| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jack samurai
Gate Opener
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Odometer: 21
|
 Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: recovery truck with trialer
|
 |
|
hi, is it legal to drive a recovery truck with a load and a trailer with a load.
im looking at a ford to transport an sj on the body and my brothers sj on the trailer/vice verse
both are fairly standard and wont weigh more than a ton each, trailer i would guess is about 700
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
normalbloke
Articulating
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Odometer: 633
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
That depends what the recovery truck is plated to carry and tow.
How long is a piece of string?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul_c
Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009
Odometer: 1378
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| Also, what do you mean by "recovery truck". I know it sounds an obvious question, but are you simply talking about the type/body of the truck, or the fact that its registered as a recovery truck with its MoT and/or other exemptions, etc etc
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jack samurai
Gate Opener
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Odometer: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
well i havnt actually bought it yet, but a 91-00 transit van with beavertail body.
by the way, i have the b+e licence
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scut44
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
'Breakdown recovery'
& 'Recovery' makes a difference if thats the taxation class.
Then there is the drivers licence class as well as the 'Recovery' vehicle
weights etc.
Thats just a small part of the piece of string.
Looking forward to this thread!
Learn something new every month. 
george
.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jack samurai
Gate Opener
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Odometer: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| well officially i wont be doing any recoveries (maybe the odd cash job but no accident recoveries) although i could if it was benefitial/didnt require another test
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Biffo
Just got MTs
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Odometer: 214
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:12 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| jack samurai wrote: | | well officially i wont be doing any recoveries (maybe the odd cash job but no accident recoveries) although i could if it was benefitial/didnt require another test |
A) If you are doing any sort of recovery for paying customers, then I'm reasonably sure that you'll come under tacho regs and all that that entails.
Also if you're towing a trailer with another vehicle on it, that will bring you into tacho regs (******see below for chapter & verse*****)
B) You'll need to know the gross vehicle mass of the recovery vehicle, then add it all up. ie; recovery vehicle, + one on the back, + trailer + one on the trailer. then see where you come.
My money says that you'll be VERY close to the limits if not over them.
check out http://www.ford.co.uk/Commercialvehicles/TransitChassisCab/Wheelbaseandgrossvehiclemass for GVM of Ford transits.
It is a minefield I'm afraid, and VOSA inspectors will love to pull you for checks & donations if you're overstepping anything.
***** Tacho details ****
Tachograph and the Recovery Industry
Tachograph and the Recovery Industry The regulations apply to recovery and goods vehicles. E C Regulation 3820/85 Sect.11 Art4 a) Light goods vehicles (this includes vans, pick-ups and 4X4) of not more than 3.5 tonnes gross plated weight are exempt from EU tachograph regulations regarding fitment and use. b) When light goods vehicles of not more than 3.5 tonnes gross plated weight are coupled to a goods carrying trailer or towing implement (so that the combined gross weights exceed 3.5 tonnes) then it will come within the scope of the EU tachograph regulations, and a DOT calibrated tachograph must be fitted and used when the trailer is drawn and EU driving rules must be followed. Vehicles over 3.5 tonnes: a) Vehicles used for the carriage of goods, where the maximum permissible weight of the vehicle or vehicle and trailer or semi-trailer exceeds 3.5 tonnes, are required to have a tachograph fitted and in working order b) Under Council regulation E C 3820/85 Article 4, there are a lot of exemptions from the tachograph regulations. Item 10 of that list covers specialised breakdown vehicles. A 'specialised breakdown vehicle' within the meaning of Article 4 (10) means a vehicle whose construction, fitments and other permanent characteristics are such that it will be used mainly for recovering vehicles that have recently been involved in an accident or have broken down for another reason. In the case of Hamilton v. Whirelock, it was ruled that such a vehicle will benefit from the exemption whatever use is actually made of it by its owner Domestic driver hours rules Where a driver is exempt from EC Rules (Tachograph), domestic driving rules must be applied and written records of hours of work on a weekly record sheet must be kept. a) A driver must not drive more than ten hours in one day the daily limit applies to time spent behind the wheel, actually driving. b) A driver must not be on duty more than eleven hours on any working day c) Where a driver does not drive more than four hours in each day of the week; he is exempt from the daily duty limit. Exemption from keeping records The drivers of the following are exempt from keeping written records: a) Drivers of goods vehicles which do not require an operator’s licence. b) Drivers of goods vehicles keeping within 50 kilometres of base and driving a maximum of four hours a day Summary Light goods vehicle under 3.5 tonnes towing a trailer - a tachograph is required. Recovery vehicle must abide by domestic driving hours but is exempted from having a tachograph and keeping written records. Recovery vehicles working under operator licensing are exempted from having a tachograph, but must abide by domestic driving hours and keep written records. NOTE: where a tachograph is used in a recovery vehicle to record mileage, it is the owner's responsibility to see that it is working correctly by having it checked. Driving Licences and the Recovery Industry The information below deals with how driving licences affect the recovery operator. I will not cover all of the regulations, but will cover only the licences that are required in the industry to drive recovery vehicles. Grandfather rights Those drivers who held a full car driving licence which was valid before 1st January 1997 retained the right to drive small vehicles with large trailers, category B + E goods vehicles from 3500kg to 7500kg MAM (MAM = Maximum Authorised Mass) with trailers up to a combined weight of 8250kg, category CI and Cl + E (8.25 tonnes). So for holders of a full car driving licence valid before 1st January 1997, new categories will be B + E and C + E restricted to 8.25 tonnes. With HGVs, there are two types of licences: one is for the motor vehicle (C) and one for the trailer (E). Full HGV (1, 2 or 3), that was valid before the 1st January 1997, are entitled to the new category C. Full HGV 1 that was valid before the 1st January 97 receives C + E with no restriction on the E. Full HGV 2 that was valid before 1st January 97 receives C + E with a restriction on the E licence to draw-bar combinations. Loss of rights Holders of a provisional licence for category C, which were valid prior to January 1st 1997, were able to continue to drive vehicles in category C + E which their licence authorises as provisional licence holders. They will be unable to take a test on such combinations after January 1st 1997 and will have to first take a category C test before moving up to a C + E test in line with staging testing introduced on that date. Driving licence categories (Post 1st January 97) CATEGORY B (Minimum Age 17) Motor vehicles not exceeding 3500kg MAM and not exceeding eight passenger seats (+ driver) towing a trailer not exceeding 750kg MAM (425kg in total) or trailer exceeding 750kg MAM if the combination weight does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the trailer MAM does not exceed the unladen weight of the motor vehicle. Exemption: Towing a broken down or damaged vehicle from a position where it is likely to represent a road safety hazard or cause an obstruction to other road users. But only so far as is reasonably necessary so as to remove the hazard or obstruction. Holders of a full licence before 1st January 1997 retain the entitlement to B + E, C 1 C l + E (8.25tonnes). CATEGORY B + E Category B + trailers exceeding 750 kg MAM. New drivers must hold a category B licence and take a separate test to get category E. CATEGORY C 1 (Minimum Age 21 and with restrictions Age 1 Motor vehicles 3500kg to 7500kg with trailer not exceeding 750kg MAM Limited to 7500kg total MAM if under 21) New drivers must hold a category B licence, take a separate test and meet higher medical conditions. CATEGORY C l + E Category C l plus trailer exceeding 750kg MAM provided that the maximum weight of the combination does not exceed 12000kg (under 21 years limited to 7500kg) and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the motor vehicle. New drivers must hold a category C l licence and take a further test. Holders of a licence valid prior to 1st January 1997 limited to C l + E (8.25 tonnes) unless a new test is taken. CATEGORY C (Minimum age 21 years, 18 if on an LGV training scheme) Motor vehicle exceeding 3500kg M.A.M. plus trailers not exceeding 750kg MAM. All drivers have to take a separate test and meet higher medical condition. CATEGORY C + E Category C plus trailer exceeding 750kg MAM. All new drivers must hold a full category C licence, take a further test, and meet higher medical conditions. NOTE: Locomotive is a mechanically propelled vehicle which is not constructed itself to carry a load and the unladen weight exceeds 7370Kg. A Locomotive may not draw more than three trailers. A broken-down articulated vehicle is classed as one trailer when being drawn broken down, but only if it is unladen; so a laden articulated counts as two trailers.
PS. I've not read it through myself, you need to be a Philadelphia lawyer to understand it!
Last edited by Biffo on Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jack samurai
Gate Opener
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Odometer: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| im guessing Up to 5,000 kg gross train mass (GTM) is vehicle and trailer
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clbarclay
Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Odometer: 1779
Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Aside from any abnormal classifications and requirements, the vehicle should still have a gross vehicle mass (GVM) and a gross train mass (GTM). Asking the vendor what maximum loads are stated on the chassis plate.
Trying to dig up info on older models isn't easy, though going by the info on the current models from Fords wedsite for a comparison, even the shortest wheelbase chassis cab can carry a 1400kg payload (you will need to allow for the weight of a load bed though) with a GVM of 3000kg and a 5000kg GTM, so it should be able to carry that payload while towing a further 1300kg on a 700kg trailer. The Payload, GVM and GTM increase with wheelbase.
EDIT: Biffo got there first
One thing to be careful of is some of the long wheelbase transists can have a GVM exceeding 3500kg and you would then need a category C licence to drive.
An alternaive would be to just get a suitable vehicle capable of towing a long enough trailer for 2 SJs. Trailers with beds longer than 18' though arn't too common thought and will be a lot more awkward to manoeuvre. You would need a 22' trailer bed as well to have neither of the SJ body overhanging.
__________________________________
The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clbarclay
Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Odometer: 1779
Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| jack samurai wrote: | | im guessing Up to 5,000 kg gross train mass (GTM) is vehicle and trailer |
Yes
__________________________________
The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
jack samurai
Gate Opener
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Odometer: 21
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| that was the main thing that put me off one big trailer. trying to do a U turn in the road with 22ft on the back, plus, it wouldnt be very nice to drive with it i cant imagine
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clbarclay
Off-Road Guru
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Odometer: 1779
Location: Worcesterhire
1987 Land Rover Range Rover
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I'm not sure I fancy having to do a U turn with even a 14' trailer to be honest, though the through of having to pull onto round abouts with an extra 6' to get out of the way of the next car wouldn't be fun.
A friend had very long trailer, I guess must have been about 20' or 22' to carry a pair of Ford Pops and aside form the manoeuvring it towed as well as any trailer when correctly loaded and all the brakes set up right.
__________________________________
The Lord helps them as helps them selves
and the Lord help them caught helping there selves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYTHING
Just got MTs
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Odometer: 130
Location: Swindon
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:36 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
A common myth is that a vehicle registered as a recovery truck is MOT exempt so people can buy one and use it to transport racecars etc...
A recovery truck can only be used for recovery nothing else.....and only within a certain radious of the operating base, I am told that any deviation is a no no...I E If a driver stopped for fags that would be illegal..however stopping for fuel and buying fags at the same time would be OK.
I have an LDV "recovery" for sale in the classifieds, with tow bar..but to be honest I dont see you getting two SJ's a truck and trailer within 3500KG's (over 3500KGs you need a tacho probably?)
Grey area of the law again, as it is your own goods and not for hire and reward, you should not need a tacho...however the letter of the law says "ANY vehicle with a train weight (MTW) or gross vehicle mass (GVM) exceeding 3500KG needs to have a tachograph fitted and in use
A lot of people with race cars, big boats, big carravans etc etc are running over 3500KG and not having a problem..it should be a fine..a warning but nothing more (no points) so long as everything else is legal.
Good Luck
MYTHING
__________________________________
classic Range Rover 3.5 with lift and lots of mods and needs to be used more. Called THING as my Daughter said "youre not taking me to school in that thing DAD" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hooli
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Odometer: 2217
Location: Doncaster
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I seem to recall you can change the tax class to PLG if it's only for private use & therefore it doesn't need a tacho.
__________________________________
Proud Member Of The DCJC! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MYTHING
Just got MTs
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Odometer: 130
Location: Swindon
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:49 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
You can change taxation class to PLG you also have to have on the sides of the truck "not for hire and reward" but it still leaves you in the grey area I mentioned
LOL
MYTHING
__________________________________
classic Range Rover 3.5 with lift and lots of mods and needs to be used more. Called THING as my Daughter said "youre not taking me to school in that thing DAD" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cynic-al
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6062
Location: scunthorpe
1989 Suzuki SJ
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:26 am Post subject:
|
|
|
If it is not being used commercially, or is being used commercially but only the transport the goods related to your work not doing any form of transport or delivery for reward you do not need a tacho. Even if the vehicle has a tacho fitted you do not need to put a card / disk in. You also do not need CPC if it is private.
If its GVW is 3500kg + trailer you need class B+E, if its 3500kg to 7500kg + trailer you need C1+E. In either case the trailer cannot be more than 3500kg or whatever the vehicle is rated to tow, whicever is the lower. If you have B+E and you take C1 you do not automatically get C1+E, you would have to do this as a seperate test. If you are going to do C1 you might as well do C as its the same test. Then C+E as this will give you B+E and C1+E automatically and if you ever do D, D+E too.
Confused
No idea about recovery status and tax / MOT exempt
__________________________________
I know enough to be dangerous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nathaniel
Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
The most and transit can tow is 3000kgs.
Most are plated to a lot less...
Unless you are being paid to move the vehicles you DON'T need to use a Tachograph.
You have your B+E so you are fine to tow a trailer behind the 3500kg transit.
If you are NOT towing a trailer behind your 3500kg transit you are free to do whatever you want without a Tacho, hire/reward/recovery etc etc.
Be aware that your payload on a beavertail twin wheel transit is most likely 1200-1400kgs.
You can very easily overload a trannie.
__________________________________
Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul_humphreys
Off-Road Guru
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Odometer: 1272
Location: Oswestry Shropshire
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
If it is regestered as a recovery truck then it will have to have 6 weekly checks and go to VOSA every 6 months. But you will not have to MOT it.
If it is private use, they as long as you have the right licence and insurance, stay within the weight limit of the transit you will be ok.
Paul
__________________________________
LC 80 series 1993. 285/75/16s Cooper SSTs, OME 850s on the front with 25mm packer, 868s on the rear. 4.88 diffs. Winch bumper with 12000lb winch.
http://www.crag-uk.org
http://www.4x4responsewales.org/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
paul_humphreys
Off-Road Guru
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Odometer: 1272
Location: Oswestry Shropshire
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Just to ad, if you do regester it as a recovery truck and use it for hire and reward, you do not have to use a taco within 100KM of base. You only need to put ont in when you know you are going to go out of the 100km mark.
Paul
__________________________________
LC 80 series 1993. 285/75/16s Cooper SSTs, OME 850s on the front with 25mm packer, 868s on the rear. 4.88 diffs. Winch bumper with 12000lb winch.
http://www.crag-uk.org
http://www.4x4responsewales.org/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scut44
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Or in the UK you could run it on LPG without another fuel source 'for gain or reward'
within all the weight & licence rules & not require a Tachograph.
As quite a few recovery firms that do the whole trip without relay are now doing.
george
.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
jack samurai
Gate Opener
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Odometer: 21
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
| Nathaniel wrote: | The most and transit can tow is 3000kgs.
Most are plated to a lot less...
Unless you are being paid to move the vehicles you DON'T need to use a Tachograph.
You have your B+E so you are fine to tow a trailer behind the 3500kg transit.
If you are NOT towing a trailer behind your 3500kg transit you are free to do whatever you want without a Tacho, hire/reward/recovery etc etc.
Be aware that your payload on a beavertail twin wheel transit is most likely 1200-1400kgs.
You can very easily overload a trannie. |
thanks for that. it would be an sj so a ton and allow another 200 for me and my gear.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cieranc
Just got MTs
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Odometer: 451
Location: Darlington
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Just gonna chip in here, it's an old thread I know, but there are soo many people under the belief a Recovery vehicle is MoT exempt. They're not.
By law, a 'Recovery vehicle' and a 'Specialised Breakdown Vehicle' have different meanings.
A 'Specialised Breakdown Vehicle is MoT exempt, a Recovery vehicle is NOT MoT exempt.
The difference?
The Goods Vehicle (Plating and Testing) Regs 1988 define a 'Breakdown Vehicle' as:
“break-down vehicle” means a motor vehicle—
(a)
on which is permanently mounted apparatus designed for raising one disabled vehicle partly from the ground and for drawing that vehicle when so raised; and
(b)
which is not equipped to carry any load other than articles required for the operation of, or in connection with, that apparatus or for repairing disabled vehicles;
This describes a spec-lift or underlift/wrecker.
The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 defines a Recovery Vehicle as:
(2)In sub-paragraph (1) “recovery vehicle” means a vehicle which is constructed or permanently adapted primarily for any one or more of the purposes of lifting, towing and transporting a disabled vehicle.
This describes a flatbed/ beavertail/tilt-n-slide/plant wagon.
So Flatbeds or Beavertails are NOT test exempt, Speclifts/Underlifts are.
The confusion comes from the taxation class, both type listed above can be taxed as Recovery, yet one is a recovery vehicle and the other a breakdown vehicle. We're seeing more and more beavertails getting tugged by VOSA on the local weighbridge. Be warned!
__________________________________
Nothing more permanent than a temporary repair. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ROG.
Gate Opener
Joined: 06 Mar 2012
Odometer: 14
Location: LEICESTER
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I'll chip in as well....
The plated weights on something like a beavertail go like this
GVW
GTW
Front axle
Rear axle
The towing capacity is not the GTW minus the GVW unless the vehicle is loaded to the max or the manufacturer has listed a max towing limit
The GTW can be distributed between the vehicle and the trailer as the driver sees fit
The driver must not exceed
The vehicle GVW
The trailer MAM
The actual weight which vehicle and trailer weigh - the GTW
If the vehicle plate read
3500
6000
1700
2000
And the trailer plate read a MAM of 3500
Then the set up can be
vehicle 3500 plus trailer 2500
or
vehicle 3000 plus trailer 3000
Just two examples
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
