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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: Fourtrak Starter Problem
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The starter on my Fourtrak suddenly decided to stop working on me last week. Had been away and it had been stood for 4 days, but started first time as usual. Drove about 25 miles, stopped for diesel and when i came to restart it the starter did nothing.
Swift tap with a big hammer on the starter and it fired up straight away. Carried on like this for a few days, dead on the key but starts with a bash on the starter. After a bit of investigating i got this kit off Ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290597636670?ssPageNa...2649#ht_854wt_932
Fitted it this afternoon making sure it all went back together in the right order. The old contacts did look quite worn. Now its all back together it still wont start on the key, but wont start with a bash to the starter either.
Any suggestions what to try next? Does it sound like its time for a replacement starter?
Thanks.
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RL12 Just got MTs
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 Odometer: 297 Location: Devon/Shropshire
1987 Daihatsu Fourtrak
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject:
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firstly, double check you connected the starter wiring properly and that you battery is fully charged.
if you open the bonnet does the starter engage & click when you turn the key?
(make sure you don't confuse the clicking with the glow plug relay clicking next to the battery)
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mudplugga Mud Obsessed
Joined: 23 Oct 2004 Odometer: 2798 Location: Shropshire mostly, and Mid Wales
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject:
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If there's dirt and oil in the outer part of the solenoid that will make the moving part ( the new part supplied in that kit ) stick.
Also the small wire going to the solenoid is prone to getting weak and losing strands at the terminal.
__________________________________ http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337
"Roof, doors, wheels. It's the way I drive." |
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject:
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RL12 wrote: | firstly, double check you connected the starter wiring properly and that you battery is fully charged.
if you open the bonnet does the starter engage & click when you turn the key?
(make sure you don't confuse the clicking with the glow plug relay clicking next to the battery) |
With the bonnet open i can only hear the glow plug relay clicking - absolutely no noise/movement from the starter or solenoid it would appear.
Checked the wiring visually, all appears to be in the right place. Assuming the battery is good as it has always held its charge okay. Massive assumption though, i guess i need to find a multi meter and double check.
Have stripped and cleaned the rest of the starter and checked the brushes are okay.
The more i type the more i'm thinking its an electrical fault rather than the starter thats at fault? If i can get a multi meter in the morning what should i be checking and where? I'm not good with electrics, i just understand the basics.
Thanks for the help and info so far.....
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject:
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mudplugga wrote: | If there's dirt and oil in the outer part of the solenoid that will make the moving part ( the new part supplied in that kit ) stick.
Also the small wire going to the solenoid is prone to getting weak and losing strands at the terminal. |
Have cleaned up the small wire to the solenoid as the contact was a bit grubby. Might try and replace the cable to be sure.
Have you ever stripped one of these? This will sound really silly but when i took the plunger and spring out, we noticed a small ball bearing drop onto the bench. It seemed to have come from below the spring so thats where i put it back. Cant see it causing the lack of power though.
Are there any fuses or relays that might be causing this problem?
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mudplugga Mud Obsessed
Joined: 23 Oct 2004 Odometer: 2798 Location: Shropshire mostly, and Mid Wales
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject:
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The starter motor circuit is fairly simple, there's a big heavy wire that goes to the solenoid which is a switch, then on to the motor. The small wire just actuates the solenoid.
To test the solenoid circuit get a long bit of wire and attach it to the solenoid terminal, then touch the other end of the wire to the battery live terminal and the starter should turn and engage. If it does this without any problem then the wiring from the key switch is the problem. Many years ago when I had a small fire in a Range Rover I got it home by wiring the starter solenoid to the battery using a length of household flat twin & earth cable and a domestic light switch.
I can't for the life of me remember where the ball goes, but I remember there being one.
__________________________________ http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337
"Roof, doors, wheels. It's the way I drive." |
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RL12 Just got MTs
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 Odometer: 297 Location: Devon/Shropshire
1987 Daihatsu Fourtrak
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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject:
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and yes there fuses and relays that would make the starter not work but the fact that it's a bit dodgey since you touched it kinda suggests it's something other than fuse. although check obv.
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject:
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mudplugga wrote: | The starter motor circuit is fairly simple, there's a big heavy wire that goes to the solenoid which is a switch, then on to the motor. The small wire just actuates the solenoid.
To test the solenoid circuit get a long bit of wire and attach it to the solenoid terminal, then touch the other end of the wire to the battery live terminal and the starter should turn and engage. If it does this without any problem then the wiring from the key switch is the problem. Many years ago when I had a small fire in a Range Rover I got it home by wiring the starter solenoid to the battery using a length of household flat twin & earth cable and a domestic light switch.
I can't for the life of me remember where the ball goes, but I remember there being one. |
Have now tested solenoid circuit, still nothing!
I cant see the battery being flat after being stood for 4 days, its never let me down yet, but just to double check i've popped it on charge overnight.
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject:
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RL12 wrote: |
and yes there fuses and relays that would make the starter not work but the fact that it's a bit dodgey since you touched it kinda suggests it's something other than fuse. although check obv. |
Have checked the fuse and its fine - i'm assuming its the 30a marked engine?
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Redfourtrak ( neil ) Articulating
Joined: 26 Jul 2010 Odometer: 889 Location: east anglia/suffolk,essex border
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ivorbiggin Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Odometer: 2485 Location: PORTSMOUTH
1996 Ford Maverick
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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject:
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Your assuming that its the starter solenoid that was at fault, however it may be the the brush gear was sticking on the motor itself, often a bash on the starter with a blunt instrument will free the sticking brush, and away goes the starter.
I would check that you have power to the starter from the ign, get someone to turn the ign key over to the start position and check the small lead on the starter for power, if you have power there then its a starter issue not relay or fuse.
is the engine earth good and do you have a 12v supply on the main power feed to the starter from the battery, no dirty/loose batt, terminals?
If all that checks out then take the starter out and strip it down, check for brush/comutator wear in the starter main body, check out that the solenoid contacts that you have installed are good and making contact
Also when you have rebuilt the starter dont just bolt it back in the vehicle, mount it in a vice and test it first, using a slave battery or jump pack
__________________________________ 2.5 TDI zimmer frame. |
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject:
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Evening!
Have changed the battery and now know the battery is fine. Using a multimeter i have also checked the ignition switch and the black cable leading to the solenoid.
Fully stripped the starter again to check the brushes and springs, all appears okay there.
Having a play with the multimeter it seems there is a break in a cable inside the solenoid body. If i put the red multimeter on the cable that comes in from the ignition switch and the black multimeter cable at the base of the cable inside the solenoid body, there appears to be no circuit. If i move the black multimeter probe up to the terminal inside the solenoid body (rather than on the cable its attached to) then i do get a circuit. Any suggestions how to sort this? Cant seem to see if the solenoid internals can be removed.
Hope the above makes sense, electrics isnt my speciality. I'll try and pop a picture up so you can see where it is.
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject:
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Hope this works!
I've arrowed where i am putting the probe - if i put it on the terminal at the top there is a circuit, if i put it further down i get no circuit.
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ivorbiggin Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Odometer: 2485 Location: PORTSMOUTH
1996 Ford Maverick
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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject:
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Struggling to understand what your saying here.
Looking at photo no 1, do you have continuity, I.E does the multimeter show a circuit has been made?
__________________________________ 2.5 TDI zimmer frame. |
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject:
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ivorbiggin wrote: | Struggling to understand what your saying here.
Looking at photo no 1, do you have continuity, I.E does the multimeter show a circuit has been made? |
No continuity when i do it as shown in photo 1 with the red probe sat on the cable below the terminal
If i put the red probe on the actual terminal inside the solenoid body (a few mm above where it is in the photo) then i do get continuity.
The cable attached to that terminal appears to have broken off, have had a quick go at re-soldering it but my cheapo soldering iron doesnt seem to get hot enough.
Think i need to strip more of the solenoid body off to get better access to it.
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ivorbiggin Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Odometer: 2485 Location: PORTSMOUTH
1996 Ford Maverick
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject:
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AHHH im with you now, so it looks as though the cable is broken away from the inside of the terminal, you only have continuity on the post, nothing at the cable inside.
To solder that you will need either a potable gas soldering iron or one very big electric iron 100w or more as that post will absorb much of the heat, youll also need to keep an eye on the insulation between the post and the solenoid body to make sure it dosnt melt or burn through
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject:
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Yey! All sorted now. Got a big electric soldering iron on it last night and seemed to do the trick. Just re-fitted it and it started first time.
Thanks for all the help - at least if i ever need to get the starter off again i've got it down to being about a 3 minute job!!!!
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: Its playing up again.....
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Well i got a good few months out of it, but its started playing up again. Back to the usual trick where sometimes it will start on the key, sometimes it wont, but generally starts with a tap on the starter.
It seemed to start fine in the mornings when its cold, but wont start on the key once its warm. A very very gentle tap on the starter and it would start straight away. I was quite busy with work so kept doing this for a few weeks.
After a few weeks, i was struggling to start it even with a tap on the starter, sometimes needing 3 or 4 swift smacks to get it to turn over. In the last few days it wont start at all on the key and it needs a hell of a belt on the starter to get it to turn at all, and when it does it seems like the starter is only turning maybe half a turn, not quite enough to start the engine.
In between all this going on i've had the starter apart about 4 or 5 times to clean it (have been spraying inside with maplins solvent cleaner) and made sure it is spotless when it goes back together. It then gets back to how it was (Okay on the key when cold, but gentle tap when warm) but within a day or two goes back to struggling to turn at all even with a fierce smack. On the last strip down i lightly sandpapered the brushed faces and motor to clean up the copper contacts but this doesnt seem to have made any difference.
When it wont start on the key, i'm about 90% convinced that i can hear the solenoid engaging so do you think its an issue with the brushes? Are these replaceable on the Fourtrak starters? Any other suggestions?
Thanks!
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parrotveasey81 Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Odometer: 7480 Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:22 am Post subject:
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if i was you i would bite the bullet and get a new starter as your one is way past its use by date
__________________________________ http://www.bloodredoffroad.com/
Angry parrot fabrications,check me out on Facebook |
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JemAndes Just got MTs
Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Odometer: 446 Location: 10th region (lakes region) Chile
1998 Daihatsu Fourtrak
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject:
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I have to agree with Parrot. For all the trouble it's giving you, and the amount of effort you have put in to fixing the starter. It may just be telling you it's had it's day. At least you will have a more reliable start, and you won't/shouldn't have to worry about this problem for quite some time.
Plus, all those belts on that starter aren't helping it get any better.
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject:
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I've pretty much come to that conclusion..... i just had this final nagging doubt that it might be something simple! The starter has been replaced at some point as its a delco remy starter, but no idea when it was done.
Local motor factor is quoting £156 Inc VAT and they want the old one in exchange otherwise its a £40 surcharge, does that sound about right?
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JemAndes Just got MTs
Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Odometer: 446 Location: 10th region (lakes region) Chile
1998 Daihatsu Fourtrak
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject:
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I don't know about the UK, but in the U.S. and here in Chile, a good one is close to that usually. The Core (old one) is also required in the U.S. If you don't turn it in, you have to pay a $40-50 charge. The reasoning is that there are hazardas materials in some products, and it helps with pollution as the can recycle/rebuild most old car parts so there aren't being dumped in land fields.
Whether or not they actually do that stuff, I don't know. In the end, they just want your money!
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parrotveasey81 Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Odometer: 7480 Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject:
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Tiffa wrote: | I've pretty much come to that conclusion..... i just had this final nagging doubt that it might be something simple! The starter has been replaced at some point as its a delco remy starter, but no idea when it was done.
Local motor factor is quoting £156 Inc VAT and they want the old one in exchange otherwise its a £40 surcharge, does that sound about right? |
is that from milners??
iirc i paid £180 from a motor factors
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Tiffa Winch Assistant
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 Odometer: 80 Location: Stockport
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject:
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parrotveasey81 wrote: | Tiffa wrote: | I've pretty much come to that conclusion..... i just had this final nagging doubt that it might be something simple! The starter has been replaced at some point as its a delco remy starter, but no idea when it was done.
Local motor factor is quoting £156 Inc VAT and they want the old one in exchange otherwise its a £40 surcharge, does that sound about right? |
is that from milners??
iirc i paid £180 from a motor factors |
Just our local Speedyparts, but i do spend quite a bit with them.
Think i will have to take the plunge, got stuck last week 60 miles from home at 10pm with a 3 ton trailer on, i wasnt popular!!
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parrotveasey81 Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Odometer: 7480 Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject:
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Tiffa wrote: | parrotveasey81 wrote: | Tiffa wrote: | I've pretty much come to that conclusion..... i just had this final nagging doubt that it might be something simple! The starter has been replaced at some point as its a delco remy starter, but no idea when it was done.
Local motor factor is quoting £156 Inc VAT and they want the old one in exchange otherwise its a £40 surcharge, does that sound about right? |
is that from milners??
iirc i paid £180 from a motor factors |
Just our local Speedyparts, but i do spend quite a bit with them.
Think i will have to take the plunge, got stuck last week 60 miles from home at 10pm with a 3 ton trailer on, i wasnt popular!! |
sounds like a good deal and if anything goes wrong with the new at least you can talk to someone face-face unlike mail order
__________________________________ http://www.bloodredoffroad.com/
Angry parrot fabrications,check me out on Facebook |
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fourtrak craige Articulating
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Odometer: 863 Location: oxfordshire
1997 Daihatsu Fourtrak
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject:
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good job i've been reading this, my starter plays up a bit i think
i have no end of solenoids going click so i can't quite tell whats what, but sometimes i turn the key and it'll fire straight up, but other times i can turn the key on n off 5,6 times and it won't do anything but then it'll turn and fire.
i've tapped the starter once a few months ago, is my starter on the way out or could it be summat else?
also do all Td 'traks run the same starters?
__________________________________ if it ent broke i'll break it
if i can't break it, it must be a fourtrak
for all diahatsu parts give bloodredoffroad.com a call |
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ivorbiggin Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Odometer: 2485 Location: PORTSMOUTH
1996 Ford Maverick
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject:
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parrotveasey81 wrote: | Tiffa wrote: | parrotveasey81 wrote: | Tiffa wrote: | I've pretty much come to that conclusion..... i just had this final nagging doubt that it might be something simple! The starter has been replaced at some point as its a delco remy starter, but no idea when it was done.
Local motor factor is quoting £156 Inc VAT and they want the old one in exchange otherwise its a £40 surcharge, does that sound about right? |
is that from milners??
iirc i paid £180 from a motor factors |
Just our local Speedyparts, but i do spend quite a bit with them.
Think i will have to take the plunge, got stuck last week 60 miles from home at 10pm with a 3 ton trailer on, i wasnt popular!! |
sounds like a good deal and if anything goes wrong with the new at least you can talk to someone face-face unlike mail order |
Make sure you get a good quality rebuilt unit, cheap isnt always good. I have found Euro car parts supply good refurbed units, and at very competitive prices, i also use Delco Remy from a local factor and found them to be pretty reliable too
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parrotveasey81 Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Odometer: 7480 Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject:
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fourtrak craige wrote: |
also do all Td 'traks run the same starters? |
when i got mine it came with a spare starter and it looked the same antill i went to fit itonly to find out it was smaller
__________________________________ http://www.bloodredoffroad.com/
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fourtrak craige Articulating
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Odometer: 863 Location: oxfordshire
1997 Daihatsu Fourtrak
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:54 am Post subject:
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what do you mean smaller?
less cranking capacity or summat?
__________________________________ if it ent broke i'll break it
if i can't break it, it must be a fourtrak
for all diahatsu parts give bloodredoffroad.com a call |
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parrotveasey81 Mud Obsessed
Joined: 13 Feb 2009 Odometer: 7480 Location: bradford on avon (wiltshire)
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:14 am Post subject:
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fourtrak craige wrote: | what do you mean smaller?
less cranking capacity or summat? |
as in overall size
__________________________________ http://www.bloodredoffroad.com/
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