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Alex90 Articulating
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Odometer: 861 Location: preston, Lancashire
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:46 am Post subject:
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in my opinion if your rich enough to buy a new defender then why waste your money on one? why not buy an old one, rebuild it on a galv chassis, put some stronger reconditioned axles under it (or uprate and rebuild the landy ones to keep the easy rear wheel bearing change), stick a fully rebuilt big jap diesel engine in it and off you go. that way you get a brand new motor without all the new tax band rubbish, stupid emissions tosh and it will pretty much run on anything for forever and a day if its looked after.
__________________________________ 54 reg l200 warrior in black. 2" lift, rough country shocks with prototype bolt on relocation brackets, ralliart power upgrade, egr blanked, realtree camo truckman top, straight through side exit exhaust. |
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burko_uk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2005 Odometer: 1017
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:53 am Post subject:
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Get real - you could say that about absolutely every car there is. Depreciation is the most expensive part of car ownership whatever brand. If you can afford to spend 25k on a new Defender it's because either you are a fleet manager, or you are not a home mechanic. Of the 30 odd million motorist in this country by far the vast majority just want to buy a car and drive it, not spend months in a workshop knocking together some dodgey hybrid. And you don't need to worry about "emissions tosh" because the new vehicles are designed to met the requirements.
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Alex90 Articulating
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Odometer: 861 Location: preston, Lancashire
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:07 am Post subject:
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It was just my opinion. Sorry it didnt conform to yours i was talking about the rich individual not fleet owners.
__________________________________ 54 reg l200 warrior in black. 2" lift, rough country shocks with prototype bolt on relocation brackets, ralliart power upgrade, egr blanked, realtree camo truckman top, straight through side exit exhaust. |
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burko_uk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 21 Oct 2005 Odometer: 1017
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject:
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Which is why I added a second category of buyer.
Quote: | Of the 30 odd million motorist in this country by far the vast majority just want to buy a car and drive it, not spend months in a workshop knocking together some dodgey hybrid. |
The point you are missing, which makes you opinion some what flawed, is that the "rich individual" are generally not home mechanics, and are people who won't even know what a galv chassis is, and have certinaly never considered swapping an engine. However I'm sure Land Rover will be gutted when the 26 wealthy spanner monkeys read your post and see the light.
I think the unlying issue you raise in your statement is that the Defender is old and tired and due for retirement, which is what Land Rover is doing. Yet all the individals who aren't buying new defenders, but are instead building their own "dream" cars from knacked old buckets as you suggest (all 1478 of them. Wow, what a market for a mass produced product) are at the same time criticising Land Rover for changing the basic design of the Defender.
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Alex90 Articulating
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Odometer: 861 Location: preston, Lancashire
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject:
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i give up i really do. I thought this was an open forum where people could post thier opinion without having it picked at and belittled by other members. Im very sorry my opinion is flawed and thankyou very much for pointing that out.
__________________________________ 54 reg l200 warrior in black. 2" lift, rough country shocks with prototype bolt on relocation brackets, ralliart power upgrade, egr blanked, realtree camo truckman top, straight through side exit exhaust. |
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scut44 Guest
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject:
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I think your point is good & it is what some people have done,are doing & are planning to do.
You need cash tho for that private build or able to build as a works vehicle, some need more than one capable offroad vehicle.
Some will need to buy now or very soon if they want new the last Defender in Euro 4 state, because they will be landed only able to get the last Defender as a Euro 5 with DPF.
But not that many people pull 22-28 or more grand of their own money from their hipper.
Many buy as a company car, even if a sole trader, or require to lease or buy using a car loan. (tick)
That means they need to buy a vehicle that is not actually theirs untill the end of payment.
Many buy & need to look at selling down the line & are answerable to their accountant or the tax man.
george
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tacr2man Just got MTs
Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Odometer: 208 Location: J10 M40
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject:
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there is another consideration if you are a business or fleet buyer or even a private new car buyer is what that depreciation is going to be , and if the "spanner monkey" is not going to want to buy it at their financial level then it affects the chain all the way up , see what happened with Alfa sud JMHO
__________________________________ 1986 110 CSW 3.9i
1992 90 300tdi auto
1999 Range Rover Dse Auto |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:56 am Post subject:
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Alex90 wrote: | i give up i really do. I thought this was an open forum where people could post thier opinion without having it picked at and belittled by other members. Im very sorry my opinion is flawed and thankyou very much for pointing that out. |
Alex, it is an open forum wich means your opinion is as open to being picked apart as anyone else's. The ciritcism levelled at your comments are entirely legitmate: it simply does NOT add up .. let me explain.
I am one of those "rich individuals" you refer to. £30k is not a massive amount of money to spend on a large 4x4 and buying a brand new 110 is pretty much the only way to get one. Now, my reasons for buying a Landy are varied, including the fact that I like them as much for the faults as the advantages. The main reason, however is that the 110 is the only large 4x4 available that it has permanent 4wd, a central diff and low ratio box which allows me to manoeuvre a heavy trailer on tarmac in low box without damaging the transmission.
The deprecation on a new 110 CSW is about 20% over 3 years (average mileage) which means that over that period compared to anything Japanese or a Disco/RR all costing ~£30k I lose £10k or £12 less. Add into the mix that with a new car I get 3 years warranty, air con, electric windows, heated seats, more soundproofing and better dashboard which I can't get with a rebuilt older car and it is a no brainer. The pre-supposes that I am able to spend £30k on any car.
I am watching for the new, new Defender on the D4 platform. If is kept traditional then I will be buying one - I love the character which is an illnes I realise!
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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200tdi ayre Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Odometer: 32 Location: derby
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject:
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the majority of defender buyers nowadays are farmers and councils, who buy them for there ruggedness, versitility and ease of maintanace and repair, this ease of repair is partly due to there simple construction and make up and the vast ammount of spare parts avalible, i can fit almost every part from the new defendeer to my 1987 90, this is what makes them attravctive, and whatever landrover decide to do to the new model as long as it keeps similar versitility, capacity and simplicity these markets will still buy it, and due to its long life cycle there will always be 'classic' defenders for those who want the traditional look, but with new regulations on safety and emmissions eventally its going to have to change, more sloping bonnet, less aggressive angles, for the safety of pedestrians which is a shame as i love the current shape, but change is inevitable and one day or another its going to happen and were gonna have to accept it, whether we like it or not
__________________________________ anything can be fixed with, baler twine, ducktape, a hammer or your right foot |
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jamie_grieve Articulating
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Odometer: 876 Location: South Scotland
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | i can fit almost every part from the new defendeer to my 1987 90 |
Sadly, this is no longer true. The tyres, windows and a few other parts but not much else. Parts interchangeability used to be a big factor with buying Defenders for fleet use. Now grudgingly the Land Cruiser has this honour with the same engine, driveline and most body parts for most of the last 20 years. One revision in suspension but they kept it all the same since.
Even the Ranger has had less changes than Defender remaining unchanged for most of the last 10 years underneath for ROW customers. There are over 30,000 Rangers in Afghanistan alone. More than the annual production of Defender.
It would be nice to have a crystal ball to know if Land Rover / TATA will keep the same engine for longer than a pair of underpants lasts.
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200tdi ayre Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Odometer: 32 Location: derby
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject:
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the wings, bonnet, bulkhead, doors, tub, engine, drivertrain can all be fitted fairly easily, and id say these parts are a large proportion of the vehicle
__________________________________ anything can be fixed with, baler twine, ducktape, a hammer or your right foot |
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jamie_grieve Articulating
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Odometer: 876 Location: South Scotland
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject:
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the bulk head is completely different from Puma on and no parts at all on it are interchangeable other than the door hinges and screen hinges.
If welding engine mounts, adding a wiring loom and ecu is 'fairly easy' then good for you. For one thing it won't start when it doesn't get a signal from the abs sensors or the pump in the tank so after you changed the entire drive line, changed the fuel tank and put a harness in and the dash to go with the different sensors so the bulkhead cos the dash is different there's not much left.
A Santana PS10 has about as much in common to be fair, and that might be some front axle components and a similar colour.
From the fleet perspective it's another expense siting on the shelf. Yet another set of gaskets, injectors etc. Nothing at all in the engine, gearbox or propshafts is interchangeable so you might as well be looking at buying a different vehicle. I could get pedantic and detail all the bodywork differences but it isn't worth it. The bonnet's different. You can't put a '97 bonnet from one of your old stock or scrapper on a damaged Puma.
Nothing of consequence fits at all.
The point is not one single useful thing from a fleet of 600 ROW defenders will fit on a Puma so the Puma and whatever the new one's called has to line up with the rest now when it comes to bulk vehicle purchasing and it just doesn't stack up.
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:01 am Post subject:
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Fair points Jamie, but ROW is not necessarily all important to LR/Tata at the moment.
After years of restrictions in quality by BMW and Ford, it seems that Tata have let Longbridge build them better. You may find that the new New Defender has a ready market in India and area because of interchangeability with local vehicles - there may yet be method in their madness.
Africa is not the only market in the world and LR, I suspect, sees the Defender as the 'cost' or 'loss leader' that gives substance to the legend on which the RR, Disco, and newer models stand.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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200tdi ayre Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Odometer: 32 Location: derby
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject:
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i seem to have been mis informed, although fitting these parts is what inginuity is about there's ways to do anything
__________________________________ anything can be fixed with, baler twine, ducktape, a hammer or your right foot |
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Alex90 Articulating
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Odometer: 861 Location: preston, Lancashire
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject:
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Thankyou for explaining your point MrD and yes i now see where you are coming from and i agree with what you say. I myself would love a 110 but sadly i cannot afford one new or old.
Yes i understand but there are ways of picking comments apart without causing offence like you have demonstrated and which i am greatful for.
__________________________________ 54 reg l200 warrior in black. 2" lift, rough country shocks with prototype bolt on relocation brackets, ralliart power upgrade, egr blanked, realtree camo truckman top, straight through side exit exhaust. |
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scut44 Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:12 am Post subject:
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4 years is a long time for many more pictures & designs to appear.
I would settle now for a 100" wb version of this cross Freelander/Skoda/Suzuki/Toyota FJ looking vehicle for 25 grand. max,
Happily pay 20 for a basic non electrics controled version.
www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle.aspx?AR=258886
wonder if offroading runflat low profile tyres will be the thing in 2015
& will they do a starter price 2wd only version?
(for the greens)
george
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject:
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Alex90 wrote: | Thankyou for explaining your point MrD and yes i now see where you are coming from and i agree with what you say. I myself would love a 110 but sadly i cannot afford one new or old.
Yes i understand but there are ways of picking comments apart without causing offence like you have demonstrated and which i am greatful for. |
Do you mean "and for which I am grateful"?
ducks, runs and hides
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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