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jacko-68 Gate Opener
Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Odometer: 2
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: Transaxle buggies/triallers
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I’ve been reading the lightweight rockcrawler & little tube buggy thread amongst other articles…The idea seems ideal for this type of buggy:-light weight, low polar moment of inertia, good gearing etc.
Checking the regulations of various clubs this configuration is allowable; even within the ALRC (using freelander engine & gearbox or pre 2002 Rover).
My question is why are there none competing? The only buggies I have found with this set up that have done well in competition are the Scandinavian “Spider” buggies in the Eurotrial. AWDC etc all seem to be Range Rover or Suzuki based, the American buggies are a similar engine-RWD gearbox-transfer box setup whether front or rear engined.
I’m quite liking the idea of a coil sprung 80” with a Freelander KV6…with the IRD the ratios are good even with RR diffs javascript:emoticon('')
But am worried I'm missing something & should just go with the normal "chop down a rangie/disco"
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big_patrol Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Odometer: 2620 Location: Rossendale
1998 Nissan patrol
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject:
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I think it sounds good to and often wonder why they are not more popular I think maybe its the follow like sheep attitude many have with competitions.
Build one get out there compete and maybe you will lead the flock to a new age of trials motors.
__________________________________ Everybody welcome to trials club, visit www.ncortc.com every third sunday of the month |
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Rizla 1 Articulating
Joined: 21 May 2007 Odometer: 656 Location: Berkshire
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:34 am Post subject:
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I think British trials have been without change for many years now doing ten gates follow the leader stuff for ten years now we been trying to convert them to Eurotrial regs and that style - it would create a whole new type of car as gates are wider and far more room in the section allows for bigger cars and differant type of car.
If spider cars came to the UK fella they would clean up
Build the car and try the all new Eurotrial style that the AWDC are starting this year -
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N.R.G97 Off-Road Guru
Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Odometer: 1502 Location: somerset.
1966 Land Rover Hybrid
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:02 am Post subject:
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yeah, theres a couple like that just starting at our club, but theyre still using alot of landrover, shortedend and slightley narrower chassis salisburys with lockers and a v8... now while they do well, and are normaly winning, the could be alot better, theyre no lighter than a series hybrid, if anything heavier, and not that much smaller. the best setup i have seen, in a few instances now, and my dads just built one, is a front wheel drive engine and box, auto sideways mounted in suzuki chassis rails, this is good, however we're still using leaf springs, which since i built my hybrid, which isnt exactly a flex king , seems so backwards. i think something small, possibly indy suspension, however you need to get a system that isnt that delicate and provides enough travel would be the best, then lockers etc....
go for it! wipe the boards! but you will be hated by landrover people!
__________________________________ landrover 2a hybrid
http://www.wellspacedout.co.uk/home
http://www.winch-it.com/index.php
http://www.profendersuspension.com/ |
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Rizla 1 Articulating
Joined: 21 May 2007 Odometer: 656 Location: Berkshire
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject:
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All spiders have the same front drive engines put in sideways - the first was a vw passat engine but now they use the VR6 vw dub
makes a good light compact car
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject:
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been looking at the swedish trials cars be nice to use mogs with a front wheel drive engine and gearbox(some are using volvo t5 engines
have you any links to any build ups
id like to know do they use the autos or alter the linkages for manuals
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
Last edited by minimog on Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject:
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minimog wrote: | been looking at the norwegen trials cars be nice to use mogs with a front wheel drive engine and gearbox(some are using volvo t5 engines
have you any links to any build ups
id like to know do they use the autos or alter the linkages for manuals |
still a bit on the heavy side but nice non the less
http://www.4x4sweden.se/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7...=asc&start=30
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N.R.G97 Off-Road Guru
Joined: 09 Dec 2009 Odometer: 1502 Location: somerset.
1966 Land Rover Hybrid
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject:
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Rizla 1 wrote: | All spiders have the same front drive engines put in sideways - the first was a vw passat engine but now they use the VR6 vw dub
makes a good light compact car |
we used a honda civic 1.6, still pretty rapid, would be cool to see it done with type r, dads is the realy early version of the type r, but twin carbs instead of injection.
im trying to find a prelude to go in my vitara, would be cool on a sj t box, but trying not to spend to much....
__________________________________ landrover 2a hybrid
http://www.wellspacedout.co.uk/home
http://www.winch-it.com/index.php
http://www.profendersuspension.com/ |
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Blue dragon Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Odometer: 180 Location: Midlands UK
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Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject:
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Have a go chap. You won't regret it.
I would suggest a 4 cylinder petrol auto. Choose something fuel injected and all aluminium, readily available etc. The Honda engines are very compact and light. 1600cc is more than enough power.
Next I would use a couple of Suzuki or Toyota axles. You will want locking diffs which will narrow the field abit. Take loads of weight out of the hubs and discs and use motorcycle calipers.
No ladder chassis please ! You want the sump and your backside on a floor plate ... lowest centre of gravity possible. I would fold and bolt an aluminium tub together alternatively tube and panel.
To design the frame, imagine the most elegant frame arround you, pick up points for leading and trailing arms, A frames and spring mounts. Join that lot up with a minimum of tubing and don't put any redundant metal anywhere else. Nothing needs to be symetrical.
Bike battery, 2 litre tank, both near the floor. Minimalist exhaust ... you get the idea. Larger cooling system than the standard car !!
Fiddler brakes essential and I would spoil yourself with hydrostatic steering with double ended ram. Personally I'm not into 4 wheel steering or portal hubs but 33" plus tyres with outer rin bead lockers. Try to us aluminium car wheels.
Air shocks are expensive but worth the money ... long coils as an alternative.
So in summary ... nothing Land Rover sorry.
PM me and come and have a drive of the little crawler if you want to get a feel for things.
Good luck.
__________________________________ Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy |
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baloo Articulating
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Odometer: 942 Location: Redditch
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle buggies/triallers
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jacko-68 wrote: | I’ve been reading the lightweight rockcrawler & little tube buggy thread amongst other articles…The idea seems ideal for this type of buggy:-light weight, low polar moment of inertia, good gearing etc.
Checking the regulations of various clubs this configuration is allowable; even within the ALRC (using freelander engine & gearbox or pre 2002 Rover).
My question is why are there none competing? The only buggies I have found with this set up that have done well in competition are the Scandinavian “Spider” buggies in the Eurotrial. AWDC etc all seem to be Range Rover or Suzuki based, the American buggies are a similar engine-RWD gearbox-transfer box setup whether front or rear engined.
I’m quite liking the idea of a coil sprung 80” with a Freelander KV6…with the IRD the ratios are good even with RR diffs javascript:emoticon('')
But am worried I'm missing something & should just go with the normal "chop down a rangie/disco" |
hi
maybe you dont see many like mine about because it dosent appear to fit the regs very well, it would appear that regs were written when all that exsisted were landrover and suzuki ladder type chassis which is fair enough why would you right regs for some thing that wasent about at the time, but it dose limit or hold back development or inovation in different directions
l have my roll hoops running for and aft they should be sideways according to the blue book also the rule that you should have rearward facing diagonals welded to the chassis will be impossible to overcome
there are vehicles out there using transaxles but they have to look like a conventional trialer to fit the regs and then you start to lose some of the benifits of using a transaxle if you cant be small and light
l see mine as a prototype and will finish it as it is and and then think about biulding another but trying to fit in with the regs, roll hoops side to side , rear facing diagonals with a "bit" of chassis welded on the ends etc
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Blue dragon Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Odometer: 180 Location: Midlands UK
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject:
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The main difference between how frames could be improved versus the current regulations seems to surround the roll cage and frame.
My understanding is the following areas are the discussion points.
1) Tube size
2) Diagonal bracing
3) Full width hoops and symmetry about the centre line
1) Tube sizing. Clearly this is weight and span related and I think the recommended sizes for traditional vehicle-plus-a-cage are sensible. I believe however if the weight can be reduced to 1/2 or even 1/3 of traditional vehicles and the spans are also reduced plus we move more to a frame-is-the-core-of-the-vehicle, then smaller tubes are appropriate. This will help to reduces the Cof G height, making a roll less likely in the first place.
2) Diagonal bracing. Obviously we need need to brace the main hoops to stop them collapsing. In a conventional cage-on-chassis this requires significant diagonals to take the loads betweem wide hoops and two long thin chassis rails. In a space frame, we can take the loads more dirrectly into the hoop legs and dispense with most of the frame rails and diagonals. In my view, small forward bracing either side of your head is more effective tham large rearward diagonals, it also stands to protect your head from the side, like in a dragster.
3) Full width hoops and symmetry about the centre line. For a 2 seater, more conventional vehicles this is clearly required. In a single seater I'm not sure. Putting a strong structure arround your head must be the priority. I have found that the not symmetrical arrangement on my crawler helps it to stop rolling multiple times as it isn't a circle in cross section. Also the short span for the main hoops make them very strong and light weight.
Finally, the spider type schemes where leading and trailing arms /frames are used are very efficient at taking loads into a centralised frame. If the steering is hydrostatic there often isn't the need for panhard mountings and air springs take the loads into completely different loactions than coil or leaf springs.
I sincerely hope the US/Swedish style of construction (with transverse car engies) becomes established here. A complete car engine and box weights about the same as a 4x4 gearbox/transfer case alone.
Is it time to move the game on ?
__________________________________ Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy |
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Rizla 1 Articulating
Joined: 21 May 2007 Odometer: 656 Location: Berkshire
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject:
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[quote="minimog"]been looking at the swedish trials cars be nice to use mogs with a front wheel drive engine and gearbox(some are using volvo t5 engines
have you any links to any build ups
Well minimog the first car is a mate of mine not Swedish but from Norway and it's not a spider but yes T5 volvo - the second is dream spider built in Sweden but bought by russian - the third is not a spider but German built i think ??
but yes there are many of there builds on Pirate.no - under projects
will see if i can find a good link to one and post for you
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Rizla 1 Articulating
Joined: 21 May 2007 Odometer: 656 Location: Berkshire
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micky1 Just got MTs
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Odometer: 353 Location: Bath
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject:
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great ideas here.
Been up on the mendips today watching the awdc and in particular Ken Odoms austin gypsie ( yes!) it's as near to euro spider thingy as i've seen competing and winning!
It runs an austin gypsie chassis of sorts and LR axles i believe. Kens a great guy and always talks when asked. He's been to the euro trials.
I got a set of 404's here doing nothing and a set of 20" wheels and tyres.
wanna do a group build along the lines of ghost?!
__________________________________ TD5 90 csw |
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rockwatt Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Odometer: 1542 Location: North lincs
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject:
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umm volvo t5 chipped to 400bhp and auto box, full indy long travel suspension, fox coilovers + remote res shocks, difflocks, split rim alloys with rock rings and bead locks, alloy seats, alloy tanks, aprox 1000kg what a recipe.
i wonder whos planing somthing like that
lightweight, bin all the heavy drive train that's there just to reduce the gearing.
its about time the regs came out of the stone ages and do away with all the (if it isn't based on a landy then its no good attitude)
__________________________________ Rocklobster gears / refurb cases /rockbuckets/SU manifolds/dual transfer boxes/ sj tcase to jimny cradles and speedo drives/bespoke machining / any thing made to a drawing.
email me for details
Find me on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/RockwattEng |
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jeepmadmike Mud Obsessed
Joined: 08 May 2005 Odometer: 4573 Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject:
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The whole problem with the uk trial seen is the land rover! I keep thinking about building a buggy or coiling a SJ
A tube buggy would be great but I couldn't use it with a local Suzuki club as it needs to be taxed tested and a Suzuki!
But with my local all makes club I could use it, but several of there events are only a few minutes drive alway and it is just easy to just drive it there!
Still like the idea of a buggy build but I'll wait a while yet
__________________________________ Land Rovers are the root of all evil!
Now i have gone and bought a D4!
one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy. |
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Blue dragon Just got MTs
Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Odometer: 180 Location: Midlands UK
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject:
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My latest machine is a Suzuki engine, Suzuki Transfer case and Suzuki diffs, do you think it would pass as a Suzuki ?
On a more serious note: I think this is a fantastic looking beast:
Come on Brits. Who's going to build one ?
__________________________________ Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy |
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jacko-68 Gate Opener
Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Odometer: 2
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject:
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Thanks for all the replies so far.
There's much more enthusiasm for this than I'd ever thought that there would be!
All of the trialling locally is ALRC or road legal. A light tubular frame buggy would be the ideal, but within the regs I think a Rover/freelander engined ALRC could work...
First job though is to learn to drive an RTV trialler properly!!!
...but something along these line will get built.
Again thanks for all the ideas.
Neil.
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micky1 Just got MTs
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Odometer: 353 Location: Bath
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject:
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the ghost buid could easily be made land rover shape. a whitbread style frame on box section sills and then the 1 link front and rear with the airshocks and the side on engine configuration.
LR's were used as they were cheap frills, things move on.Look at the winch mob with there tubular buggies!
__________________________________ TD5 90 csw |
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offroad 68 Winch Assistant
Joined: 14 Mar 2009 Odometer: 82 Location: staffordshire
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject:
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You can take no notice of the blue book and build the roll cage what ever shape you like if you get it through a ROPS test, There does seem to be some confusion over weather it can be tested on a computer like the MSA chief scrutineer tells me or it has to be done real time then it would be scrap but talking to a designer I know who has ROPS tests done often he says it hes to be done real time.
I believe thats how Matt Lee does his comp safari racers.
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject:
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the parts are there ready but just got a few projects to finish first
the main reasons i want to use the mogs is
1 i have them
2 i can run 35's and still have more clearance than normal axled rigs on 37-44" tyres
just been on the threads i did notice they arnt that picky with the quality of the welding
what wheel base do they shoot for because they look a little longer than trials cars over here
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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mudplugga Mud Obsessed
Joined: 23 Oct 2004 Odometer: 2798 Location: Shropshire mostly, and Mid Wales
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:41 am Post subject:
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This thing has been trialling with the Mid Wales Club for about 10 years now, and it's still competitive.
Originally built by Malcolm Whitbread it's got a full tubular space frame chassis, Range Rover axles and steering and the complete drive train from a VW SPAM with an auto gearbox and welded diff.
In the second picture you can see right through the buggy above the front axle, where there's normally an engine. That is mounted very central between the seats ( this thing is a pig to drive unless you're a midget !) Traction, with the weight central, is very good.
But as you can see from the pictures it's very short, I think it's a 72" wheelbase or something?, which has it's good points, but it has flipped backwards on a few climbs.
__________________________________ http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337
"Roof, doors, wheels. It's the way I drive."
Last edited by mudplugga on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Rizla 1 Articulating
Joined: 21 May 2007 Odometer: 656 Location: Berkshire
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:45 am Post subject:
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Firstly - The Spiders can be bought as a frame from Lars in Sweden at the last time i spoke to him about a year ago they were about 1500 quid
Minimog - yes the cars are more 100" or there abouts over there better on the rocks there abit more stable with the portals and 40 + tyres
Ken Odom - Me and he have done many Eurotrials and yes his axles are landy but very well sorted with everything in them that you can buy to make stronger sound old boy
Bring on the new wave of trial cars -
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micky1 Just got MTs
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Odometer: 353 Location: Bath
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject:
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mudplugga wrote: |
This thing has been trialling with the Mid Wales Club for about 10 years now, and it's still competitive.
Originally built by Malcolm Whitbread it's got a full tubular space frame chassis, Range Rover axles and steering and the complete drive train from a VW SPAM with an auto gearbox and welded diff.
In the second picture you can see right through the buggy above the front axle, where there's normally an engine. That is mounted very central between the seats ( this thing is a pig to drive unless you're a midget !) Traction, with the weight central, is very good.
But as you can see from the pictures it's very short, I think it's a 72" wheelbase or something?, which has it's good points, but it has flipped backwards on a few climbs. |
so for starters an 88" version of this bad boy sounds great!
__________________________________ TD5 90 csw |
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject:
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on one site (think its yellow spider) it gives you the drawing of the frame with the cutting list but me being me i want to start from scratch but do it very similar but try to fit in with msa (like putting a a pair of diagonals behind the seats and triangulate it a little more )
i have noticed they have fliped the front mog housing is this to get the rotation right or do they use a rear third to get the diff on the correct side i supose il work all that out when i decide what engine/box to use
and after owning 67" of portal unimog i think 90-100" wheel base would be a good starting point
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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micky1 Just got MTs
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Odometer: 353 Location: Bath
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject:
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i'd want to be competitive in trialing so 90" would be the longest i'd want to go. And i'd use toy / lr axles as widths a problem through the narrow bits. for a full on spider i'd go 100"+, mog axles on 40's with an auto vr6 engine set up!
__________________________________ TD5 90 csw |
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Rizla 1 Articulating
Joined: 21 May 2007 Odometer: 656 Location: Berkshire
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:04 am Post subject:
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Not a great deal of point building spiders here with the 42" tyres etc as we don't really have the rocks for them - but a smaller one would be real good -
I built this one 10 years or more ago and with lockers and a 70" wheelbase has won everything i think in the AWDC
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:58 am Post subject:
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we have some very good stone quarrys its just that most are still being worked and would make a very good alternative to the winch sled comps
and would be far cheeper than forking out 6k+ on winch's
in fact the more i watch and find out the more i see it as a sport for me
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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big_patrol Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Odometer: 2620 Location: Rossendale
1998 Nissan patrol
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject:
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Once my motor is finished I am hoping to run some new style events, we have the terrain and even the right sites, the vehicles are advancing in this country all the time.
My plan is to run some kind of mini series and the formats I like are the tough truck ausie style event and the euro trial style.
With the likes of Kirton and other massive venues providing great scenes for thes types of events both from spectator and entrants point of view.
My worry is that because im not some big name in the off road world my events may not attract the people and cars they need to work. Its no good setting the more extreme terrain to have the more "regular" type trials lads complain im just wrecking vehicles. In reverse I dont wanna set something out that everone just drives through easily. In no way am i saying trials lads are not extreme.
I have been trialing for many years now and know what will stop different cars. Our club has already pushed towards wider gates and using the terrain to stop the vehicles not some cane dodging auto test.
Ill keep planning and see where it gets me.
__________________________________ Everybody welcome to trials club, visit www.ncortc.com every third sunday of the month |
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mrcheese Mud Obsessed
Joined: 14 Oct 2003 Odometer: 6339
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject:
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Hi Rizla 1,
I havent trialled for a while now, but I am sure I have seen that truck at AWDC events in the Hants and Berks area.
I seem to remember it doing very well. There was also an old guy called Ted who drove a Willys Jeep. He used to come top a lot as well.
I must get back into RTVs this year.
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