Transaxle buggies/triallers

[jacko-68]

I’ve been reading the lightweight rockcrawler & little tube buggy thread amongst other articles…The idea seems ideal for this type of buggy:-light weight, low polar moment of inertia, good gearing etc.
Checking the regulations of various clubs this configuration is allowable; even within the ALRC (using freelander engine & gearbox or pre 2002 Rover).
My question is why are there none competing? The only buggies I have found with this set up that have done well in competition are the Scandinavian “Spider” buggies in the Eurotrial. AWDC etc all seem to be Range Rover or Suzuki based, the American buggies are a similar engine-RWD gearbox-transfer box setup whether front or rear engined.
I’m quite liking the idea of a coil sprung 80” with a Freelander KV6…with the IRD the ratios are good even with RR diffs javascript:emoticon('')
But am worried I'm missing something & should just go with the normal "chop down a rangie/disco"

[big_patrol]

I think it sounds good to and often wonder why they are not more popular I think maybe its the follow like sheep attitude many have with competitions.

Build one get out there compete and maybe you will lead the flock to a new age of trials motors.

[Rizla 1]

I think British trials have been without change for many years now doing ten gates follow the leader stuff for ten years now we been trying to convert them to Eurotrial regs and that style - it would create a whole new type of car as gates are wider and far more room in the section allows for bigger cars and differant type of car.

If spider cars came to the UK fella they would clean up

Build the car and try the all new Eurotrial style that the AWDC are starting this year -

[N.R.G97]

yeah, theres a couple like that just starting at our club, but theyre still using alot of landrover, shortedend and slightley narrower chassis salisburys with lockers and a v8... now while they do well, and are normaly winning, the could be alot better, theyre no lighter than a series hybrid, if anything heavier, and not that much smaller. the best setup i have seen, in a few instances now, and my dads just built one, is a front wheel drive engine and box, auto sideways mounted in suzuki chassis rails, this is good, however we're still using leaf springs, which since i built my hybrid, which isnt exactly a flex king , seems so backwards. i think something small, possibly indy suspension, however you need to get a system that isnt that delicate and provides enough travel would be the best, then lockers etc....
go for it! wipe the boards! but you will be hated by landrover people!

[Rizla 1]

All spiders have the same front drive engines put in sideways - the first was a vw passat engine but now they use the VR6 vw dub

makes a good light compact car

[minimog]

been looking at the swedish trials cars be nice to use mogs with a front wheel drive engine and gearbox(some are using volvo t5 engines
have you any links to any build ups
id like to know do they use the autos or alter the linkages for manuals

[baloo]

[N.R.G97]

[Blue dragon]

Have a go chap. You won't regret it.

I would suggest a 4 cylinder petrol auto. Choose something fuel injected and all aluminium, readily available etc. The Honda engines are very compact and light. 1600cc is more than enough power.

Next I would use a couple of Suzuki or Toyota axles. You will want locking diffs which will narrow the field abit. Take loads of weight out of the hubs and discs and use motorcycle calipers.

No ladder chassis please ! You want the sump and your backside on a floor plate ... lowest centre of gravity possible. I would fold and bolt an aluminium tub together alternatively tube and panel.

To design the frame, imagine the most elegant frame arround you, pick up points for leading and trailing arms, A frames and spring mounts. Join that lot up with a minimum of tubing and don't put any redundant metal anywhere else. Nothing needs to be symetrical.

Bike battery, 2 litre tank, both near the floor. Minimalist exhaust ... you get the idea. Larger cooling system than the standard car !!

Fiddler brakes essential and I would spoil yourself with hydrostatic steering with double ended ram. Personally I'm not into 4 wheel steering or portal hubs but 33" plus tyres with outer rin bead lockers. Try to us aluminium car wheels.

Air shocks are expensive but worth the money ... long coils as an alternative.

So in summary ... nothing Land Rover sorry.

PM me and come and have a drive of the little crawler if you want to get a feel for things.

Good luck.

[baloo]

[Blue dragon]

The main difference between how frames could be improved versus the current regulations seems to surround the roll cage and frame.

My understanding is the following areas are the discussion points.

1) Tube size
2) Diagonal bracing
3) Full width hoops and symmetry about the centre line

1) Tube sizing. Clearly this is weight and span related and I think the recommended sizes for traditional vehicle-plus-a-cage are sensible. I believe however if the weight can be reduced to 1/2 or even 1/3 of traditional vehicles and the spans are also reduced plus we move more to a frame-is-the-core-of-the-vehicle, then smaller tubes are appropriate. This will help to reduces the Cof G height, making a roll less likely in the first place.

2) Diagonal bracing. Obviously we need need to brace the main hoops to stop them collapsing. In a conventional cage-on-chassis this requires significant diagonals to take the loads betweem wide hoops and two long thin chassis rails. In a space frame, we can take the loads more dirrectly into the hoop legs and dispense with most of the frame rails and diagonals. In my view, small forward bracing either side of your head is more effective tham large rearward diagonals, it also stands to protect your head from the side, like in a dragster.

3) Full width hoops and symmetry about the centre line. For a 2 seater, more conventional vehicles this is clearly required. In a single seater I'm not sure. Putting a strong structure arround your head must be the priority. I have found that the not symmetrical arrangement on my crawler helps it to stop rolling multiple times as it isn't a circle in cross section. Also the short span for the main hoops make them very strong and light weight.




Finally, the spider type schemes where leading and trailing arms /frames are used are very efficient at taking loads into a centralised frame. If the steering is hydrostatic there often isn't the need for panhard mountings and air springs take the loads into completely different loactions than coil or leaf springs.

I sincerely hope the US/Swedish style of construction (with transverse car engies) becomes established here. A complete car engine and box weights about the same as a 4x4 gearbox/transfer case alone.

Is it time to move the game on ?

[Rizla 1]

[quote="minimog"]been looking at the swedish trials cars be nice to use mogs with a front wheel drive engine and gearbox(some are using volvo t5 engines
have you any links to any build ups


Well minimog the first car is a mate of mine not Swedish but from Norway and it's not a spider but yes T5 volvo - the second is dream spider built in Sweden but bought by russian - the third is not a spider but German built i think ??

but yes there are many of there builds on Pirate.no - under projects

will see if i can find a good link to one and post for you

[Rizla 1]

This is Ghost - one of a pair built by the same guy's or team as the first pic

the other is Ghostbuster - if you use google translate you can even read them'


http://pirate4x4.no/forum/showthread.php?t=29115

another but a spider - http://pirate4x4.no/forum/showthread.php?t=19327

[micky1]

great ideas here.

Been up on the mendips today watching the awdc and in particular Ken Odoms austin gypsie ( yes!) it's as near to euro spider thingy as i've seen competing and winning!

It runs an austin gypsie chassis of sorts and LR axles i believe. Kens a great guy and always talks when asked. He's been to the euro trials.

I got a set of 404's here doing nothing and a set of 20" wheels and tyres.

wanna do a group build along the lines of ghost?!

[rockwatt]

umm volvo t5 chipped to 400bhp and auto box, full indy long travel suspension, fox coilovers + remote res shocks, difflocks, split rim alloys with rock rings and bead locks, alloy seats, alloy tanks, aprox 1000kg what a recipe.

i wonder whos planing somthing like that

lightweight, bin all the heavy drive train that's there just to reduce the gearing.

its about time the regs came out of the stone ages and do away with all the (if it isn't based on a landy then its no good attitude)

[jeepmadmike]

The whole problem with the uk trial seen is the land rover! I keep thinking about building a buggy or coiling a SJ

A tube buggy would be great but I couldn't use it with a local Suzuki club as it needs to be taxed tested and a Suzuki!

But with my local all makes club I could use it, but several of there events are only a few minutes drive alway and it is just easy to just drive it there!

Still like the idea of a buggy build but I'll wait a while yet

[Blue dragon]

My latest machine is a Suzuki engine, Suzuki Transfer case and Suzuki diffs, do you think it would pass as a Suzuki ?




On a more serious note: I think this is a fantastic looking beast:



Come on Brits. Who's going to build one ?

[jacko-68]

Thanks for all the replies so far.
There's much more enthusiasm for this than I'd ever thought that there would be!
All of the trialling locally is ALRC or road legal. A light tubular frame buggy would be the ideal, but within the regs I think a Rover/freelander engined ALRC could work...
First job though is to learn to drive an RTV trialler properly!!!
...but something along these line will get built.

Again thanks for all the ideas.

Neil.

[micky1]

the ghost buid could easily be made land rover shape. a whitbread style frame on box section sills and then the 1 link front and rear with the airshocks and the side on engine configuration.

LR's were used as they were cheap frills, things move on.Look at the winch mob with there tubular buggies!

[offroad 68]

You can take no notice of the blue book and build the roll cage what ever shape you like if you get it through a ROPS test, There does seem to be some confusion over weather it can be tested on a computer like the MSA chief scrutineer tells me or it has to be done real time then it would be scrap but talking to a designer I know who has ROPS tests done often he says it hes to be done real time.
I believe thats how Matt Lee does his comp safari racers.

[minimog]

the parts are there ready but just got a few projects to finish first
the main reasons i want to use the mogs is
1 i have them
2 i can run 35's and still have more clearance than normal axled rigs on 37-44" tyres
just been on the threads i did notice they arnt that picky with the quality of the welding
what wheel base do they shoot for because they look a little longer than trials cars over here

[mudplugga]

This thing has been trialling with the Mid Wales Club for about 10 years now, and it's still competitive.

Originally built by Malcolm Whitbread it's got a full tubular space frame chassis, Range Rover axles and steering and the complete drive train from a VW SPAM with an auto gearbox and welded diff.

In the second picture you can see right through the buggy above the front axle, where there's normally an engine. That is mounted very central between the seats ( this thing is a pig to drive unless you're a midget !) Traction, with the weight central, is very good.

But as you can see from the pictures it's very short, I think it's a 72" wheelbase or something?, which has it's good points, but it has flipped backwards on a few climbs.

[Rizla 1]

Firstly - The Spiders can be bought as a frame from Lars in Sweden at the last time i spoke to him about a year ago they were about 1500 quid

Minimog - yes the cars are more 100" or there abouts over there better on the rocks there abit more stable with the portals and 40 + tyres

Ken Odom - Me and he have done many Eurotrials and yes his axles are landy but very well sorted with everything in them that you can buy to make stronger sound old boy

Bring on the new wave of trial cars -

[micky1]

[minimog]

on one site (think its yellow spider) it gives you the drawing of the frame with the cutting list but me being me i want to start from scratch but do it very similar but try to fit in with msa (like putting a a pair of diagonals behind the seats and triangulate it a little more )
i have noticed they have fliped the front mog housing is this to get the rotation right or do they use a rear third to get the diff on the correct side i supose il work all that out when i decide what engine/box to use
and after owning 67" of portal unimog i think 90-100" wheel base would be a good starting point

[micky1]

i'd want to be competitive in trialing so 90" would be the longest i'd want to go. And i'd use toy / lr axles as widths a problem through the narrow bits. for a full on spider i'd go 100"+, mog axles on 40's with an auto vr6 engine set up!

[Rizla 1]

Not a great deal of point building spiders here with the 42" tyres etc as we don't really have the rocks for them - but a smaller one would be real good -

I built this one 10 years or more ago and with lockers and a 70" wheelbase has won everything i think in the AWDC

[minimog]

we have some very good stone quarrys its just that most are still being worked and would make a very good alternative to the winch sled comps
and would be far cheeper than forking out 6k+ on winch's
in fact the more i watch and find out the more i see it as a sport for me

[big_patrol]

Once my motor is finished I am hoping to run some new style events, we have the terrain and even the right sites, the vehicles are advancing in this country all the time.

My plan is to run some kind of mini series and the formats I like are the tough truck ausie style event and the euro trial style.

With the likes of Kirton and other massive venues providing great scenes for thes types of events both from spectator and entrants point of view.

My worry is that because im not some big name in the off road world my events may not attract the people and cars they need to work. Its no good setting the more extreme terrain to have the more "regular" type trials lads complain im just wrecking vehicles. In reverse I dont wanna set something out that everone just drives through easily. In no way am i saying trials lads are not extreme.

I have been trialing for many years now and know what will stop different cars. Our club has already pushed towards wider gates and using the terrain to stop the vehicles not some cane dodging auto test.

Ill keep planning and see where it gets me.

[mrcheese]

Hi Rizla 1,

I havent trialled for a while now, but I am sure I have seen that truck at AWDC events in the Hants and Berks area.

I seem to remember it doing very well. There was also an old guy called Ted who drove a Willys Jeep. He used to come top a lot as well.

I must get back into RTVs this year.