View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
|
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: Towing Info
|
|
|
There seem to be a lot of the same questions being asked about towing being asked recently so I thought Id post up the links to the relevant information.
DFT Requirements for road legal trailers
DVLA towing information for vehcles up to 3.5tonnes
Camping and Caravan club B+E training and information
link to DfT's FAQs on towing & trailers
VOSA's quick guide to towing small trailers
Driving licence requirements
DfT's notes on A-Frames & Towing Dollies
46 Page pdf from the NTTA on safe & legal towing
For those that dont have the time to read all the info then a few points in brief:
1) Towing a vehicle over 750kgs with an unbraked A-frame IS illegal.
2) If you only have a category B licence then you may tow a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example the unladen weight on the chassis plat of my vehicle is 2600kg so that means the maximum I can tow on a category B licence is 900kgs.
3) Trailers above 3500kg MAM must have coupled brakes to the towing vehicle either vacuum or air operated from the vehicles brakes. All trailers 3500kg MAM or below can have overrun brakes, if below 750kg MAM no brakes are required. If your trailer is fitted with brakes they must work on all wheels and have an auto-reversing function.
If anyone else can come up with any other bits of info please post them here.
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart)
Last edited by YotaDave on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:18 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
|
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
ADMIN/MODS:
Would it be possible to get this stickied so the information is always easy to find?
Also as there seem to be so many questions and threads about towing and trailers it might be an idea for a new forum section?
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
|
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:04 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Hi YotaD,
The lighter the trailer is in relation to the towcar, the better ...... does that mean safer? Safe is good!
But in your case, you cannot tow a 1000kg trailer, unless you get a lighter towcar, which by implication is less safe.
Is that what they call an anomoly?
I suggest that what should be allowed is for you to be able to drive a 3500kg car, and allowed to tow a trailer up to the unladen weight of that car, subject to the manufactures limit. Limits should be writ LARGE on both tow bar and draw bar, legible without kneeling.
What WAS sancrosanct about 3500kg .... probably too late to change it now. Why didn't they choose 2000kg, or 5000kg, or even 3673kg. Could there have ben vested interests ..... see the Transit story.
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ralph Guest
|
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
trailers above 3500kg must have coupled brakes to the towing vehicle either vacuum or air operated from the vehicles brakes, all 3500kg or below trailers can have overrun brakes or if below 750kg max no brakes at al.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:09 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Hi Ralph,
Yeah, I know what the law says, but why did the law makers pick on 3500kg? Similarly, why did they pick on 3500kg as the limit of a Group B driving licence?
At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.
Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:18 am Post subject:
|
|
|
YotaDave wrote: | ADMIN/MODS:
Would it be possible to get this stickied so the information is always easy to find?
Also as there seem to be so many questions and threads about towing and trailers it might be an idea for a new forum section? |
Great idea
Lets get a definitive set of info together then sticky it
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ralph Guest
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:48 am Post subject:
|
|
|
w3526602 wrote: | Hi Ralph,
Yeah, I know what the law says, but why did the law makers pick on 3500kg? Similarly, why did they pick on 3500kg as the limit of a Group B driving licence?
At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.
Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?
602 |
probably because 3500kg trailers were the limit for most non-hgv vehicles, so in previous years any body could tow to that limit prior to the 'B' class car licence.
Last edited by ralph on Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
RichardD wrote: | Great idea
Lets get a definitive set of info together then sticky it |
Ok, Ive added about trailer brakes to the first post.
Any one have anything else? Useful links or information?
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
andyw666 Gate Opener
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Odometer: 37 Location: westbury, wiltshire
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:34 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Hi, Im going to be the pain here and say I still struggle with this "2) If you only have a category B licence then you may tow a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM." bit.
basically I own a 110 van, its 1850kg unladen, mam of 3050kg. Obviously the unladen weight would mean a reasonably large trailer, however assuming the land rover was empty even then the combination of the 2 would instantly be 3700kg, Would this fall into the 4.25 tonnes category? As theres still the ability of 1200kg to go in the land rover which in total would equal 4900kg.
obviously im never going to get close to that weight in the land rover but as its done alot on MAM not actual these days is what confuses me.
sure I cant be the only one which this bit confuses
Cheers
edit: on second thoughts is it a simple as 4250kg minus 3050kg = 1200kg which being the mam of the trailer?
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
w3526602 Difflock Royalty
Joined: 10 Jun 2002 Odometer: 10758 Location: Glynneath, South Wales
|
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:32 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Hi Andy,
There is no trade off.
If your towcar has a MGW of 3500kg, you can tow a 750kg trailer.
But if your towcar has a MGW of 3000kg, you can still only tow a 750kg trailer. NOT 1250kg.
Strangely, the way the driving licence regulations are worded, if your towcar has an unladen weight of 550kg (Citroen 2CV) you can still tow 750kg ..... I THINK ..... provided the car manufacturer hasn't said you can't, which probably means you need a very old 2CV.
But note that unless your tow car weighs more than 1500kg UNLADEN, your 750kg trailer will need brakes, and pro-rata down the scale. That means that my S1 Land Rover cannot tow an 750kg unbraked trailer, but my Disco can.
Does it make any difference to the 2CVs towing limit if you pour moulten lead into the chassis rails?
602
__________________________________ Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
norseman45 Just got MTs
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Odometer: 185 Location: Essex - UK
|
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:30 am Post subject:
|
|
|
w3526602 wrote: |
At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.
Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?
602 |
Later changed to 2 tons.
Yes, I am old enough to remember the 20 plates on the rear mudguard!
__________________________________ I like things just to do what it says on the tin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nivapilot Guest
|
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:17 am Post subject:
|
|
|
norseman45 wrote: | w3526602 wrote: |
At one time, a motor car was defined as any vehicles with four or more wheels, with an unladen weight of not more than 3 tons.
Can anybody remember when trucks had to display a 20MPH label?
602 |
Later changed to 2 tons.
Yes, I am old enough to remember the 20 plates on the rear mudguard! |
Phhhhffff! I remember when they had to display "caution steam brakes"on the back!!..
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
trailer guy Articulating
Joined: 19 Feb 2009 Odometer: 787 Location: Hampshire
1994 Land Rover 110
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
|
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Thanks trailer guy, I was wondering when you would turn up!
Added those links to the first post.
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John yota Articulating
Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Odometer: 548 Location: Aberdeenshire
1998 Suzuki Jimny
|
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Just giving a bump to this thread as a lot of towing questions are being asked
__________________________________ Carefully picking my way through the mine field that is my mind |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RichardD Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Odometer: 22856 Location: State of Confusion
|
Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
sticky'd
__________________________________ Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cornish redneck Mud Obsessed
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 Odometer: 3904 Location: bodmin
1997 Mitsubishi Shogun
|
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:05 am Post subject:
|
|
|
i think im right in saying (please tell me if im wrong) but, if you dont have 'grandfather' rights and want to tow over the new 3.5t limit this can be achieved by the 'young' driver being accompanied by a 'grandfather' passenger with 'L' plates on the vehicle.
im only 28 with no towing rights driving lwb shogun so i cant really tow any sort of trailer unless its very very small!!
something else that im sure ive read somewhere, again if im wrong please correct me, if you use a 2wd vehicle you can tow 1.5 times the towing vehicles weight but if you use a 4wd vehicle it goes up to 2 times the towing vehicles weight.
can anyone verify the last statement please.
__________________________________ Founder of the Difflock Ginger Goatee Club! (which seems to be lost somewhere)
Member of the DCJC |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
|
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:36 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
cornish redneck wrote: | i think im right in saying (please tell me if im wrong) but, if you dont have 'grandfather' rights and want to tow over the new 3.5t limit this can be achieved by the 'young' driver being accompanied by a 'grandfather' passenger with 'L' plates on the vehicle.
im only 28 with no towing rights driving lwb shogun so i cant really tow any sort of trailer unless its very very small!!
something else that im sure ive read somewhere, again if im wrong please correct me, if you use a 2wd vehicle you can tow 1.5 times the towing vehicles weight but if you use a 4wd vehicle it goes up to 2 times the towing vehicles weight.
can anyone verify the last statement please. |
You cannot carry any sort of load in the vehicle or trailer whilst on L plates.
The bit about differing weights for 4wd and 2wd is not anywhere in the regs.
The ONLY regulation defining what the vehicle can tow is the towing limits set by the manufacturer.
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
|
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Also we seem to get asked "What can my vehicle tow" or I'm looking for a Towcar (What's available?" quite a lot.
I'll start a list if you want and edit any contributions into a single post,
Landrover Discovery 1989-present - 3500kg Braked
Landrover Defender 1982 - present - 3500kg braked
Landrover Series III 109 2000kgs braked
Daihatsu Fourtrak LWB and SWB - 3500kgs Braked
Santana PS10/ Iveco Massif - 3500kgs Braked
Nissan Patrol - 3500kgs Braked
Isuzu Trooper LWB - 3500kgs Braked
VW Toureg (all) - 3500kgs braked
Kia Sorento -2009 3500kg braked
Kia Sorento Manual 2009 onwards 2500kg braked
Kia Sorento Auto 2009 onwards 2000kgs braked
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out
Last edited by Nathaniel on Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cornish redneck Mud Obsessed
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 Odometer: 3904 Location: bodmin
1997 Mitsubishi Shogun
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:35 am Post subject:
|
|
|
nat i dont want to contradict what you are saying but i found this post on h&h, http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=156580 not sure if its the weight thing or if its livestock/horses.
__________________________________ Founder of the Difflock Ginger Goatee Club! (which seems to be lost somewhere)
Member of the DCJC |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
scut44 Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:11 am Post subject:
|
|
|
www.helpingldrivers.com/law/supervisor.htm
www.johnexley.co.uk/jedtagri.htm
You can do anything you like if the police dont catch you.
But dont believe everything you read on forums.
Find a DVLA site that tells you that a learner driver in the UK with a provisional licence can tow a trailer/horse box, loaded or not,
& put the link up please.
*THE PERSON PROVIDING SUPERVISION WILL REQUIRE THE CORRECT LICENCE & INSURANCE FOR THE VEHICLE/OUTFIT BEING DRIVEN BY THE DRIVER BEING SUPERVISED INCASE THEY NEED TO TAKE OVER THE DRIVING.*
Then find a insurance company that will provide cover for a 'full licence' holding private driver (not a professional HGV instructor)
to sit next to a learner driver that is towing a trailer while under instruction.
I am sure there are enough idiots that would sit next to a learner driver that is towing a trailer carrying a horse/horses.
They would deserve the fine/points on their licence or the ban that i hope they would recieve. IMHO.
Its the 'Full licence holder' providing the instruction to know the law,
even more than the inexperienced driver they are supervising. IMHO.
george
.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
cornish redneck Mud Obsessed
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 Odometer: 3904 Location: bodmin
1997 Mitsubishi Shogun
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
thats fair shout mate, like i say im not 100% on towing laws, just going by info that i have found and been told.
i just find it very frustrating that myself a youngish driver cant legally tow even though i have many years experience on the farm and towing illegally (which i try not too any more) but then old boy joe bloggs that has just retired buys a huge caravan and sets off with no experience atall, who is the bigger danger on the road? rant over!
last time i got pulled over for towing i asked the copper if he knew exactly how i stood on towing, his reply was 'its a very grey area' but did explain the 3.5t rule, DONT EXCEED IT.
__________________________________ Founder of the Difflock Ginger Goatee Club! (which seems to be lost somewhere)
Member of the DCJC |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
j44gtw wrote: | Find a DVLA site that tells you that a learner driver in the UK with a provisional licence can tow a trailer/horse box, loaded or not,
& put the link up please.
*THE PERSON PROVIDING SUPERVISION WILL REQUIRE THE CORRECT LICENCE & INSURANCE FOR THE VEHICLE/OUTFIT BEING DRIVEN BY THE DRIVER BEING SUPERVISED INCASE THEY NEED TO TAKE OVER THE DRIVING.*
|
George, we're not talking about PROVISIONAL license holders towing - That IS illegal.
We're talking about a full license holder who does NOT have B+E Entitlement driving a LOADED combination whilst supervised and on L plates.
You cannot carry any load in vehicle or trailer whilst towing on L plates - Even if your Horse weighs less than 750kgs (That thread was the biggest load of horse droppings I've ever read!)
Quote: | ast time i got pulled over for towing i asked the copper if he knew exactly how i stood on towing, his reply was 'its a very grey area' |
GREY AREA!!!!????
Towing laws are about as clear as you can get.
Still - I encountered a copper that did NOT know about seatbelt exemptions as outlined in the highway code.
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scut44 Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Re. Police & seat belt exemption.
I had a seat belt exemption letter for my work with the council.
I was sitting having a break outside a shop & beside a parked police car.
As i went to manouvered out, a traffic inspector walked infront of me & blocked my way.
He came to the window & said "Get your seatbelts on."
I told him we had seatbelt exemption.
He said "that will not stop you going through the window,
GET YOUR BELTS ON.
george
.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
j44gtw wrote: | Re. Police & seat belt exemption.
I had a seat belt exemption letter for my work with the council.
I was sitting having a break outside a shop & beside a parked police car.
As i went to manouvered out, a traffic inspector walked infront of me & blocked my way.
He came to the window & said "Get your seatbelts on."
I told him we had seatbelt exemption.
He said "that will not stop you going through the window,
GET YOUR BELTS ON.
george
. |
What's your exemption for?
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
DENT Just got MTs
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Odometer: 264 Location: dorking
1964 Land Rover Series IIa
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
DENT wrote: | the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible |
??????
From the Discovery owner's handbook off RAVE:
Quote: | Maximum permissible towed weights V8i & Tdi On- road Off- road
Unbraked trailers 750 kg (1653 lb) .................................................. 500 kg (1102 lb)
Trailers with overrun brakes 3500 kg (7716 lb) ................................ 1000 kg (2204 lb)
4 wheel trailers with coupled brakes * 4000 kg (8818 lb) ................. 1000 kg (2204 lb) |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
scut44 Guest
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:57 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Paul C, it was for 'Housebound Library Delivery' when traveling short distances in town.
Home visits & customers coming out to the vehicle.
george
.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
DENT Just got MTs
Joined: 10 Apr 2009 Odometer: 264 Location: dorking
1964 Land Rover Series IIa
|
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
paul_c wrote: | DENT wrote: | the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible |
??????
From the Discovery owner's handbook off RAVE:
Quote: | Maximum permissible towed weights V8i & Tdi On- road Off- road
Unbraked trailers 750 kg (1653 lb) .................................................. 500 kg (1102 lb)
Trailers with overrun brakes 3500 kg (7716 lb) ................................ 1000 kg (2204 lb)
4 wheel trailers with coupled brakes * 4000 kg (8818 lb) ................. 1000 kg (2204 lb) |
|
thats what i mean but the 2000 is as i was lookling at series vehicles
how do you achieve coupled brakes on a landy as its not air like trucks
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
|
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
DENT wrote: | paul_c wrote: | DENT wrote: | the the landy hand book it says 2000 kgs braked
400kgs close coupled brakes but as a landy has hydraulic drakes how would you comply with that or is it impossible |
??????
From the Discovery owner's handbook off RAVE:
Quote: | Maximum permissible towed weights V8i & Tdi On- road Off- road
Unbraked trailers 750 kg (1653 lb) .................................................. 500 kg (1102 lb)
Trailers with overrun brakes 3500 kg (7716 lb) ................................ 1000 kg (2204 lb)
4 wheel trailers with coupled brakes * 4000 kg (8818 lb) ................. 1000 kg (2204 lb) |
|
thats what i mean but the 2000 is as i was lookling at series vehicles
how do you achieve coupled brakes on a landy as its not air like trucks |
There are systems out there, I've seen it done.
Can't remeber how it worked tho.
Not forgetting you need it on a Ring hitch as Towballs are max 3500kgs...
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|