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LPG / forklift gas
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: LPG / forklift gas Reply with quote

I have an offroad only range rover running petrol LPG. Filling for me isn't too bad as there is an LPG site on the industrial estate i work on, but i still think there is an easier way.

As most of you know petrol / LPG fork trucks are pretty common, the LPG tank is just a refillable bottle like caravan gas. It would be so much easier if i could take a couple of these bottles with me, change them when they run out then get them replaced the next week.

Does anyone know if the LPG in the bottle is the same as the LPG you get from the pump? I'm assuming it is!

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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, same gas, its all propane - except road duty isn't paid.

Forklift bottles are liquid pickup, they have a pickup pipe inside them which is angled so the bottle needs to be mounted on its side.

The bottles you use for caravans and barbeques are vapour pickup - but I guess you could utilise these if mounted totally upside down.

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Nat

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jojo
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Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years ago I was involved with testing bottled gas containers and applications where we use to carry out tests to determine what was safe/not safe and it was as surprising as the explosions were impressive just how easy it was to have a "mishap" if the bottle was used incorrectly. While I can't quote the exact technical details I can say that it could be extremely dangerous to use a bottle in any way it was not designed to be used. The simple answer would be to use a fork lift type arrangement and bottles.

Under no circumstances use a bottle upside down or in any way it was not intended. If you want to see road side bombs join the Army and go to Afganistan, don't take your own to pay and play sites.

J
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obviously i would just a fork lift bottle Smile

Just wondered if it would work. You would think the fork lift bottles were self explanitary with the arrow on the bottom for 'this way down' but the people at work still get it wrong Rolling Eyes

No road duty? Even better Cool

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jojo
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Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of using a fork lift bottle (shame you can't use it on road) as there could be a number of advantages over a conventional set up. Let us know how you get on.


J
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

got some other jobs to do first but will update as i learn stuff Smile
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simmo490
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was the head engineer for the largest fork lift truck company in the world south west region I am now the area team leader,

if you need any info let me know, all forklifts don't run on the same propane mix so beware but rare for the odd ones

if you need any couplings for forklift type bottles let me know I have a stash
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my new best friend Smile

Re gas we run toyotas at work, will try and find the exact grade off the paperwork tomorrow.

After looking at the forklift at work (from memory, i didn't write it down) the bottles are 40 litres and about 25bar.

The tank on the rangie is 100 litres and 50 bar, but i think there is a pressure regulator that drops it to 25 bar so i think all i need to do is swap the tank for a bottle fitting.

Can you see any problems with this?

The figures taken above are off the bottle / tank so i don't know if thats typical working or cylinder limit.

Fittings would be really useful, i don't expect a freebie but would be greatful if you could point me in the direction of a supplier.

It came with a full tank so could take me a while to burn that off. First outing this weekend so will see if there are any other problems with the car before i start modifying.

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simmo490
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pressure should not matter too much, engines on fork trucks are exactly the same as a car engine and have the same setup as a normal LPG with the tank a vaporiser and a mixer/carb rather than injectors

The fitting should be an industry standard which is a big knurled brass fitting with about 3 threads, take a photo of it, I will pull a couple of fittings out today and bang them in a jiffy

do you have any ultrasonic sensors in the setup for a gauge,,
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Chris Ennis
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Joined: 05 Oct 2004
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Location: rossendale lancs


1992 Range Rover 3.9 Vogue SE

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i may of missed something here but is bottled gas not more expensive, we had a gas forklift and the bottles were £26 inc vat, and i'm sure they were'nt huge botlles, i'll check when i get to work how big they were, lpg from the pump is 46p to 49p a litre around here and as far as i'm aware the goverment hasn't put tax on it yet although they have been threatening to for the past 10 years

as i say i've propably missed something or we were getting ripped of with our gas

chris
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep, big brass fitting with 3 threads.

Not looked up cost of gas yet, obviosuly you pay a deposit on the bottle then refills. If they are 40 litres and 50p per litre then anything more than £20 per refill is more expensive. Don't know the facts about duty, but it would make me happy if i thought i was getting out of some, like running an offroad only diesel on red Smile Laughing

The main plus for me is i don't have to get the car to the fuel station to fill it. There is an LPG station a few miles from where i live but its tight with a trailer and the LPG pump is often broken. I can just take a couple of bottles and swap them when they run out. Theres a gas place on the industrial estate i work on so i can just pop down at dinner.

No gauge but there are some cut off wires in little box on the tank - no idea if thats a gauge ?

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simmo490
Just got MTs


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget you cannot fill a forklift bottle with a normal pump mate,

Did you want a coupling??
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would do an exchange on the forklift bottle. ie when they run out take them down to the gas suppliers and swap for a full one.

Would love a connector Smile

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simmo490
Just got MTs


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pm me your address mate and will bang one in a jiffy bag

dave
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Nathaniel
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if there is an adaptor that allows you to fill a forklift bottle with the LPG pump at a garage?

I know you can buy portable cylinders for your caravan that you can fill at a garage...

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can buy home kits to fill / empty car LPG tanks. You get some sort of pump with 2 hoses on it.

If you only wanted to half fill your tank you could just connect 2 bottles together.

The car already has a filler on it which goes to the tank, i'm sure you could stick a non return valve and use that to fill the bottle. Don't think the bottles have no return valves built in?

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moggs
Just got MTs


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Odometer: 227
Location: kendal cumbria


2007 Mercedes-Benz s404.1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: lpg stuff Reply with quote

hiya, just a ditto for you
lpg from a pump is presurised into the car tanks, these pumps are set at a pressure to equalise with the car tanks and switch of automaticly when tanks are full, this is to avoid over pressure of the tanks.
yes i must admit filling bottles at an lpg station is easy, but it is also illeegle as bottles can be easily be over filled.
Gas bottle for caravans and forklifts ect are filled by weight and are designed that way to prevent over filling. they leave space for expasion of the gas in event of rise in temperature and have a safety blow off valve built into the valve.
I know of lpg installers who have a lpg transfer pump to put gas into new systems to test for running of vehicle,but you can never fill correctly though,
You would be better of just sticking to lpg at the pumps and paying the price for safety reasons alone.
sounds mad i know,
I have a unimog 404 running on twin 120 ltr tanks sat on the load bay, i only ever fill up from propper pumps and never from bottles.
IRONIC I KNOW SEING AS I WORK FOR CALOR GAS,
up to you though in the end,
ITS YOUR LIFE AND YOUR VEHICLE, WITH LPG ON BOARD ITS THEN A MOBILE BOMB,
the risk is yours but please let us know where you off road so i can avoid anyone runnig on forklift or any other fitment of bottle not design for vehicle use
I LIKE MY LIFE AND MY KIDS
moggs

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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather drive around with an LPG tank in the back than a petrol tank in the back.

At least an LPG tank is made of proper metal and is likely to survive most crashes...

Moggs - I thought a vehicle LPG tank was prvented from overfilling by the float sensor inside the multivalve unit and not by pressure?


I read a post on a forum once of a guy running his LPG car off the gas from his propane central heating tank - he'd had his own pump installed.

Worked out at about 13ppl!

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Nat

If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
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simmo490
Just got MTs


Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Odometer: 460




PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes fork truck bottles are filled by weight!! the norm tank sender is ultrasonic or waight.

if you can get forklift tanks cheap, make a tray for one with some straps, put a forklift coupling vehicle side and just swap them out when they need it, i assume through your company you have a rotation of forklift gas tanks.

i will send the coupling tomorrow morning mate, dont want anything, you can just buy me a pint if we are ever at the same pay and play/ meet
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moggs
Just got MTs


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Odometer: 227
Location: kendal cumbria


2007 Mercedes-Benz s404.1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: tank fittings Reply with quote

it is true yes bottles are rotaded in stock control and age,
and yes you can run a vehicle on fork lift bottles when they have been filled properly.
all i am saying is that filling them your self you cannot regulate the amount of gas actualy in the bottle, unless you weigh it as its being filled.
what you must note though is the fitment in a vehicle,
an lpg tank stored inside must have a sealed ventalation pipe to let excess gas excape in the event of the pressure in the cylinder, this gas must be vented outside the vehicle,
whereas using forklift bottles inside a vehicle ??. how would you vent gas to atmosfear in event of leakage ??.
surely any forklift expert would know that forklift bottles are stored outside the cab on forklifts generaly on the back, and not stored an used inside the forklift cab
or am i missing something in life please enlighten me ????

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simmo490
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand whAt you are getting at there??

Tell me what your getting at and I will answer
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simmo490
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I get it, ok where is the pressure relief valve on an LPG system on a fork truck??
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obviously i wouldn't try to fill the bottles myself, the whole point of this was that i don't have to take the car to a filling station, i take the empties off the car, to the gas place and exchange for full ones.

Didn't realise there was a safety release valve as part of the bottle that vented to atmosphere, theres one on the LPG system uner the bonnet, will have to look into that. Figured the bottles were on the outside as they would be a PITA to change if they were in a cab.

I don't think it would be dangerous providing the work was done correctly and bottles were secure.

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moggs
Just got MTs


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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Location: kendal cumbria


2007 Mercedes-Benz s404.1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: me again Reply with quote

hiya just another ditto lol
the pressure relief valve on a forklift bottle is actualy fitted on the bottle itself, these are normaly with somekind of seal of which is designed to blow out if over pressured by either filling or by heat,
worst scinario happens
vehicle rolls over on of road course, easily done if not carefull enough yes ?.
or even goes onto its side. lets just say pipe work gets damage due to off road equipment falling about and hitting pipes being used to connect bottle to vehicle,
bottle inside vehicle can only vent excess pressure into vehicle filling vehicle with flamable gas, one spark and bang goes vehicle,
correct lpg fitment is designed to vent excess gas pressure outside of vehicle to atmosphere,
only way of fitting forktruck style bottles correctly would be to make a box to bolt it into which would have a vent hole in the bottom to let excess gas pressure out and vent to atmosphere,
as long as the bottle is correctly stored and fitted right then there is no problem at all.
either way if using a bottle which has to be fixed then you would be liable for road fund tax as it is then classed as the vehicles fuel,
where as caravans do not fall into such a class
either way its up to the owner,
sorry am gerrin boaring now,
lol
happy off roading and keep it muddy

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simmo490
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am disagreeing untill I look at a bottle on Monday

Yes a fixed forklift bottle does have a pressure relief system built in whch blows off, this is also used for manual filling, this blows off when full has been obtained

our equiptment has a pressure relief valve between the bottle and vaporiser because our LPG equiptment work indoors and in food enviroment they cannot vent to atmos, if the pressure relief valve operates it blows off either straight in to the mixer/carb or vaporiser and is burned by the engine
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as its offroad oly i dont believe i would be breaking any tax rules?!?!

The current tank is in the boot so i'm guessing there is no pressure relief in that? Also the same concern applies to things in the boot damagine a pipe in a roll etc, something i'd have to think about.

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dodewalker
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

see the bit on, 'propane bottle gas' & 'heavy ends'
i have used 'bottled gas for off-road use' with no probs.
www.lpg-kits.com/why.htm

but am happier getting it at a farm next to the site we use. when the vehicle has a proper tank.
used as a fuel in 'grain driers'.
off coarse, its not used on the road, so no probs with no 'road duty'. george
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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Odometer: 17901
Location: North, North Yorkshire


1979 Suzuki LJ

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:
as its offroad only i dont believe i would be breaking any tax rules?!?!



Actually I'm not sure on that one either.

See, Legally you are NOT allowed to use red diesel when you're offroading your diesel 4x4.

Vehicle is being used for leisure and is not allowed to use rebate fuel - yes, fun tax!

I don't know the rules with propane.

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dodewalker
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly ? Doing a land & terrain surveying on behalf of the land owner, by 4x4??

you are right to question this,(red diesel,LPG, rebated fuel)
the rules changed concerning fuel use and leisure use of boats.

The thing with LPG is the lack of ability to test its origins.

What is prohibited (controlled) is the dispenser/adaptor to allow a commercial or home LPG tank, to transfer gas to a vehicle.
george
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6050
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought you would be ok with red offroading if its not a road going car?

Yep, they've changed rules for pleasure boats, you can't run on red anymore. My dad had a boat with 2x 6cyl 4.2 turbo diesels in & 2 full tanks would do him about 60 miles at sea, he was paying 35p per litre for red, white would've made it stupidly expensive.

Out of interest is there a requirement for tanks to be tested periodically as they are pressure vessels? I know the compressors and receivers at work have to be tested, or is that commercial only?

The car ran well this weekend, the gas system had to be adjusted but is ok now, she's also running a little hot, viscous fan doesn't seem to be working, and i have a few other jobs to do but generally happy with it! used less than half a tank of gas too Smile

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