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Alfa V6 + R380 + LJ70 into SJ
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durdzz-suzuki-redtop
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Odometer: 2004
Location: doncaster


1987 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you wont have any time for that once the trucks is done Cool
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nj111
Just got MTs


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Odometer: 166
Location: Forest of Dean



PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stal1878 wrote:
Well I love steam engines and vintage tractors as well.
I recently had to sell my TEF-20 I owned for over 11 years.
Is that your Field Marshall? Probally my "most wanted" tractor (if I could afford on).

I don't know if you have the time, but I am sure alot of us on here would love to see what other bits and pieces you get up to in another thread....


The Marshall on the tail of the low loader is our Series 2 Contractors in original unrestored condition and it'll be left like that. Very powerful winch on the thing! For those that don't know Field Marshalls are approx 5 litre single cylinder 2 stroke Diesels....you have to be committed with the starting handle!


Last edited by nj111 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:29 am; edited 3 times in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

durdzz-suzuki-redtop wrote:
you wont have any time for that once the trucks is done Cool

Maybe! Perhaps off roading all winter, steamer & tractors all summer!
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ordy
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Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By heck you got some good toys, my shoulders hurt at the thought of cranking that field marshall, do they have facility to start off cartrage. ?
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nj111
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Joined: 15 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ordy wrote:
By heck you got some good toys, my shoulders hurt at the thought of cranking that field marshall, do they have facility to start off cartrage. ?

Yes, but cartridge starts are very aggressive & not generally regarded as best way to look after the old girl!
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nj111
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My attention has been diverted elsewhere for a while but now back on this again, hopefully will make some good progress over the next few months. A brief update:

Some finishing off was required to properly seal the bellhousing and at the same time accommodate and seal the crank position sensor in this area.



The new sump had been left short of the bellhousing adaptor to provide a gap and therefore a rebated plate was needed that fits tightly in that gap.



The large single hole is for the crank position sensor's aluminium holder to fit into.
There is no margin for error in the position of this hole as the sensor holder is also dowelled to the sump so all three parts have to align with one another.

Here are the parts of the sensor and it's standard holder. As things stand the holder will not fit into the hole in the plate, it's a casting and needs reducing on the end nearest the flywheel.



A simple mandrel is made so it can be held in the lathe.




And now a skim to provide a location spigot the dead size of the hole in the sealing plate.



It sits in the plate like so:





Last edited by nj111 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A small amount of silicon will be used on final assembly but all parts fit together like this, it looks like it should seal quite well, I'll fit a drain plug so I can keep an eye on it though.



Alfa provide a nice stainless cover plate to protect the sensor, so it may as well be re-used.



After trimming with the angle grinder it fits ok.



Next will be fitting oil and scavenge pumps then the engine can be offered up to chassis.


Last edited by nj111 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:46 pm; edited 3 times in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A brief explanation for anyone not familiar with dry sump conversions.
I've replaced the standard wet sump with a very shallow sump which holds no reservoir of oil and instead will be storing the engine oil in a remote tank.
The engine's original oil pump protruded deeply into the original sump, so it's been removed.
A replacement pump to provide a pressurised oil supply to the engine is needed and also an arrangement of scavenge pumps to move the "used" oil which falls into the shallow sump, back to the storage tank.

To achieve this, the most common arrangement is a combination of pressure and scavenge pumps sitting behind one another on one driveshaft, normally installed at low level along the side of the engine and driven by a belt from the crank front pulley.
The scavenge pumps must to be able to shift more volume of oil back to the storage tank than the pressure pump removes from it.

Generally a shallow dry sump will channel the used oil to it's centre and so an oil return pickup at the front and back will do the job.
In this build, because of the tilt the engine has when sitting in the chassis and all of the angles it could end up at during use, there's a drain in each of the four corners of the sump.

It would be poor practice to "T" off one scavenge pump to multiple pickup points, because if one of these collection points had only air present then it would badly effect the performance of the pump,
therefore each drain needs a dedicated scavenge pump. That means four scavenge pumps are needed. This is not so common, as most commercially available dry sump pumps have two scavenge stages plus one pressure stage. i.e. 3 stages.
Therefore, here a "5 stage" pump is required, one pressure feed and four scavenge pumps. For this reason I decided not to improvise by using say multiple power steering pumps.
Having done a bit of research on commercially produced 5 stage pumps it was looking like the pump cost would be prohibitive. For some time I was unable to find a used one and had been drawing one up to make.

As usual this build's been delayed by other projects, but this time it's worked in my favour because a used pump came up for sale at a reasonable price in the USA.



It's a 5 stage pump with four pairs of scavenge rotors, and adjustable pressure bypass. Exactly the spec. I need and appears to have done little work.
It's a top level "Raceline" pump which would have cost around $3500 new and has a couple of interesting design features.
On the pressure stage the oil bypass is used to lubricate (via the hollow shafts) right through the pump and excess bypass oil is returned with the scavenged oil.
So unlike most pumps the bypass oil does not re-circulate within the pressure part of the pump.
Also the rotor design is such that it pulls a high vacuum on the scavenge pumps, which I reckon is important as in this application good self priming is a definite requirement.
It was previously used on a race car small block V8 and (unusually) ran at direct engine speed of up to 9000 rpm, however I'm not intending to run it beyond 7000 rpm and even then only briefly.
I'll check the flowrates compared to the original Alfa pump and may well get away with running it at less than crank speed.

Now that I know what pump I'm using there really is only one place it can fit and that's in the conventional place alongside the engine. I'll have to make a suitable drive system from crankshaft front pulley to the pump.

I didn't want to fit the pump to the engine and then discover it fouled anything else so I decided to mount the engine in it's final position first.

Engine and transmission aligned and supported and axles temporarily fixed as if fully compressed against bump stops and about 25mm clearance over the sump.
More clearance is available if the front axle is moved forwards slightly. Here the wheelbase is around 86" mark, but in keeping with current Challenge Truck / KOV design will probably end up around or over the 100" mark.


I've had bonded engine mounts like series Land Rover ones fall apart so thought I'd try making some using Defender polybushes with an M12 bolt running straight through.
This way there's no way the engine should fall out when the thing is on it's roof as it's not relying on a bonded joint.

Here using the horizontal borer to prep the ends of the CDS tubing. - Not the fastest method though.
The great thing about these little borers is that the radius which the tool swings through can be altered whilst the machine is running.

This is known as a facing head. (Not all borers have a facing head). So one basic tool which you can grind up yourself cuts a huge range of sizes.




That bit will be welded to this bit which will hold the polybushes. 41mm drill followed by the boring bar to size (42.2mm)





Still have to grind a weld prep where the two parts meet.



Last edited by nj111 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:33 am; edited 5 times in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some plasma cutting, machining, fabricating I've got this. The inner sleeve is stainless and a "floating" nylon spacer clear on O/D and I/D is needed to fill the gap between the two polybushes.





The near side is straight forward:



If I can I'd like to retain the original Alfa exhaust manifolds un-modified. It just makes it easier to replace these in the future, so the mounts are designed to clear these on both sides. Nearside just clears the exhaust manifold.




The offside has less clearance between oil filter and manifold, so a compound angle is required between the engine and chassis. Here, without exhaust manifold fitted:



and here with manifold.
Now that the engine is dry sump (wasn't part of the original plan) I might re-locate the oil filter elsewhere.



The engine mounting plates are not yet fully welded to the chassis legs, I'll do that when the engine comes back out again.



The finished mounts feel good, but I don't know if there will be any unforeseen problems with this design....if there are I'll have to revert to conventional mounts.

At the back end, the Discovery mounts which came with the gear/transfer box look to be okay for the time being.

As the build progresses I'll need to sort a top mount on the engine:

It's always worth keeping an eye out for other parts at the right price and recently we've acquired a 220hp 3 litre GTV engine for £100 from a damaged car.
These do seem a lot of engine for the cash!



Looks like everything made so far will be interchangeable with the 3 litre motor, but the plan is to continue the build with the existing 2.5 litre and at some point the GTV engine will go in to create an SJ430


Last edited by nj111 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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rockwatt
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Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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Location: North lincs



PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might need a bit of heat shield for the mounts ! Polly and heat don't mix very well and that header is a bit close. Apart from that I've been running mounts like that with no probs at all.
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nj111
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockwatt wrote:
Might need a bit of heat shield for the mounts ! Polly and heat don't mix very well and that header is a bit close. Apart from that I've been running mounts like that with no probs at all.

Thanks Rich for the "Hot Tip", will do as you suggest, I had overlooked that!
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nj111
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the engine in position that oil pump can be fitted on the near side of the block in a position clear of the chassis leg.
The pump's quite large, but there's just enough space:



When the engine was in the Alfa this casting was bolted to the side of the block.
It held aircon compressor, power steering pump bracket and rear engine mount. Looking for a quick solution I thought chop & weld:



Bolted what was left of it back onto the block, offered pump up, but this wasn't looking like a great solution.



A custom bracket was a better way to go so in the usual way the mill was used to measure the casting's hole and dowel positions, that info then put into CAD.



Found an offcut of 2" thick Aluminium and put this up on the mill.
Here the rear face is machined out and webbed similar to the original casting, not that it will ever be seen.
This side's also relieved to accept the serpentine belt tensioner.


Turned the part over and bolted it down onto a fixture previously used to hold the 2nd side of the sump during machining.
Milled outer profile and location recesses for the two upstands. These upstand blocks will hold the pump.
The logic here being if I need to move the pump slightly, I make new upstands not the whole bracket.




Finished part:





Last edited by nj111 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had to cut back one of the rear webs to gain a bit more clearance on the serpentine tensioner:





With two upstand brackets fitted the finished item looks like this:




It's very close to serpentine belt tensioner.




With the air con pump out of the equation the original serpentine belt has been substituted for a shorter one and it's worked out well.
There's a greater angle of wrap around the power steering pump and crankshaft pulley.
The original tensioner still works and the cam belt covers still fit. For the first time something has been straightforward without needing any parts made.




Been thinking for a while of the best method of driving the oil pump. It came with pulley for a toothed belt but a very shallow section, I guess that's ok for circuit racing.

I've kept it simple and used a Gates GT3 toothed belt 30mm wide. The teeth are a deep profile and Gates claim they are suited to dirty environments.
Their idea of dirt will not be the same as ours, so once the engine is running it will need a housing. Pulleys to match this belt are standard components with taperlock centres and flanged sides.
They're cheap enough at £14 each for the pulleys and under £3 for the taperlock centres.

To get a drive from the front of the engine I made an extended crankshaft pulley nut from EN16T. The taperlock pulley clamps on the plain section of the nut.





Last edited by nj111 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:36 am; edited 4 times in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to positively lock the nut to the crank as it's RH thread and is driving the pump clockwise.
These Alfa engines are very responsive and the two pulleys are steel & quite heavy so the nut will be inclined to undo.
Crank nut and pulley disappearing into the mud is not a scenario we want.

Here the plate is fitted.



and the pump mounted:







Extracted engine to flip it over and check out how the four oil hose pipes between pump and sump drains would align.



Tranny left in this time



Last edited by nj111 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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nj111
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't like position of pump, hoses to underside of sump would be misaligned and awkward. Pump needed to be about 30mm lower. No excuses, cocked it up, two new brackets required:





Refitted Pump, looks better now. Hopefully hoses will go on there ok




and here with headers and engine mounts also fitted:





Next will be: Plumb the pump, refit engine to chassis & get the thing running.
Once I get to that stage I'm fairly confident the rest of the build will happen a lot faster. It needs to.


Last edited by nj111 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's one crazy big belt Very Happy
The flat sump looks great. 5 stage pump has really made the job Cool

The adjustable pump wasn't working for me, as my pump came out very close to the front suction port. I went with a near solid suction pipe and a V belt tensioner. Not as neat as yours by any measure, but backing the tensioner off has been handy if I need to spin the pump by hand. Especially as all the oil winds up in the crank case. (should have put the priming hand pump on drivers side)

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nj111
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Joined: 15 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teamidris wrote:
That's one crazy big belt Very Happy
The flat sump looks great. 5 stage pump has really made the job Cool

The adjustable pump wasn't working for me, as my pump came out very close to the front suction port. I went with a near solid suction pipe and a V belt tensioner. Not as neat as yours by any measure, but backing the tensioner off has been handy if I need to spin the pump by hand. Especially as all the oil winds up in the crank case. (should have put the priming hand pump on drivers side)


Appreciate more info on your priming pump arrangement please! Is it just a simple arrangement in parallel with main pump plus some check valves?
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teamidris
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I might get away with a brass sump drain pump from a canal boat http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/36459/Trem-Bra...LoCFRIPtAod03sADw They are designed to pump hot oil, but I get away with the thick cold oil of an RV8. I have a port on the sump to suck from and the oil is dumped into the tank. The handle sticks through the bulkhead into the cab. Once there is a few inches in the tank, the head self primes the pressure pump. I turn over with the coil off until I get pressure (nearly instant) and drop the ignition back on to run. I guess revving would be bad, so I wait to let the tank fills up and the crank is free of oil. (I'm certainly above the sump gasket level after a month).
If its been a good long while since running I back off the v belt tensioner and put a speeder bar with 10mm socket into the front and raise oil pressure by hand. This is surprisingly easy, leading me to the conclusion that a 10mm fan belt is overkill for the task. Which is nice to know, with pump drive being so critical to the wallet Smile

Biggest risk in our minds seems to be 10 litre of oil in a shallow sump thumping the crank, so I guess the proper fix is an electric scavenge pump? It would make sure you would always pump all the oil up (Which I don't as it's boring) We thought the deadly fix would be a tank tap, as leaving it shut and running would be very bad.
On the other hand, I suspect the oil is pumped up to the tank so fast that folk start up cold and it all sorts itself out ?

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nj111
Just got MTs


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the info. I was thinking your priming pump was to prime the pressure side before turning the engine over, didn't realise that oil reservoir drain down was the issue. This would be a bit of a pain, it would be nice to design it out, I'll give the problem some thought.
Maybe check valves between each scavenge pump and sump pickup so there's no reverse route back that way and pressure side could also have a check valve in the flow direction which opens at a very low pressure,just enough to prevent drain down by gravity but not enough to cause an issue when running?
Any advice / ideas on this appreciated at the moment, so I can get it done soon!
Nick
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Eclipsed4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The usual fine engineering eye candy Nick Very Happy

Is there any way you can get a more positive drive on the belt? I wouldn't be at ease burning round the place relying on one bolt to stay done up. It could make a fair mess if it came off. Could you weld anything to the original pulley to even put a securing bolt through or anything? At least it can't budge then. Or has it got a rubber centre bit?

As for the draining down a check valve in the line would seem the simplest way. As long as it doesn't restrict the flow with the engine running I would of thought it would be fine. You could go the route of a solenoid valve that switches with the ignition but if it fails/wire falls off during running that wouldn't be good. Maybe a pilot operated solenoid valve and get the pilot pressure from the pump? Again, more to go wrong. This must be a problem for anyone running a dry sump?

Sorry, not much help! Rolling Eyes

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nj111
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eclipsed4ever wrote:


Is there any way you can get a more positive drive on the belt?Or has it got a rubber centre bit?Rolling Eyes


Yes it's a vibration damper pulley which is keyed to the crank, but in the area I could attach to it there's a non symmetrical rubber core. You are quite right it's a potential problem and I will need to get a positive fixing to it or the crank somehow. I'll work on that!
I'll also ensure engine cuts if oil pressure is lost, in case a hose gets fractured or pump drive fails etc.
I like the solenoid idea to prevent oil drain back but there will be 5 solenoids required and as you say one is bound to fail at some point, so check valves look the favorite to try to start with unless anyone can advise otherwise? There should be far more oil available than this engine needs so a slight drop across a check valve should not be a problem.
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Eclipsed4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will you need one for each scavenge pump? Just getting how your running it right in my head... the 4 scavenge pumps pull oil from the sump and push to a reservoir. The reservoir will feed the main oil pump, oil travels back to the sump through the engine. Is this correct?

If the reservoir returns are above the oil level in the reservoir then you wouldn't need to check valve the scavenge pumps would you? You'd get whatever was in the pipes run back to the sump but wouldn't that be negligible. I would of thought the route that will cause a problem is the reservoir to pump to sump. You could get away with just one valve then.

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nj111
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eclipsed4ever wrote:
Will you need one for each scavenge pump? Just getting how your running it right in my head... the 4 scavenge pumps pull oil from the sump and push to a reservoir. The reservoir will feed the main oil pump, oil travels back to the sump through the engine. Is this correct?

If the reservoir returns are above the oil level in the reservoir then you wouldn't need to check valve the scavenge pumps would you? You'd get whatever was in the pipes run back to the sump but wouldn't that be negligible. I would of thought the route that will cause a problem is the reservoir to pump to sump. You could get away with just one valve then.

I agree, you are right, my only reservation is that one of the innovative features of this particular pump is a connection between the pressure side and the scavenge return, internally within the pump.
Once pressure is reached, rather than continually recirculate around the pressure stage, the bypass oil provides lubrication back through the hollow shaft to the idler gears on all stages of the pump,then disperses this into the scavenge stages.
This is better than keeping the excess oil recirculating around the pressure stage of the pump and getting hot before it reaches the engine. If this route is only open above the set pressure then it seems logical that just one check valve in the pressure supply to engine should hopefully prevent a drain back issue! Certainly sounds like the way to go first & see what happens.
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Toseland
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1999 Suzuki Vitara

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simply speechless...




do you think if i brought you my vitara, you could machine me a new body shell out of an alu block? pretty please?

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nj111
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toseland wrote:
simply speechless...

do you think if i brought you my vitara, you could machine me a new body shell out of an alu block? pretty please?


Toseland, send the billet! (I'll keep the offcuts).


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teamidris
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about a feed sprung valve? I'm sure mine hasn't seals between stages, so oil escapes down the shafts anyway, if it doesn't get away down the cross-lubes? When I rang Dave Lazenby he wasn't surprised, but said it was normal for oil to get past the dry sump pumps.
It would be easy to test though, with a low pressure air line onto the lube pumps suction port. (with shaft held/locked). If it leaks that to the scavenge ports, oil will get through over time?

He also said an inch suction port was a minimum over 3ft of suction. He is always adamant over that, saying low cavitation and a system that removes bubbles is vital. He said he tried a pressurised tank, to force oil into the pump, but that it held the bubbles and blew the engine on test! So a valve-free feed sounds like a vital part. He even said to have a trumpet on the inlet on the tank suction, to stop veener constriction. I machined mine into the pipe fitting. My suction mesh in the tank is 160mm diameter, as opposed to a pipe sized witches-hat.

So a lot going on, and I'm glad I had his help to steer us right Very Happy
And very pleased with the results, which were well worth the work Cool

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nj111
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Location: Forest of Dean



PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teamidris, many thanks for the info, all very useful & appreciated. You are saying for a 3' suction pipe run, each pickup port in the sump should be 1" bore?
I assume you are running a Lazenby pump on the RV8?
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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3372
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I meant the pick up pipe from the tank. It seemed keeping this 'good' settled oil together was key for a good system.

Scavenge pipes shouldn't be as critical. An interesting point on Pirate was to put the oil cooler between scavenge pumps and tank. Cooling the oil and slowing it down helped amalgamate it they said. (it being full of air) And from my perspective, it's always best to cool oil when it is hottest, for the best heat exchanger performance.
So far the oil has looked pretty cool, as the tank is right next to the fan that blows air onto the auto oil cooler. It was an intentional move to keep a small air flow around a good sized steel tank Very Happy

http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=47329...asc&start=150 Has some useful photo's (pages 6,7&Cool which I think will make a lot more sense now you are making the hardware?

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nj111
Just got MTs


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Odometer: 166
Location: Forest of Dean



PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, more useful info. Thanks!
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Stal1878
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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Location: Somerset


1990 Daihatsu Fourtrak

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic work as always Very Happy
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