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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: Group B only driving licence?
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Hi,
I've copied this from the Practical Caravan website, sub-heading Towing and Driving Safely There is a lot of discussion following this opening mail.
602
Changes are in the pipeline concerning EU-wide driving licence categories. The current restriction on a Category B licence which does not allow the MTPLM of the trailer (caravan) to exceed the MIRO (kerbweight) of the towcar will be lifted. Only the gross train weight limit of 3500kg will continue to apply.
A new Category B96 will be introduced allowing a gross train weight of 4250kg (again, no weight ratio restriction)..
The above changes will make a Category B+E licence superfluous for most caravan owners.
I don't know when these changes will come into effect in the UK. as local laws must be brought into line accordingly and this can take time which may vary from country to country. (In Germany the implementation date will be 19.01.2013).
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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cynic-al Mud Obsessed
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Odometer: 6062 Location: scunthorpe
1989 Suzuki SJ
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject:
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it was always over complicated before so would make it easier for people to be legal. Either that or just outright say license B for car, B+E for car and trailer, thats even simpler
__________________________________ I know enough to be dangerous. |
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excossack Mud Obsessed
Joined: 06 Mar 2005 Odometer: 2903 Location: Somewhere
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject:
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MTPLM ?
MIRO ?
__________________________________ Thanks - John |
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject:
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excossack wrote: | MTPLM ?
MIRO ? |
Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass
Used to be Gross Weight, and is also called MAM - Maximum allowed mass
Mass In Running Order
Kerbweight.
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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ali-lee Just got MTs
Joined: 16 Feb 2010 Odometer: 147 Location: carnwath
1990 Toyota Hilux
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject:
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dose that mean it would be legal to load, say for instance a hilux onto a nice big tri axle trailer along with a load of spares and some bags of sand just for the hell of it, and tow it with a corsa?
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clbarclay Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006 Odometer: 1779 Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:41 am Post subject:
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No because you would still be exceeding the rated towing capacity of the Corsa.
__________________________________ The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
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ali-lee Just got MTs
Joined: 16 Feb 2010 Odometer: 147 Location: carnwath
1990 Toyota Hilux
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject:
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ahh sorry, i see it now.
so basically anyone with a cat B (that passed after 97 was it?) can now drive a car and loaded trailer that adds up to 3500 kg.
provided that the mam plate on the trailer, or full weight of the trailer and its load, dose not exceed the towing limit of the tow vehicle
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paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject:
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ali-lee wrote: | ahh sorry, i see it now.
so basically anyone with a cat B (that passed after 97 was it?) can now drive a car and loaded trailer that adds up to 3500 kg.
provided that the mam plate on the trailer, or full weight of the trailer and its load, dose not exceed the towing limit of the tow vehicle |
They're proposed changes, not in place yet. Since they're not decided upon, you can't really say what they'll end up like. But they might make it retrospective (so it applies for anyone who took just their car test from 97) or they might apply it for those who take a car test from when the law is introduced. So there will be 3 variations of car driving test and entitlements out there.
Its not complicated. Don't worry about what anyone else can drive, or tow. Just know your own licence and what you yourself can do.
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cai876 Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Jul 2008 Odometer: 110
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject:
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I don't think that people who can drive a car should automatically be allowed to tow trailers. Many people can tow a trailer and reverse it competently. But the vast majority can't.
I live in a rural place so most people can tow a trailer well since they have done it for years. But we get LOADS of people coming from the other side of the border in their caravans who can't reverse to save their lives.
I say keep it as it is, or remove the right to tow a trailer completely from the license.
__________________________________ 1994 Isuzu Trooper 3.1TD 143,000 miles - Dead
2000 Suzuki GV2000 with VW 1.9TDI conversion - Goes like stink and does a million miles to the gallon |
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paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject:
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cai876 wrote: | .......But the vast majority can't.......
we get LOADS of people coming from the other side of the border in their caravans who can't reverse to save their lives.
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The problem is, they don't do much better once the trailer is detached!!!
BUT any government who introduces the solution to the problem - frequent driving re-tests - will be remembered as the most unpopular ever, and get promptly unelected next time round.
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Tramp Off-Road Guru
Joined: 16 May 2007 Odometer: 1745 Location: Rotherham
1992 Suzuki Samurai
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject:
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paul_c wrote: |
BUT any government who introduces the solution to the problem - frequent driving re-tests - will be remembered as the most unpopular ever, and get promptly unelected next time round. |
I don't know I'd vote for it, Its about time all those Incapable and Incompitant drivers were off the road, it would make the roads alot safer place. The revenue generated from
A,the unlisenced using public transport and
B, the cost of retaking the test
could be used to benefit the road system. After all driving should be priviledge that is earnt,
__________________________________ No Mud to Deep, No Hill to Steep!
http://www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk |
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Winnet Difflock Royalty
Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Odometer: 14725 Location: Aberdeen
1985 Land Rover
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:37 am Post subject:
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paul_c wrote: | frequent driving re-tests |
Then we will moan about a new "tax" being forced upon us in a cynical money making exercise and obviously it will be a major infringement of our civil liberties and general human rights as enshrined in the European act............
Good idea apart from that.
G.
__________________________________ Bored......
All these questions and more after the tea break. |
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paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:52 am Post subject:
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It wasn't a serious suggestion.
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Winnet Difflock Royalty
Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Odometer: 14725 Location: Aberdeen
1985 Land Rover
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject:
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Let not fact get in the way of a good wind-up lol
g.
__________________________________ Bored......
All these questions and more after the tea break. |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:50 am Post subject:
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Winnet wrote: | paul_c wrote: | frequent driving re-tests |
Then we will moan about a new "tax" being forced upon us in a cynical money making exercise and obviously it will be a major infringement of our civil liberties and general human rights as enshrined in the European act............
Good idea apart from that.
G. |
May I respectfully refer you all to my Manifesto for Transport Czar.
RichardD wrote: | Our road system is close to collapse. It cannot be denied any longer, we will not die from climate change but from boredom whilst stuck in traffic. Fear not, my people, for The Spike has the solution – get rid of all the bad drivers and make me Dictator of the Roads.
The problem is not just the number of cars on the road but the fact that they are often driven very badly. Years of “Speed Kills” has taught us that keeping within an arbitrary speed limit gives us moral height that offsets incompetence and that lack of insurance claims (ie lower premiums) equates to better driving. In every other dangerous activity or position of responsibility we are expected to continually update and develop our knowledge and skills with the sole exception of driving and if we are to rescue our road system this attitude must be changed. This is my manifesto.
Driving Tests
1. Age limit for riding 50cc scooters lowered to 15.
2. Accompanied driving age lowered to 16 (like some US states)
3. Theory test as now but made harder
4. After passing test age 17-21 engine size limit to under 1300cc or 60KW – no engine mods allowed
5. After passing test over 21 engine size limit to under 1600cc or 75KW for 12 months no engine mods
6. Points limit of 3 for 1st 12 months, 6 in 1st 24 months
7. Zero tolerance of drink driving under age 21. If caught 12 month ban followed by full removal of licence i.e. back to theory test level.
8. Test should consist of 3 parts (like motorbikes)
a. Theory test
b. Basic competence – passed on private land before going on road
c. Full test – at least 45 minutes including motorway driving
9. Once passed you then have regular ‘assessments’ to update you and check you are still safe to drive.
Driving Assessment
Involves a 30-minute drive with a driving instructor followed by manoeuvres, 15 minutes of testing on Highway Code and general updating on changes. These are required on the following schedule
5 years after test or age 25 (whichever is first), then every 5 years until age 55
From age 60 every 3 years until age 75 then every 2 years until age 85
From age 85 annual tests required.
Note
Assessments are an evaluation of competence
If a driver fails to meet the required standard they will have 4 weeks grace to improve.
If they still fail then a test with the DSA will be required. If they fail that then they will have to do one the following according to fail level:
Driving lessons followed by re-assessment
Driving lessons followed by re-test
Re-sit of theory test
Re-sit of theory test followed by re-assessment
Start over from start!
Disabled drivers
Must be able to drive to the same standard as everyone else
Allowances should be made for disabilities NOT including age related.
Should realise that that blue sticker means priority parking not a licence to drive like a moron
Cost of assessments to be borne by the Driver –
Will reduce claims and therefore premiums
will create over 5,000 new jobs,
reduce roads deaths
increase road related productivity
reduce congestion
Annual requirements to be included as part of vehicle licensing
Provision of suitable eye test confirming legal level of eyesight acuity (for all insured drivers)
Valid MOT as appropriate
Insurance certificate
RFL to include Government backed 3rd party liability for ALL vehicles, legal or not (as in Australia)
Insurance requirements
Insurance certificate to include a disc akin to RFL disc to be displayed on vehicle AT ALL TIMES (as in Eire)
Insurance disc to show expiry date in large digits
Insurance paid monthly will require a new disc each month.
This is my manifesto, vote for me!
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I've not mentioned trailers or caravans but assume that it needs to be covered in appropriate testing.
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Winnet Difflock Royalty
Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Odometer: 14725 Location: Aberdeen
1985 Land Rover
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:12 pm Post subject:
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What about a-frames?
G.
__________________________________ Bored......
All these questions and more after the tea break. |
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cai876 Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Jul 2008 Odometer: 110
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject:
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Quote: | After passing test age 17-21 engine size limit to under 1300cc or 60KW – no engine mods allowed |
__________________________________ 1994 Isuzu Trooper 3.1TD 143,000 miles - Dead
2000 Suzuki GV2000 with VW 1.9TDI conversion - Goes like stink and does a million miles to the gallon |
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RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:25 pm Post subject:
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Winnet wrote: | What about a-frames?
G. |
You need a ******* licence to be near a keyboard today!
cai876 wrote: | Quote: | After passing test age 17-21 engine size limit to under 1300cc or 60KW – no engine mods allowed |
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Well, if bikers are limited that way for their own safety then why not car drivers. It solves a pile of problems AND should reduce casualties and therefore insurance costs massively
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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LlaniGraham Mud Obsessed
Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Odometer: 2701 Location: Llanidloes
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject:
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The problem with limiting car drivers of a certain age to a certain power/cc size is availability, as not everyone has a suitable car if they are a one car family. Doing it that way would mean many people might have to buy additional seperate cars for the young to drive.
__________________________________ MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales |
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ScottieJ Guest
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject:
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I like this, it means I wont need to take a 'rip off' trailer test to tow my sj on a trailer, finally I can build an offroad only 4x4
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ScottieJ Guest
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Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject:
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RichardD wrote: | Winnet wrote: | What about a-frames?
G. |
You need a ******* licence to be near a keyboard today!
cai876 wrote: | Quote: | After passing test age 17-21 engine size limit to under 1300cc or 60KW – no engine mods allowed |
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Well, if bikers are limited that way for their own safety then why not car drivers. It solves a pile of problems AND should reduce casualties and therefore insurance costs massively |
you can still drive like a **** no mater what size your engine is! that wouldn't make the roads any safer IMO
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject:
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I don't think engine size is a suitable limit, my 26bhp Fiat 126 would do 70mph quite easily, and the 38bhp 900cc Cinqucento would do nearly 90mph....
In my experience 30mph is quite fast enough to have a bad accident!
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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cynic-al Mud Obsessed
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Odometer: 6062 Location: scunthorpe
1989 Suzuki SJ
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:54 am Post subject:
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other problem with limiting engine size is your limiting peoples employment options. I had jobs below 21 which entailed (but was not the sole purpose of the job) driving company vehicles which was anything from a 1500d corsa to a 2300td van. All of which would not be allowed under your rules?
What about farmers driving tractors from 16 and lorry drivers driving lorries from 18?
__________________________________ I know enough to be dangerous. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject:
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The problem with limiting car drivers of a certain age to a certain power/cc size is availability, as not everyone has a suitable car if they are a one car family.
Hi,
If you need a big car, then it might work cheaper overall if you have a big car AND a small car, do half the miles in each.
5000 miles at 35p/mile + 5000 miles at 70p/mile works out £1750 less than 10,000 miles at 70p/mile. Figures get cloudy when you involve 2nd hand cars, or only have one NCB.
Good excuse to have a 4x4 as well as a Eurobox, tell your wife.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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LlaniGraham Mud Obsessed
Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Odometer: 2701 Location: Llanidloes
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject:
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But your presumption, 602, is that everyone can afford 2 cars, which is often not the case.
__________________________________ MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject:
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Hi Llanigraham,
Yeah, I considered that. But if somebody can afford to run a big car, it is worth looking to see if they can run a small one as well. I'll try and figure out the sums.
I knew one bloke who couldn't afford to run an old car, but could afford to run a new one. His new job involved very high milage getting to/from work. The new car was more economical.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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LlaniGraham Mud Obsessed
Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Odometer: 2701 Location: Llanidloes
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject:
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OK?
Typical poorly paid worker runs a 1600cc Mondeo/Vectra.
Son or daughter passes test, but is also low paid.
Why should they be forced to buy an extra small car, thereby doubling the tax and insurance, thereby INCREASING the number of vehicles on the road?
__________________________________ MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject:
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Hi Llanigraham,
I'm not looking for an argument, not trying to force anybody to buy a car if they don't want to. But lets run with it anyway.
There are 30,000,000 drivers, and there are 30,000,000 vehicles (give or take). They don't all drive at the same time. But how many wives drive hubby to work, then return home with the car so they can drive the kids to school. Then repeat in the evening. Twice as many journeys as would be needed if they had a car each. Come to that, the wives in my previous town would go shopping by taxi ... again twice as many journeys as using their own car.
Define "poorly paid"? In 1992 our household income was £1,100 per month. I had just finished a self-build .... over draft of £65,000 at 18%, personal loan, mortgage on previous house (that nobody could afford to buy), etc. The houses were costing us £750 per month, leaving £350 to live on. Does that count as poorly paid? Two young children, a German Shepherd, three horses, two donkeys. But we still managed to run a car each. We did eat the pigs and a couple of goats, but I can't say I enjoyed it.
We went to see our bank manager to see if we could juggle figures so that we could rent the old house, let it pay for itself.
"We are not in the business of lending money to people who can't pay it back" said the bank manager.
"Thats not what I heard", said Barbara.
"What do you mean?"
"What about all the Third World debts?" You have to admire my wife's diplomatic skills.
I could feel the room literally go cold. As we walked back to our car, Barbara quietly said "We are going to have to move our mortgage". Don't ask me how we did it, but we had a mortgage offer within a couple of weeks.
At that time, a neighbour was getting benefits, in cash and kind, almost equal to my wife's take home pay ..... and driving a taxi in the evening. His car was an old Sierra.
As I said earlier, define "poorly paid". My mate is getting about £35,000pa from his various enterprises, but is constantly overdrawn. He pays a bloke who works for him £45 a day ... out of which the bloke has just bought a new 32" TV .... cash.
Everybody reaches a state of povety by their own route. Some drink and smoke, some have holidays in the Carribean, some buy new cars.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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cynic-al Mud Obsessed
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Odometer: 6062 Location: scunthorpe
1989 Suzuki SJ
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject:
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with software as it is your could have driver recognition which tunes the engine output accordingly, or even limit speed, acceleration or be wired to the satnav to ensure the car doesn't speed
Still won't stop the new driver making poor judgement though
__________________________________ I know enough to be dangerous. |
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w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject:
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Hi Cynic-al
I understand that some cars are already programed to accept a satalite signal that would prevent them exceeding the speed limit.
Also, at least one insurance company can provide a new driver with a black box that records their journeys, and sends them a bill for any journeys deemed tp have been made at dangerous times. The advantage is that the basic premium is substantialy reduced. Name that insurer!
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
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