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Little tube buggy
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy4w wrote:
Well Andy your welding will be up to speed when you get time to tackle mine Laughing

Looking good there, I dont know where you come up these ideas, Cool

Andy


lol l am sure my welding will be up to speed soon, l will have your's on the welding bench soon enough

not my idea to use a transverse enguine and box all been done before many times, nothing is ever new in auto motive, it's quite common in the agricultral machinery world, an agri buggy used to come in to where l used to work a few years back and it always intrested me that it used a ford escort 1.8 diesel engine and box mouted the wrong way round, like this one

http://www.friday-ad.co.uk/kings-langley/farmin...51-agri-KPF099519



things have moved on now and lots of machines like that seem to use landrover tdi engines, makes sense with servicing etc on a farm, dont know what gearbox they use though ?

even further back in time l can remember watching a sieres one land rover with a midmounted transverse mini A sieres engine and box trialing, think it was at the late seventies, l think it was rob storrs but its along way back to remember so l might be wrong on that bit, but things just go round in circles time marches on and things become available that make the job easier or better, back in the seventies things wernt so freely avaiable as they are now, diffs ratios for instance or tyres sizes getting a 36" tyre to help sort youre gearing would have been nigh on impossible it was 205 x 16 or 205 x16
well perhaps you could have used a 900 x 16 but l never found them ex army bar grips much good

Andy
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TheJoker
Gate Opener


Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Odometer: 6
Location: Near Oxford



PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baloo wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
Hey baloo, I've now registered so I can keep track of your build. Very impressive so far. Cool


hello Joker
welcome matey you will like it here, glad youve joined up


Thanks! I'm sure I will. Now we need more pics! I've got the popcorn at the ready. Laughing Cool
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheJoker wrote:
baloo wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
Hey baloo, I've now registered so I can keep track of your build. Very impressive so far. Cool


hello Joker
welcome matey you will like it here, glad youve joined up


Thanks! I'm sure I will. Now we need more pics! I've got the popcorn at the ready. Laughing Cool


will post up some more pics when l have dug em out of the computer, its further on than the pics show its sitting on toyota axles now the poor old sj axles never got to turn in anger for reasons that l will go into when we get there Smile
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muddyzook
Just got MTs


Joined: 29 May 2006
Odometer: 393
Location: Dudley



PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy,

Glad to see your building again, your right work is a pain in the backside but it does pay for all the toys Laughing

Keep up the good work and posting

UM

__________________________________
Suzuki Disc Conversions and other mods for SJ, Vitara and Jimny @ muddyzook.co.uk
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Rising sun
Gate Opener


Joined: 01 May 2010
Odometer: 9
Location: West Yorks



PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Crawler buggy Reply with quote

baloo wrote:
Rising sun wrote:
You are truely a master, the mighty Andy Baloo !!!


ha richard Zil no doubt ?

Yes my friend...
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

once l had the axles sitting where l wanted them l started looking at at the front shock top mounts, quite hard really as there is nothing there to fix them too so you have to run some tube out front but its difficult to get it to look neat and be strong,
had several ideas but none l liked very much, tried laying it out with blue tape to try and get an idea





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offroad 68
Winch Assistant


Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Odometer: 82
Location: staffordshire



PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the pictures now Very Happy
Is the blue tape around the ball joint where the A frame will go? Will the driver be able to see over the servo?
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

offroad 68 wrote:
I can see the pictures now Very Happy
Is the blue tape around the ball joint where the A frame will go? Will the driver be able to see over the servo?



hi Lee
yes you can see over/round the brake servo, l have sat in it several times and l think it will be ok, l chose the metro servo because l dident want a horizontle one that would stick forward through the bulk head and get in the way of the front drivers side wheel when on full lock, and l had it off the metro but may yet end up with out servo assistance anyway

yes blue tape was trying to work out where the suspension arms would go, the outer ends l would have liked on the A post since that is where the strength is and it would have been easy but when on full lock the tyres come round and hit them, so inboard they have to go, using tape is easier and quicker than tube for mocking up

how did you resolve not being able to see the pics ?
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offroad 68
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Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Odometer: 82
Location: staffordshire



PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baloo wrote:
offroad 68 wrote:
I can see the pictures now Very Happy
Is the blue tape around the ball joint where the A frame will go? Will the driver be able to see over the servo?





how did you resolve not being able to see the pics ?


I had somehow managed to block your pictures from photobucket Confused probably something to do with getting an e mail every time you put a new picture on.
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok so l started of wanting to use rubber bushes but somewhere along the way l had my head turned by some rather nice looking rose joints Rolling Eyes l actually regrett this and wish l had stuck to my guns and stayed with rubber bushed would have been about £100 cheaper lol, but still lsee this as a prototype and can always switch back to rubber bushes on the real one,

next deviation was axles, l wanted to use sj axles since they are nice and light and fairly cheap, so l started with sj axles and hunted around for some arb difflocks but even second hand they comand a high price Shocked so some £700 later l have a vitara steel front diff with arb fitted and a vitara rear diff with arb plus air lines switches compressor and tyre inflator etc, but that was half my budget gone in one go Shocked
so l made a change of direction here after deciding that difflocks wernt the way to go LSD's were instead, the arb's can go into my commercial vitara and l will fit cheaper lsd's into the tube buggy, but finding suzuki LSD's proved hard and l made the switch to toyota axles instead the Lsd's for these are much easier to find and cheap, bit of a wieght penalty though, the sj front according to the scales in my garage is 75kg the hilux front was 130kg Shocked although l have done a bit of trimming and lightening to get some of it back,



to use the rose joints with the land rover rear radius arms l just cut the thread off and rethrearded the remainder with a fine thread so as the rose joints just screw on, cheap and easy light wieght radius arms



so thats more or less where we are at, all the bends in the 32mm were done with marks home made bender that produces perfect bends up to 90*





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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice looking discs there Andy.
__________________________________
Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes its nice putting rusty old discs in the lathe to make lighter and ending up with new looking ones, l have found some new solid front discs for an early hilux that l will turn down riddle full of holes and mount on the rear axle perhaps along with mgf rear calipers
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Diesel Destroyer
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Odometer: 6921
Location: Under the truck covered in EP90



PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it ready to drive yet Twisted Evil Laughing
__________________________________
Link to my current project build thread

http://muddybuggy.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45&start=80
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TheJoker
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Joined: 18 Jan 2011
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Location: Near Oxford



PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice progress, Andy! Cool
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
chaps

l have been doing some more, well mostly thinking Smile
l can see things l want to change and have been pondering my options, like the front A post l would like to shuffle forward 6" or so,


the space between the wheel and the A post l see as wasted it would be much more usefull inside the buggy for foot room for the accelerator pedal ?

also been offering up wheels and checking clearances which seem to be ok but it shows up the cabin is a bit narrow as all of the wheel sticks out past the tube work




even the narrower steels stick out




but in my defense l did start with sj axles that were narrower than these toyota ones, it would seem that l could add in another 9 or 10" into the width of the buggy and just have half the width of the tyre sticking out,
l was thinking of trying it with range rover axles as well now that would be wide Shocked
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offroad 68
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Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Odometer: 82
Location: staffordshire



PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh the trials of building a vehicle from scratch Smile been there done it, its times like this I wish could use cad, Its only tack welded is it andy?
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

offroad 68 wrote:
Oh the trials of building a vehicle from scratch Smile been there done it, its times like this I wish could use cad, Its only tack welded is it andy?


ah yes cad, well l would if l could but l am to much of an old fart to change my ways and learn now, its chewing gum and string for me still,
yes its only tacked but if l change the sides to make them 6" longer then none of the front will fit anymore so l might as well just start again Rolling Eyes
will ponder this some more
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andy4w
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Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Odometer: 75
Location: Manchester UK



PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked , No dont start again, take time to chill and think it through Andy Wink

Shame you cant lose a 1' of your legs it would be nearly finished Laughing

Andy
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aniesigh
Articulating


Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Odometer: 795
Location: north devon


1991 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

those Fedima's look far too big you need to sell me them Laughing

regarding the A pillar, can you not live with it as it is? presumably you built the cabin big enough for your legs anyway so extra pedal room could also be seen as wasted space? but extra weight as it will be a bigger area to enclose (although marginal) , and if you make the cockpit wider i am thinking you would then need to run harder springs / higher pressure if using air shocks as the affect of the driver / passengers weight against the shocks will be amplified?

plus we cant wait to see it finished as it is let alone the extended finish date if you start again! Laughing

__________________________________
1990 Suzuki Samurai 1.9TDI (sold)
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=53747

new truck build thread:
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?p=595221#595221
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unimogler
Winch Assistant


Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Odometer: 93




PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, looking at the last photo,taken from the front it looks like the frame could be a fair bit wider and still not stick out wider than the wheels . using you bits of string and a couple of bits of wriggleys finest could you work out if the seats could fit either side off the engine ie about 1 foot further foward if the whole thing was as wide as the wheel track . hope this query makes sense , i'm going to do a bit to my little buggy , like start again ! rangy axles a realy very heavy so i think i will follow your lead with jap axles
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aniesigh wrote:
those Fedima's look far too big you need to sell me them Laughing

regarding the A pillar, can you not live with it as it is? presumably you built the cabin big enough for your legs anyway so extra pedal room could also be seen as wasted space? but extra weight as it will be a bigger area to enclose (although marginal) , and if you make the cockpit wider i am thinking you would then need to run harder springs / higher pressure if using air shocks as the affect of the driver / passengers weight against the shocks will be amplified?

plus we cant wait to see it finished as it is let alone the extended finish date if you start again! Laughing


yes they are far to big and more importantly far too heavy be like bolting an anvil on each corner Shocked think l am going to use the alloys l picked up the other day and fit my 33" aligators
l do fit in but its all a bit tight might just weld an extension on the front of the frame to create an extra bit of foot room Idea
but then again startin over should only set me back a weekend or so
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unimogler wrote:
hi, looking at the last photo,taken from the front it looks like the frame could be a fair bit wider and still not stick out wider than the wheels . using you bits of string and a couple of bits of wriggleys finest could you work out if the seats could fit either side off the engine ie about 1 foot further foward if the whole thing was as wide as the wheel track . hope this query makes sense , i'm going to do a bit to my little buggy , like start again ! rangy axles a realy very heavy so i think i will follow your lead with jap axles


might be a bit of a stretch getting the engine between the seats heres a couple more pics from above, the seats are about 6" apart at the moment they would need to go out some way to get them far enough to clear the engine but to some degree that would depend on how wide your axles are ?





on the subject of axles do you know how wide a rangy axle is wmf to wmf ?
or indeed how heavy a range front axle is complete, these toyota axles are no lightwieghts so if there is not much difference in wieght then the range axles may have potential after all Shocked
l have always dissmissed the range rover axles since they only come with diffs that are 3.54 to 1 which is far to high for a small engine to cope with in a crawler, something around 4.88 or 5.125 would be better given that you aready have a 4 to 1 diff in the gearbox,
so 3.54 would be too high in a rr axle unless we bring the gearing down more and what l was pondering as l was driving around today was run a driveshaft out of the rear facing gearbox out put stright into an sj transfer box mounted in the conventional poition under the drivers seat and then 2 props as usuall to the 2 axles, this would bring the 3.54 diffs into the usefull range for a crawler since we can use low in the sj transfer at a further 2 to 1 reduction, but the advantage that l can see is that it overcomes the one drawback that l can see a crawler with a transverse engine/box has, no high range , usally you would expect to be flat knacker out at around 30 to 40 mph but since the rr axles are so tall geared that when you select high on the sj transfer you might be able to get up to 60 plus Shocked the unused gearbox output that faces forward could be capped to stop crap getting in or used to drive a hydraulic pump for a winch, or maybe straight drive to a tiny capstan that turns all the time ?, whoed of thought it a range rover axle that was some use Shocked Laughing
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aniesigh
Articulating


Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Odometer: 795
Location: north devon


1991 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok so start again it is Laughing , if it means it will be for the better good it will be worth it, i had a similar dilema with my build, carry on as is and always be thinking 'i wish i had' or bite the bullet at an early stage when the problems are alot easier (everythings relative!) to rectify!

Range rover axles will deffinately make those wheels useless Wink Laughing

__________________________________
1990 Suzuki Samurai 1.9TDI (sold)
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=53747

new truck build thread:
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?p=595221#595221
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unimogler
Winch Assistant


Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Odometer: 93




PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheers for photos baloo, looking at it from above and behind shows it would make a fairly wide body to clear the engine. regarding rangy axles i had planed to use series landrover diffs which bolt straight in a rangy case and have a 4.75 ratio.

Last edited by unimogler on Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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clbarclay
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Odometer: 1779
Location: Worcesterhire


1987 Land Rover Range Rover

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

baloo wrote:
on the subject of axles do you know how wide a rangy axle is wmf to wmf ?
or indeed how heavy a range front axle is complete, these toyota axles are no lightwieghts so if there is not much difference in wieght then the range axles may have potential after all Shocked


1486mm tack width on +33mm wheels so 1552mm wheel mounting face to wheel mounting face.

I weighted the axles on my range rover a while ago and came up with 162kg front and 103kg rear. They were "unsprung" weights though (axles loosely mounted to chassis with no springs or dampers) and include about half the weight of the suspension links (over half the weight of the radius arms acting on the axle). Both axles had 6mm diff pans and the front had sleeved track and drag rods. Those weights didn't not include the wheel and tyres.

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and the Lord help them caught helping there selves.
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi andy

As a point of reference the Mk1 version of my little crawler was 3.7:1 centre diff, 4.1 :1 axle diffs and 31" wheels and this was a little too highly geared. The Mk2 was 3.7:1 x 5.1:1 and 33" which now seams a little low geared.

I think you would be ok with the RR gearing as you have a little more torque than me but I would stick with the Toyota axles.

Rather than lengthen the side frames you could deepen the foot wells if there is a little space to do so.

Lets get the axles attached as they are and see where the wheel envelopes end up.

Mark

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unimogler wrote:
cheers for photos baloo, looking at it from above and behind shows it would make a fairly wide body to clear the engine. regarding rangy axles i had planed to use series landrover diffs which bolt straight in a rangy case and have a 4.75 ratio.


hi yes it would work out a bit wide if the engine was directly between the seats,
how about pushing the engine forward a bit like mine or even further as l have 6" in front of the engine before the axle and then running a prop from the gearbox output to an sj transfer under the drivers seat, the 2 to 1 reduction in the transfer box would bring the 3.54 rr diffs into the usefull range of 7 to 1 Smile
you would also get the benifit of a hand brake on the transfer box that would help out with the lack of hand brake on the rr axles

l put a pair of rr axles under a vitara a couple of years back and used sieres diffs 4.7 as you say, first 3 times out it exploded a diff Sad
l seem to remember a quote atrributed to ashcrofts that seires diffs are no where near as strong as rr diffs and l think rr diffs are questionable to start with, but in a light wieght buggy with a delicate foot they might be ok ? worth a try atleast
l might try a set up like that next Rolling Eyes
if using an sj transfer as well as a transverse engine and box you would want the diff in the gerabox to be as tall a s possible instead as low as possible to give the buggy top speed, ie around 3 to 1 so would need to come from a biggish engine with torque that could pull a tall diff 2.8 vr6 SPAM engine and box springs to mind Shocked
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clbarclay wrote:
baloo wrote:
on the subject of axles do you know how wide a rangy axle is wmf to wmf ?
or indeed how heavy a range front axle is complete, these toyota axles are no lightwieghts so if there is not much difference in wieght then the range axles may have potential after all Shocked


1486mm tack width on +33mm wheels so 1552mm wheel mounting face to wheel mounting face.

I weighted the axles on my range rover a while ago and came up with 162kg front and 103kg rear. They were "unsprung" weights though (axles loosely mounted to chassis with no springs or dampers) and include about half the weight of the suspension links (over half the weight of the radius arms acting on the axle). Both axles had 6mm diff pans and the front had sleeved track and drag rods. Those weights didn't not include the wheel and tyres.



hi thanks for that, l have just quickly put a tape across the hilux front axle in the buggy, its about 1500mm wmf to wmf so its only about 2" narrower than a range rover which suprises me as l thought the range would be wider
162 kg is wieghty over twice what an sj axle wieghs but if you are going to have have some extra wieght underneath you is the best place to put it, might keep you the right way up on a side slope longer Smile
l am intrested in the range rover axles as at one point l was thinking of biuld teh buggy frame to accept completly standard range front and back axles and suspension l would have thought the standard axle travel would have been enough to make the buggy quite capable off road
h'mm might come back to this idea later Rolling Eyes
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clbarclay
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 22 Oct 2006
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Location: Worcesterhire


1987 Land Rover Range Rover

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More weight may keep it up right at very low speeds, but too much unsprung weight will cause problems with higher speed handling for those times when you need that bit of momentum to make it. The lower the sprung weight, the potentially higher the detrimental effects of unsprung weight.

I expect the weight of a standard front axle on its own would be more like the hilux, but I don't have a complete standard axle to weight.

__________________________________
The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves.
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 942
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well l have done a bit more but its going pear shaped at the moment, it getting to big the wheel base has worked out at 96" was aiming for 86" so l dont know how that managed to grow, might have to shorten the land rover radius arms by 5" each end which means the front wont have any spare foot space after all Rolling Eyes ho hum if only l could do it all on cad first

whats your thougts on cooling ? l can use the standard metro rad and fan but its tiny and in a crawler there wont be any cooling from road speed blowing across the rad l have a couple of range rover 3.9 rads left over from things that l have broken up and was toying with the idea of using one of these,
way over size l would think, l can use just the one fan and wire the second sepertaly for hot day or what ever, is there such a thing as too much water in the system ?

bit of wieght penalty though must wiegh ten times what the metro one wieghs
Shocked








the dog has already booked his seat for the first test lol

clearly the rear rad wants reversing but with the fans on the back and l was experimenting with a front mounted one but it blocks vision too much
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