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diesel engine into a 404

 
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Difflock Forum Index -> Mercedes & Unimog
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piggy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Odometer: 189
Location: gt waldingfield suffolk



PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: diesel engine into a 404 Reply with quote

have any of you put a 300 td merc 5 cylinder or 3.3 nissan 6 pot diesel into a 404 and kept the mog bellhousing
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sj,rangerover,90 i have had them all, just fell in love again, its a mog!!
shush dont tell the mog i'm having an affair..... with a spider!!!!
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piggy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
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Location: gt waldingfield suffolk



PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the info dennis.

i already have a diesel in the 404 its an engine from the 1960 merc 190 its about 1.9/ 2.0 liters, i dont think it will have the power to off road 48" tyres, so my main question is the bellhousing, my 190 diesel fits straight to 404 box with a 5mm flat plate, so 404 and 190 have the same bellhousing shape, but you say om 617 has a different bellhousing shape, is it much different?

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shush dont tell the mog i'm having an affair..... with a spider!!!!
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s.frimodt
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Piggy. Well the fact of the matters is that you could easily mount the OM617 using the same method as you have done on the 190diseasel engine. Just take the back-plate, flywheel and clutch assembly from the factory petrol engine, and smack it on the OM617. BUT! If you are going to run a OM617A as it sounds like when you say 300TD. Well the clutch might have a hard time keeping up to the oomph of the TD engine with its 125bhp. But around newyear we fitted a OM617 in my brothers Mog with 88bhp and we have recently completed a month-long trip to Iceland with no worries, on the standard petrol clutch. So its up to you to decide.
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Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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piggy
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Odometer: 189
Location: gt waldingfield suffolk



PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Søren, so the bellhousings are the same shape, can the om617a be detuned or is there a better clutch in the merc range?
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sj,rangerover,90 i have had them all, just fell in love again, its a mog!!
shush dont tell the mog i'm having an affair..... with a spider!!!!
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piggy
Just got MTs


Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Odometer: 189
Location: gt waldingfield suffolk



PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have never driven any other mog, petrol or otherwise, os i have no idea about performance, just that when i drive my mog arround the field i feel it lacks grunt, i dont really need to swap the engine now but when the cab is on and its gutless i will wish i had, as this will be used for rough offroading and mud.

dennis, when you fitted 617 did you always fit a new bellhousing, and what clutch did you use, the doner i guess, or mog, thanks for the help guys.

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shush dont tell the mog i'm having an affair..... with a spider!!!!
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Turnip
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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Location: Gloucestershire



PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piggy - If you are thinking of a non merc conversion, have a look at "Turnips engine conversion" on page 2 of the mog listings - posted for me by DX Media, Its a bit of a write up on what I did using a 2.5 tdi Iveco engine from a Ducato 3.5 van. Im still pretty impressed with this 170,000 mile engine from a £100 scrap van! It really transforms the Mog which sits at 50 mph up hill and down dale - have a read?
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s.frimodt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's the ever returning problem of the lacking power in a Mog. And for a while I was in the belief that if only I had a 406 or 416 the grass would be much greener. But then I tried a 406 that my mate bought, and boy was I disappointed. It was just as gutless as my 404, a tad better but not really anything worth mentioning. I am sure Dennis is right in that a 617A with its turbo and 125bhp will suit the 404 much better that the stock engine or any other petrol engine in the M180/M130 range. The engine I have in mine is an M180 with dual carbs, etc and a 120bhp. But really it dosn't do much good. It has plenty of power if you keep it in the high revs, but that is so annoying when you want to crawl along and not fly through everything. And this "engine characteristic" seems to be the same in every engine I've tried in the Merc range of either diseasels or petrols. Works great in a road car, not so much in an offroader. So I have spent hours and hours looking into what engine would be nice to put in my Mog. And everytime I find one with characteristics I like. Well they're just to big to fit, or just in general impossible to fit because of clearances at both axle, links, pedals or the cab itself. What I would really like to fit is a 200TDI LR. It has a very nice behavior, either that or the RV8, but none of these are possible to squeeze in there. So I am not the judge to say which is the best engine for a 404, but in many ways it seems like the stock M180 or even better the M130 is the best choice, regarding the work involved. Sure the 617 works well but you gain NOTHING but a tad better fuel economy and a more reliable engine. But again I cannot say how the 617A works as I havent tried it, but there is an awful lot of cutting required in the cab, which is the main reason why I did not choose it.
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Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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mike97
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piggy,
The OM 617 can bolted direct to the mog 404 bellhousing, you do have to use the petrol flywheel (re.machined and balanced), clutch and starter, which is not ideal, but many people have done it. You will also have to do quite a bit of cutting on the cab by the gas pedal.
This site has some good pics, I did try translating the text into english but it still did not make much sence!

http://www.doc404.de/Dieselumbau.html

Im fitting a 617 at the moment but using custom adaptor - see the other diesel thread which I will update.

regards Mike
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting observations there Soren, my brother runs Merc diesel cars and Im always a bit dissapointed about the power versus capacity of these motors, perhaps they greatly understressed to allow long life? I would agree that they need revs too!
On your comment about the 200 tdi, I actually bought an ex disco unit and decided it "would have to fit!" but whichever way I put it, the only way to get it in would mean a RHD conversion or serious surgery to the Mog, That is why in the end the Iveco /Fiat unit went in.
Interestingly I have just transplanted my LR 90 with a genuine 200 tdi from a 90, and whilst a great improvement over the 2.5 NA, it is not anywhere near as lively as the 2.5 Iveco, now I know you can do lots to the 200tdi, and the 90 one is lower output than the Disco one, but "out of the box" the Iveco Fiat has loads more low down grunt and is a lot quieter, I think the Iveco is IDI v the 90 DI? The LR only boosts 0.85 bar and the Iveco 1.0 bar - but an interesting comparison of standard units?

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s.frimodt
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Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well thank you for sharing your observations as well mate Wink
Reading what you wrote, made me google a bit, and look what I found on wiki: http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato
There's actually some quite capable engines (on paper atleast) from the fiat range.
The problem is that a lot looks good on paper, whereas real first hand experience often tells a different story.
But as much as I would like to throw an engine like yours into my 404, I simply have no clue how feasible it is, yours does afterall have a much different cab, so maybe it wont be doable for me? My main concern being that I really do not want to chop my cab about as it is in a very good condition. Although I'm slowly getting there anyways as I recently chopped off the toolbox because the 14.00's rubbed on it Rolling Eyes

__________________________________
Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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s.frimodt
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Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOBS the link is in danish, you probably won't understand much Very Happy But the table with numbers is what caught my eye and that is in english Wink
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Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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Turnip
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Odometer: 192
Location: Gloucestershire



PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take your point about the cab, but my cab is tiny, I reckon way smaller than the standard? The great thing about that engine is that because in the Ducato it is transverse, all the manifolds are on the back or left hand side, the only thing on the RHS is the fuel pump and power steering pump, I took the integral vac pump off because I have air. I can take some major distance measurements if you need them? Also the engine mount on a single front mount - like the Mog!
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s.frimodt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds interesting indeed, I would love some some measurements thank you Smile Both width and height from center crankshaft to top of the valvecover (or whatever is highest) These engines should be quite easy to source here in denmark as well, there has been/are a lot of these cars running about.
__________________________________
Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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Turnip
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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Location: Gloucestershire



PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got that the wrong way - the manifolds are on the back or RHS as you sit in the vehicle! I will take some measurements!
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Soren,
I did some rough measurements today - The Iveco 8140.47 engine is approx 500mm tall from centreline of crank, the bottom of the sump is 180mm below the CL of the crank. Now the important bit! CL of crank to furthest point toward the pedals is approx 280mm, I still have standard clutch and brake pedals, in the standard position, the accelerator is not standard. The other side, exhaust, turbo etc is about 200mm. I believe the pedal side can alter depending on which van - Fiat, peugeot, citroen, you use, Mine had a vac pump, power steering, oil cooler, I removed the vac pump and blanked. I have taken some pix which I hope will post, they are to show the relative positions of the engine to chassis/ pedals etc, the full write up was posted by DX Media on page 2 of the forum under "Turnips Engine" The Ducato bell housing makes a really good adaptor!
Wont let me post pics! - I will work on it!

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Turnip
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pics - I hope!
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s.frimodt
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks mate! Applause
Looks doable with a standard cab, will have to look into my engine bay tomorrow with the measuring tape Wink
Re the bellhousing I should easily be able to find an engine with gearbox, so I could just strip that and use the bellhousing. But I posted on Pirate4x4 and they came up with an engine transplant that to me sounds very interesting! a Ford 300 straight 6 petrol. 280nm at 1600rpm!! SWEET. Only problem is, can I find such an engine in Denmark?

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Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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s.frimodt
Just got MTs


Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Went at the Mog with the measure today.
All the numbers sound great, bar the one on the pedal side! I only have about 220mm of clearence to that side, so about 60 short.. But judging from your pics it looks as though the oilpump and filterhousing barely fits under the cab floor, if this is the point farthest from the engine, and it will fit under a standard cab aswell, it should be doable. I hate to bother you too much, but could you do a measure from the top of the chassis to the floor plate at the pedals? then I could check that possibility aswell.
Cheers

__________________________________
Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Problem! May have to wait until the weekend though as I have some work on Friday!
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soren,
here is one in the footwell before I put the floor in - you can see where stuff is a bit better?

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Turnip
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soren,
On my set up there is approx 50mm from chassis top to the floor, from the end of the clutch / brake pivot bolt (which I think is the standard position as per your Mog) to the side of the standard Iveco oil filter is also 50mm. The pivot bolt centre viewed from the end of the bolt (looking from the sump) is 10mm behind the end of the filter can.
The cast rings around the clutch and brake pedal (which I assume close the pedal hole on a standard Mog?) the bottom edge of this ring is level with my floor.
Hope this helps? If you want more pics / info - just shout!

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