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boss Just got MTs
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Odometer: 262 Location: norfolk
1995 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: tube benders - whats what?
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alot of threads popping up about tube bending and benders....
hopefully this thread should answer a few questions some have.
this thread is baised apon my own experiances
first things first, is it cheaper to build your own cage?
in short, no. if you have to buy all the equipment yourself your looking at over 1k if your using midrange equipment. ofcourse you can shave costs by econamising.
is it easey?
no, but it gets easeyer .
is it quicker?
not if you havnt done one before
unless building stuff is your hobby or you plan on building another frame i would not advise buying your own bender. but if your still interested read on
the way i see it there are 2 ways being discussed of going down this road and they both revolve around one subject; ratchet bender or centrepress bender
centre press benders look apealing due to there price but there is a definate reason why there so cheap, to be blunt there no good. you end up with flatspots in your bends, that is if you tube doesnt fold up and kink. but they are very very easey to use
the ratchet bender is 10 times the price of the average centre press but the result it 10 times better. my one has very little distortion over a 180 degree bend and the distortion it does present is expected over such a large angle.
this was produced with a ratchet bender
this with a centre press
you can see the difference in the bends dispite the poor photos.
as said the centre press bender is the cheaper alterative but doesnt achieve the best result. i found this video very helpfull when using my old one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWT3N3m4bE4
if you are using the snd bending method make sure you do pack the sand down tight, he definatly doesnt stress that enough....
now ive moved on to a ratchet bender at great cost to my self im very very pleased with the result. and now i have it it doesnt cost me any money, it doesnt distort the tube like the centre press ones so if any tube does go to the scrap bin i have only my self to blame.
but dont think its just a matter of buying a bender you also haveto decide on weather you want to notch the tube with a grinder, hole saws, plasma cutter, belt sander, mill the list goes on. also keeping things on the same plain isa bit of an issue. ive see people put a long spirit level over a bent to keep the next one on the same plain but i opted for a magnetic angle gauge
there is also the plan of your cage. i just freestyled it which was a big mistake but its one i have to live with, you can get tube bending softwhere where you can draw out your cage and it will calculate exacly where you want to start your bend on the tube and how far to go.
EDIT:
what is a ratchet bender?
answer is in the name, you use a ratcheting arm to rotate the die around a former, this is what stops the tube from flattening out, wrinkeling or creasing while bending aside from the cost of these benders the main downfall is that you have to be fairly physically able you pull the lever around to actually bend things. but the end result greatly outweighs its downfalls
as you can see in the pic my apprentace struggled to bend 2"ERW tube
and i get left to do the CDS
there are hydraulic conversions for these benders but this equipment is often very overpriced and is normally much more economicly sound to fabricate your own conversion as most of these ratchet benders are built in the states.with these benders you purchase the dies seperatly which is where the expence is. normally when you purchase a centre press you get a selection fo dies with it but when you buy the ratchets you haveto specify what die you want, these can range between 90 to 400 pounds and maby more depending the size of the tube you want to bend, the radius you want to bend it over and weather you want to bend 90degrees or 180.
what is a centre press?
a centrepress bender is esentially a bottle jack with a former around it. it pushes the tube around the former and normally 2 rollers at each end of its chassis. an advantage to these benders are that you can mark out the centre of your bend put that mark in the centre of the die and bend untill you reach your desired angle where as the ratchet benders bend back from a marked line so it can be a bit tricky to effectively use them for multiple bends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ct-XrXX2vc
this video shows a converted centrepress that runs on an compressor, where as it normally works like a bottlejack but even in this video you can see the distortion levels of unprepped tube in one of these things. not even an angle greater than 45 degrees. filling the tube can stop this but the quality will not be to the standards of the ratchets.
i have probibly missed alot of info out but im sure others will post with there own experiances and some more info on whats what. havnt even scratched the surface with what i have written.
this is the place to ask questions, dont go starting new threads
if what ive said here is helpfull to just one person i will be happey
HTH
boss
__________________________________ BOSSFAB
pm me for tube manipulation
2lb club hammer?......HA! my club hammer is a cut down sledge!
Last edited by boss on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:09 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject:
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not bad write up
i started with a ceterpress bender and i never had any probs with kinks or flatening and was fine upto a 90 degree bend the diference is in the formers the chepo ones are very shallow and dont suport the sidewall of the pipe the early sealy ones had cast formers that fitted the pipe better hence the better bends
but i too went onto a ratchet bender mainly because i needed to do more complex bends so i got a jd2 as a manual (long handle) which is ok but the bender has to be fixed solidly and after doing a few becomes very hard work(could be im lazy) so converted it to run hydraulicly which i will never go back because its sat on a movable trolly and can be move around when needed
and can do a 180 at the press of a button
another handy thing is to get a can of ptfe spray and just give the formers a quick spray it will stop the tube jamming in the formers and stop them gailing
also DO NOT try and bend rusty tube it will damage the follow bar and jam up the bender( clean it off with a soft pad)
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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boss Just got MTs
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Odometer: 262 Location: norfolk
1995 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject:
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edit 31/3/11
better photos will be added when i have them.
any photos of your bender minimog?
__________________________________ BOSSFAB
pm me for tube manipulation
2lb club hammer?......HA! my club hammer is a cut down sledge! |
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject:
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i will take some over weekend for you
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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350 Vortec Just got MTs
Joined: 22 Mar 2011 Odometer: 169 Location: Ireland,East
1998 Nissan patrol
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:45 am Post subject:
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Great stuff,thanks for info,i bought a JD some time ago with 1 1/4 tube former-now want to buy a bigger former but not sure what size would be best,1 3/4 seems to be most popular for roll cage,tube buggy etc-any opinions??(most use pipe formers here but i think tube is my preference)
Agree with minimog re 3point bender,good tight formers make the difference(and heavy pipe)
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boss Just got MTs
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Odometer: 262 Location: norfolk
1995 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:34 am Post subject:
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i have a 180 degree 2 "7.5CLR former on my jd and it cost over 400 quid! i dont think a 180 degree former is nessasary tbh. tubela are the main importers of jd2 i have there price list but its probibly useless now.
but i wanted to use 2" CDS because of the weight of my truck. and if it did end up on its roof i wanted it to hold up.
could have got a 6.5CLR for a little less but there were risks of wrinkeling 2.6mm wall tube with a radius that small.
__________________________________ BOSSFAB
pm me for tube manipulation
2lb club hammer?......HA! my club hammer is a cut down sledge! |
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350 Vortec Just got MTs
Joined: 22 Mar 2011 Odometer: 169 Location: Ireland,East
1998 Nissan patrol
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:27 am Post subject:
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Thanks for reply boss,yes formers seem very expensive,i'm inclined to go for the 1 3/4 and as for CLR etc-i'm guessing a 6.5(if available) would suit smaller Dia tube,as far as tube prices go-what sizes are best value and readily available,i'd probably be using mostly mild steel
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject:
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i have a 1 1/2" pipe(48mm) 6.5 clr and a 1 1/4" pipe 6.5clr and a 1" ****.5 clr all are good with 2.5mm wall but like you said you prob better paying a little less and get the 90 degree dies unless you want to make shock hoops
and this is mine on its trolly with pump and ram
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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clbarclay Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Odometer: 1779 Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject:
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If you want to do the occasional bend over 90 degrees with only a 90 degree die, what is there to stop you just bending it in two parts, re-jigging the bender back round what you have just bent?
__________________________________ The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
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boss Just got MTs
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Odometer: 262 Location: norfolk
1995 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject:
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clbarclay wrote: | If you want to do the occasional bend over 90 degrees with only a 90 degree die, what is there to stop you just bending it in two parts, re-jigging the bender back round what you have just bent? |
i would have to have a look. im sure if you could do that there wouldnt be much call for the 180s
__________________________________ BOSSFAB
pm me for tube manipulation
2lb club hammer?......HA! my club hammer is a cut down sledge! |
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject:
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you would be suprised how much i use bends over 90 degrees
just look at the tube work on the yuppy jeep my tj bumper shock hoops for zooks/jeeps
and its not as the 90 degree dies are half the price of a 180 so i work on the principle
id rather have it and not use it than need it and not have it
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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boss Just got MTs
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Odometer: 262 Location: norfolk
1995 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject:
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minimog wrote: | id rather have it and not use it than need it and not have it |
if this was face book i would like that
__________________________________ BOSSFAB
pm me for tube manipulation
2lb club hammer?......HA! my club hammer is a cut down sledge! |
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Blue dragon Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Odometer: 180 Location: Midlands UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject:
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I made a cheepo bender with a former and a bottle jack. The trick is to take the tube with the former not try to form the tube around a stationary former. I machined the straight outer former from aluminium to cut down on the machining effort. I find that a little oil on this helps the tube to slide in. I can get about 120 deg perfect bends ... it takes some pumping though !
__________________________________ Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy |
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weldingscotty803 Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Apr 2010 Odometer: 275 Location: chesterfield
1996 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:14 am Post subject:
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Blue dragon wrote: | I made a cheepo bender with a former and a bottle jack. The trick is to take the tube with the former not try to form the tube around a stationary former. I machined the straight outer former from aluminium to cut down on the machining effort. I find that a little oil on this helps the tube to slide in. I can get about 120 deg perfect bends ... it takes some pumping though !
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have you got any pictures or plans for the bender you've made. Looks a simple design. I can get the formers and dies made up. I just Cant get my head round how it works. May be because its early. Is the tube fixed on the rear then the former presses it down? Cheers
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Blue dragon Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Odometer: 180 Location: Midlands UK
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:43 am Post subject:
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The round inner former is on a pivot about its centre. The straight outer former is help stationary. The pipe goes between them both and I made a clamp which holds it relative to the inner former so that when it turns it takes the pipe with it and starts the bend. The jack simply pushes the inner former round ... it has two holes in the former 1 to do the first 90 deg then you change the pin to go further round if needed. No drawings Im affraid I just made it on the bench !
__________________________________ Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy |
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boss Just got MTs
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Odometer: 262 Location: norfolk
1995 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject:
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love it.
i can imagine it takes some pumping, the JD2s come with a 1.5m lever and at 14 stone and fairly well built i still struggle to bend 2" CDS
__________________________________ BOSSFAB
pm me for tube manipulation
2lb club hammer?......HA! my club hammer is a cut down sledge! |
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350 Vortec Just got MTs
Joined: 22 Mar 2011 Odometer: 169 Location: Ireland,East
1998 Nissan patrol
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject:
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Back and forth with JD Squared recently RE 48mm Dies,they say i need min of 4mm for 5.5 CLR,3mm for 6.5CLR and touch and go at that,i'm guessing they play it safe but any views from experience?i know you said no prob with 2.5mm on 6.5CLR minimog,would like usable tight/light as poss radius
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Normbourne Gate Opener
Joined: 11 Oct 2013 Odometer: 7 Location: North Queensland
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Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject:
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Hi guys,
All good stuff, but my prob is the bending of exhaust tubing, I have considered packing with sand but wonder if this would be adequate to prevent the tube deforming considering its thin wall nature.
Anyway, would appreciate any advice.
Thanks,
Norm.
__________________________________ There will never be a computer which is quite fast enough or has quite enough memory...! |
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