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New 2.2 litre Defender
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jamie_grieve
Articulating


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Odometer: 876
Location: South Scotland



PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: New 2.2 litre Defender Reply with quote

http://www.premiumautoshow.com/2012-land-rover-...erful-engine.html

http://www.landrover.com/gb/en/lr/about-land-ro...efender-for-2012/

Shocked Shocked Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I am very disappointed if this is the junk that Land rover have to turn out to make a living. As a result of this and the appalling performance of the Puma engined Defenders one of the largest defender fleet users in Afghanistan is now looking at Land Cruisers.
I bought 18 Rangers this year instead of Defenders and will probably get an additional 5 Cruisers before Christmas.

What else is there?

I hear they're looking at the fiesta engine for 2013 and using the wiper motor from a series 2 with an electronic plasma controlled hydrogen fuel cell with replaceable duracell (2 xAA batteries not included) for 2014.
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Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Odometer: 39579
Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast


2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I understand the 2.2 is an improvement over the 2.4 which is a great improvement over the TD5 IMO
__________________________________
Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL650 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook!
Jaun the 101 - Gone but not forgotten!
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Stal1878
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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1990 Daihatsu Fourtrak

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It produces the same power and torque as the (crap) puma engine so I agree its not a step forwards, but its hardly a step back....
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excossack
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they would do well with a less complicated version of the TDV6 in the Defender
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jeepmadmike
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Joined: 08 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was the 2.2 lump thats in my Mitsubishi Outlander it would be fantastic

Variable valve timing = steam engine torque & 170+horses

It will drive around in 4th at 30 and u just boot it and it's off Shocked

But then it has wires connected to it so the landy boys would run and hide!

__________________________________
Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.


Last edited by jeepmadmike on Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jeepmadmike
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just looked at the links

Had to giggle when one of the ad's was for a land cruiser Rolling Eyes

__________________________________
Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.
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jamie_grieve
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Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Odometer: 876
Location: South Scotland



PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2.2 tdci is a great engine for sure and well proven in the Mondeo.

It is of no use whatsoever anywhere outside of a select few places in Europe or the States where the fuel and oil available will destroy the engine in a very short time. It is a very highly stressed engine where for the great power outputs it uses tiny components with a high loading which are not designed to be used with bad oils and the maps in the ECU can't handle the parameters the many and various fuels give them so they shut down or go into limp home until the high pressure pump fails due to the poor lubricity of the fuel.

Maybe I just need to stop hoping they will ever make something to compete with Land Cruisers and lower my expectations.

"Defender has consistently sold an average of 25,000 units a year worldwide. Retail and utility customers, armed forces and NGOs in over 100 countries"

Here's the Land Cruiser numbers from the Toyota website:


It's the trend that's interesting which is rising. These numbers are also for all variants too. The 2006 figures for the heavy duty land cruisers better compared to Defender are 43,747 units in 2006 also as part of a climbing trend so probably way over 50,000 units now. More than double Defender sales.
It's just one example, if you were to look at other brands you'd see the same thing but the Defender is stagnating.
It would be interesting to know what Land Rovers' long term strategy is for the utility and developing world markets where they are constantly losing ground.

For those who don't know I am actually a dyed in the wool Land Rover fan having owned a few of every variant from series to 300Tdi and rebuilt and competed in quite a few and still have the unfinished carcass of one to go back to one day.
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RichardD
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamie, I am very surprised at your view of the puma engine. I have a puma 110 and a TD5 and the puma makes the same power and torque as standard as a well worked over TD5. I've done over 20k miles in both and I find the puma to be a better all round power plant.

It is the transit van engine and proven to be good for several hundred thousand miles of abuse! I can confirm it does not like biodiesel but then as most are sold in 1st world countries it's not a problem.

__________________________________
Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil that made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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scut44
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do appear to be pricing them to sell.
I would think probably they are available for UK buyers at the most affordable comparably than ever before.
(The other manufacturers available 4x4's & pickups have reached very high prices for even base models in the UK.)

The prices of base before extras on Minis, Mini Countryman 4x4, Freelander & Evoque is ridiculous,
but if they are being used to subsidise the lower price of a new Defender then thats a good thing IMO.

george

.
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Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Odometer: 39579
Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast


2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Land Rover is owned by Tata, Mini is manufactured by BMW Confused
__________________________________
Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL650 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook!
Jaun the 101 - Gone but not forgotten!
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scut44
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of meant owning a supposed 'British icon' product,(status product) tho not actually British (image status) costs a fortune, which people are willing to pay
&
the 'Range Rover' products are damn expensive, but people are willing to pay.
BUT, the Defender is starting to look a bargain if you can actually get an Offroad package one for £21500.

Embarassed
Sorry if my diatribe looks like i meant Mini buyers are included in helping Land Rover owners get a bargain, i meant the RR product buyers.

Idea
We are all paying to keep Land Rover & BMW going tho 'Possibly!!',
I think Ford/BMW/TATA were paid to take the British iconic motor money pit
& probably still are being paid for taking them off our hands.
george

.


Last edited by scut44 on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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jamie_grieve
Articulating


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Odometer: 876
Location: South Scotland



PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jamie, I am very surprised at your view of the puma engine


Please read it in the context above, these Ford engines are great. In Fords.
In a vehicle in the UK or whatever developed country (no mention of the English riots now!! Razz ) They no doubt will be a useful engine. All be it a PITA for the parts guys and fleet users who now need a whole different set of parts on the shelf for the few vehicles they bought that year. Parts inter changeability used to be an argument in favour of the Defender, not against it.
Outside of these regions where there exists a huge market is where I'm suggesting LR should have a product. They used to have a rest of world spec (ROW) which was assembled alongside the Td5's. This was discontinued and is where I see an opportunity missed. That of a simple 4x4 with a heavy chassis, low stressed engine and driveline components with simple and rudimentary bodywork. Leaf springs would be fine. IVECO missed out big time with their failure to launch the Massif which has missed the boat now by a long way.
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scut44
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The UK press release for the Ford Ranger has stuff like,

'Ford reveals its new Ranger Pick-up range.
This VW Amarok rival has been designed by Ford Australia, & offers five different bodystyles.
The most efficient model features a new 148bhp 2.2 litre TDCi diesel.

I hope this does prove to be a great engine in the long run & stays available for a few years to come & will last out my lifetime.
The next lot of Euro Emission rules
& vehicles that comply to them are not going to be to my taste.

I hope to be able for a little while yet to buy new in Europe/UK something that comes without Day Time running lights that cant be switched off in the day time & which will be allowed to run on semi offroad tyres.

george

.
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HardTopsUK
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points: Cleaner, more efficient and more reliable engine.

Bad points: Still alot of money for very little and poor performance.


For me I would prefer to Import a New Iveco Massif with the 3.0 Power plant from cyprus it works out cheaper.
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jojo
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Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Odometer: 4745




PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new engined Defender will do what it is desigened to do and what the vast majority of buyers want from a simple working utility vehicle. LR (even if under the name Tata) will have done things to the engine to ensure that it will still work and have an adequate oil supply etc at off-road angles. LR (or Tata if you prefer) will have a range of engines for use outside of the EU. These will almost certainly include TD5. 300tdi and normally aspirated 2.5 diesels.

LR make their money out of expensive Range Rovers and Discos plus the new Evoque (or whatever it is called). My view is that Tata will market a new replacement for the Defender soon - just as soon as they have been given enough British LR knowhow to do it.

J
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jamie_grieve
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Joined: 19 Aug 2009
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Location: South Scotland



PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
These will almost certainly include TD5. 300tdi and normally aspirated 2.5 diesels.


Sadly not, the Td5 doesn't count as it's not ROW capable and the last ROW spec vehicle came off the production line in 2009 I think. I can't remember exactly when but I was with the organisation that bought the last ones and it was around then.
The quality had really dropped by then too.

The phrase 'simple utility vehicle" doesn't apply to the Defender in any shape or form. You're right too, the 2.2 will probably perform for the majority of buyers. They will already have looked at it, it's rivals and made a decision. My point is and the numbers above show Defender is losing potential customers in the vital areas that create the image that sells Land Rover.
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jojo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right about the Defender being the image that sells Land Rovers, but if you look at where the profits are now it's the RRs and Discos that are selling well and making the profit.

I wonder, and it is just a thought, do LR want to change the image that sells LRs to one of RRs and Discos etc leaving the Defender image to Tata in India where my guess is that the Defender replacement will be produced. Strange thing this marketing strategy.

J
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jamie_grieve
Articulating


Joined: 19 Aug 2009
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Location: South Scotland



PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you've ht the nail on the head there.

The luxury market is where the profit margins are and things aren't cut to the bone as much. Luxury items in general are using disposable income where as utility vehicles are bought on a more rational basis based on function.
I for one will be very interested to see what Tata comes up with. I looked at their Econoline range before buying the Rangers and the durability and quality looked like they were going to be an issue. The newer 3L ones look pretty good on paper at least.
A vehicle with a Land Rover badge would have to meet certain quality standards and sales in the US would ensure that.
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jerryd
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Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Odometer: 1682
Location: Dayboro - Queensland



PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We constantly hear bad reports about "Toyotas" over here, personally I don't rate them at all after purchasing one that turned into a nightmare, I was certainly glad to get rid of it .

Have a read here http://www.ohwhatalemon.com/ Smile


At least the iconic defender will keep it's looks for another year Rolling Eyes

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" the pom down under "
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scut44
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todays Auto Express 24th-30th states,
' the wraps come off the Land Rover Defender's successor at next months Frankfurt Motor Show.'

First images will be released next week of this "futuristic reinvention of the current car, rather than a simple facelift."

I will be interesting to see how near it is to those pictures a while back in Auto Express of something that looked like a childs drawing of a plastic bodied Suzuki.

george

.
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tacr2man
Just got MTs


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Odometer: 208
Location: J10 M40



PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Defender is on a slide into oblivion, how long it will take is debatable, the excuse that it no longer can comply with regs will be used when the production quantity becomes embarrassing for Land Rover ( in other words when it begins to detract from the luxury brand image) . Its sales demographic , is rapidly approaching that of Mini(new) Fiat 500 and Vw campervans. i.e. nostalgia . As a world contender in the utility 4x4 market its almost a non event , and I have been an enthusiast for more than 40yrs , and used them in several continents . I would not buy one as a new product now if I was in that market. They have always had foibles that needed to be accepted but the good points outweighed the bad , but the good points have been getting less and less IMHO. I have got the impression that defender as a product from the point of view of Landrover management is just kept going as a cost/benefit judgement , keeping funding as low as possible whilst achieving the continuation . We are pretty well back to the leyland days with the series vehicle !! Its sad in a way , but i wish they would end the pain before the final image is that of a fading film star JMHO .
__________________________________
1986 110 CSW 3.9i
1992 90 300tdi auto
1999 Range Rover Dse Auto
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cynic-al
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1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the engine can't be that bad as a worker, 360Nm at 2000rpm, my 3.0 isuzu isn't much above those figures! Although the isuzu quote around 40 more horses Confused
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scut44
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The DPF is the problem really, just hopeless when it comes to actual slow use offroad or sitting with stationary for any time with your engine running.

These are old pics i know, but
I hope whoever had anything to do with this monster or even mocking up images, has nothing to do with what replaces the Defender.

george
http://blog.landrover.com/vehicles/defender/wha...html#ax2219LVoiCj




Last edited by scut44 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reg should read VX56 EEK
__________________________________
Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL650 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook!
Jaun the 101 - Gone but not forgotten!
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cynic-al
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1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope they don't do that with the defender, if they do they might as well just drop it and do an uprated commercial freelander, it's lost every reason why someone buys a defender.
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burko_uk
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're missing the point - no-one IS buying the Defender. Lots of people DO buy Disco's, Freelanders and will buy Evoques so it's inevitable that any future vehicle will follow those lines, albeit a model that can be built with a commercial option (a better option than the Disco commercial - is that even available as a D4?).

Have LR said it will be a Defender. I've only see press releases refering to "Project Icon" or the "Defender Replacement". Doesn't mean it will be a Defender.
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scut44
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont think they are saying its a 'Defender'.

'Land Rover Defender's successor'
sounds like what comes after the Defender. Wink

But then they sometimes say something else.
(or their publicity machine does)
http://blog.landrover.com/vehicles/defender/wha...html#ax2219LVoiCj

george

.
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jeepmadmike
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toyota make the 70 series land cruiser for the third world and industrial / military use, it's simple, rugged and so very very well made.

Land rover sell a few defenders to the third world and the country want to be's in the UK

TBH if a 90 was half as good as my 20 year old Yota I would buy a new one! but what ever engine they put in, they will still have so many bad points

It's a shame because it should be as good as the Toyota.

__________________________________
Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.
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excossack
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe cross breed the front of a disco/range rover with the rear defender from the bulkhead back and improve the quality of the final fit
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HardTopsUK
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

burko_uk wrote:
You're missing the point - no-one IS buying the Defender. Lots of people DO buy Disco's, Freelanders and will buy Evoques so it's inevitable that any future vehicle will follow those lines, albeit a model that can be built with a commercial option (a better option than the Disco commercial - is that even available as a D4?).


I agree. Over the last 24 months when buying commercial vehicles at auctions around the uk the most popular LR vehicle is the Freelander 1 TD4 commercial followed by the Freelander 2 commercial. Most Defenders often go unsold or are bought by enthusiast seeking that particular model. The vehicles that has sold exceedingly well over the last 12 months are the pick up range from various manufactures. Usually in the 2.5 manual form.

TJ
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