan



I find you give them more respect when you watch them decapitate someone - better to use Plasma/Dynema rope Wink
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leeds
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen synthetic winch ropes fly over the top of vehicles!

NO I do not trust any synthetic rope to 'just fall to the ground.'

Any winch rope under tension deserve respect!


Brendan

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Toseland
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leeds wrote:
I have seen synthetic winch ropes fly over the top of vehicles!

NO I do not trust any synthetic rope to 'just fall to the ground.'

Any winch rope under tension deserve respect!


Brendan


the distinct difference here, is the potential energy contained within the rope..

the steel stores an enormous amount, and when combined with the spring effect and weight, is a force to be reckoned with..

the steel rope also stretches a suprisingly large amount when under tension..

not saying there is no respect to be given, but i am absolutely sure i respect the steel rope 3000 times more than i would feel the need to a synthetic rope, given the basic physics involved (mostly the weight and potential energy)

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I live by 2 sayings:
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rob546454
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my Shogun stuck the other night and took the Hilux up to to rescue it today. I used two 2000kg synthetic ropes joined. Admittedly not the best.

One has a knot in it and when it was yanked it snapped at that point; like an elastic band and it took out a spot lamp, obliterated the numberplate and smashed the retired indicator behind the plate, going as far as smashing the whole housing.

So can someone tell me what size D shackles and Clevis Hooks I need?

__________________________________
99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
97 2.5 Range Rover P38 (sold/survived)
98 2.8 Soggy Shogun (RIP)
94 3.0 Hilux/4Runner (RIP)
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leeds
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you are in Bradford go and see Chris at The Electric Winch Shop. He has a good range of hooks.

A 9500 lb winch typically has a 2000 kg WLL hook on.

Shackles? For general use couple of 3.25 and 4.75 WLL should be fine.



Brendan

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spannerman69
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why not take the guess work out of it .
PM bertie on her or winnet for the best advice on anything recovery related .

heres a link to his website .

http://recce-gear.moonfruit.com

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Xpajun
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob546454 wrote:
I got my Shogun stuck the other night and took the Hilux up to to rescue it today. I used two 2000kg synthetic ropes joined. Admittedly not the best.

One has a knot in it and when it was yanked it snapped at that point; like an elastic band and it took out a spot lamp, obliterated the numberplate and smashed the retired indicator behind the plate, going as far as smashing the whole housing.

So can someone tell me what size D shackles and Clevis Hooks I need?



A knot in a rope will reduce the strength of the rope by up to 50% Shocked especially if it's a weak overhand bend i.e. Reef Knot Laughing (the one we all do)

Your 2000kg rope - that was, what 25mm diameter? A knot in that is a big lump - enough to do the serious damage you describe BUT... it did the damage which just shows the rope, when parted went straight back to it's root.

A wire rope won't do that - because of the twist in the lay of the wire rope, which gets straightened when under load, when it breaks the lay reverts back to it's normal twisted form, as it does this the wire rope will sweep outwards in an arc and the energy stored within that rope (from it's previous loading) will cut through anything in it's path.

Now I think, due to what you wrote in the quote above, you are confusing ordinary Polypropylene (or Nylon, if you can afford it) rope with Dynema™ or Plasma™ rope these ropes, size for size are far stronger than wire rope:
Quote:
PLASMA 12 – STRAND
“STRONGER THAN WIRE ROPE, SAFER THAN WIRE ROPE”.

DESTRUCTION TEST RESULTS FOR WIRE ROPE & PLASMA 12 STRAND ROPE:

Test certificates supplied by Warn Winch, for wire rope that is fitted to a Warn winch as standard equipment:
5/16” (8mm) failed at 10,230lbs (4.4 tonne)
3/8” (9mm) failed at 15,210lbs (6.9 tonne)

Test certificates supplied by Puget Sound Rope for the Plasma 12 Strand Rope: These destruction tests were performed in accordance with the American Bureau of Shipping and the Cordage Institue.
5/16” (8mm) broke at 14,900lbs (6.76 tonne) MBS
3/8” (9mm) broke at 22,400lbs (10.17) tonne) MBS

PLASMA 12 – STRAND
THE WORLD STRONGEST ROPE
PLEASE NOTE: ABS conduct the most stringent of all destruction tests. Unlike P.S.R. most rope manufacturers will only show an un-spliced average Minimum Breaking Strain. This is determined by the average failure reading over many break tests, not the worst, and a further 10% needs to be deducted for loss of strength due to the splice.
BE AWARE OF INFERIOR PRODUCTS.
PLASMA is such a high quality line that other brands call themselves PLASMA when asked.



Best not to confuse the two Wink
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rob546454
Just got MTs


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are alot of interesting and worrying points made there Laughing

The ropes I used were crappy Tesco ones that I had to hand.

This is the stuff I bought,
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121076163227?ssPageNa...p3984.m1497.l2649

I will be cutting two short length's (about 30cm) and Securing them to the towbar brackets on the Surf as these are the only anchor points. I am throwing the tow-bar away and replacing it with a bumper bar off a new L200 for offroad protection. I will cross-brace the brackets as well.

To give you the picture I will be bolting the bar straight onto the original mountings. The short cable length's will be crimped into D shackle's on one side and clevis hooks on the other. Then the Shackle's will be bolted through the chassis brackets and the bumper bar brackets.

Meaning I can T-off both recovery points onto a single strap. Or I can attach it to my 4Ton hand winch and my Anchor if needed.

I will of-course have the wires professionally crimped onto the hooks going by previous advice.

__________________________________
99 3.0 Isuzu Pooper (Refuses to start)
97 2.5 Range Rover P38 (sold/survived)
98 2.8 Soggy Shogun (RIP)
94 3.0 Hilux/4Runner (RIP)
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Muddy2
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had steel wire rope 32 mm diameter go past my head after a guide wire parted , as early people have mentioned , it sounded like the knot did the damage ? I work with the stuff everyday , making a ferrule on any swr for winching is not the best idea . Using any swr there lots about for different uses As its untested Use the incident as a warning . The hand winch put you close to the vehicle too close even allowing for your swr , yes your ground anchor could move , but instead of replacing your jeep parts , you hobby could take your life .
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