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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: Re-engine-eering
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I've a horrific installation of a 3.5 6cly ford york engine in my 404, just thing every bad thing and it's been done down to a body lift with chicken wire underneath to fit the truck rad in place.
I've grown up around Isuzu's and GM's (re-badged) so planning on sticking a Trooper 2.8 4cly TDi lump in with a front mounted intercooler. Looking at the front of the truck, the exhaust and turbo are on the passenger side, a slim line inlet it on the drivers, and there's a hydraulic clutch. The engine should be putting out about 110 bhp and give or take 200 foot pound.
Touch wood it's going to be a straigh forward conversion, keeping the trooper rad and air box (£10 for a full set of filters). Due to the avaliability of troopers and diesel frontera's (the frontera has a better engine - more power and slightly more economical) I think that this might be a worth while conversion, so I'll keep the board posted.
If the 2.8 drops in OK, the the 3.1Tdi from the mk2 trooper is the same block with a different top end.
Oh it's a propper diesel engine which only needs a wire to the stop soliniod to run.
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TigerMog Winch Assistant
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Odometer: 88 Location: Marchwood
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject:
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I was so excited this week when an old Merc 280S Sedan was on ebay for a song. It had the M130 2.8L engine and twin carb set up....of course someone jumped in at the last moment and sent the price through the roof....ah well still chugging along with 82 hp
__________________________________ cheers,
Dan
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming "@#$%, what a ride!" |
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s.frimodt Just got MTs
Joined: 08 Sep 2009 Odometer: 170
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:46 am Post subject:
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Dxmedia: Following with interest and looking forward to see the progress. The Isuzu is quite a nice engine and also easy to find here in Denmark.
Tigermog: Too bad, that would have been a sweet engine for a Mog, no doubt
__________________________________ Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.
'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades |
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lemansred Gate Opener
Joined: 22 Sep 2009 Odometer: 13 Location: australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: m130
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We have done the M130 2.8L engine swap picked the hole car up for $800.00 aust about 400 pound the minute i poped the bonnet i could see the M130 had been reconditioned the M130 is a 7 main bearing sweet engine easy swap as well also took the carbies off and fitted two 65 mm throuttle bodies and gas ring injection on top work a treat
__________________________________ There are 2 types of people in the World
Those who own a UNIMOG and
Those who want to own a UNIMOG
some of us own 2 unimogs
The Comp MOG and The Yard MOG |
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:57 am Post subject:
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Know a bloke who's going to be selling a merc m160 (is it?) 3.0 5cly NA diesel which is currently in a 404.
As soon as I get conformation I'll pop some details up.
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject:
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Really worth considering the Iveco 2.5tdi ive put in my 404, fits really well, 120 bhp, bags of torque and Im considering putting the 12.5 x 20 oversized wheels back on because it takes most road hills in 6th gear now if you have the boost on!
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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grease monkey Gate Opener
Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Odometer: 29 Location: salisbury
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject:
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hi i am a newbe i have a 59 404 and looking to put a diesel into it
what year and model did your engine come from
many thanks neil
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mike97 Guest
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject:
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Hi Neil,
Welcome to the forum, there is quite a lot of info on diesel conversions for the 404 if you do a search in the old threads.
I'm in the process of fitting a diesel from a merc G wagon to my 404, not too far from your neck of the woods either.
cheers Mike
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:50 am Post subject:
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Hi Neil, Take a look at the post called 404 diesel and you will see some pictures there? The engine I used is an Iveco fitted to a Fiat Ducato 3.5 tonne van. I believe it is the same in the Citroen Master and Peugeat Boxer. I think it is important to try and get the 2.5 tdi and get the engine EVERYTHING ELSE too!
I used the gearbox / clutch housing as an adaptor and it went in really well. I have used all the hoses brackets the lot.
I have a full photographic record step by step but unfortunatly not the skills to post it. If you want to go that way I think I can make a CD or come and look - you are not a million miles away?
Just remember though - my bodywork is very non standard - but probably tighter fit than standard? Im in Dursley Glos GL11.
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject:
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Hey Turnip,
If you know how to zip the pics or email them to me, I'll happily post them all up for you.
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:55 am Post subject:
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Thanks for the offer DX - but Im a bit of a Turnip when it come to the PC skills! I have saved them all on a remote hard drive and there are quite a lot! They are also "full size" I have worked out how to re size to post one or two but it all seems to crash if I load too many?
Im happy to have a crack and mail them to you (where?) but you will have to give me a Dullards set of instruction how to!
Or I think I can put them on a CD and post them........I think!!
Phil.
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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land mawe Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Odometer: 40 Location: KENYA
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: engine swap
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hi there
am working on my first build...have a 404 chassis and transmission and am trying to fit a TOYOTA 2F engine and bits onto it.
Any tips on how to mate the 404 gearbox to the toyota clutch and engine??? the main problem is that very long shaft...the bellhouse etc can be modified, I need guidance on the shaft and getting the two to work.
thanks!
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject:
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you could have the input shaft machined to the toy dimensions and then it will fit but its probs easyer to machine the toy flywheel to accept the mog clutch and have a new bellhousing made up (not going into why you carnt mod the mog belhousing)
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject:
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minimog wrote: | not going into why you carnt mod the mog belhousing |
Err can you, that's what I'm about to try and do
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject:
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first thing is DO NOT CUT IT unless you can use exsisting mounts or holes to connect to because if your thinking your good enough to weld it
your not its made out of a alloy that just wont weld even with special rods recomended by exsperts so unless you could come up with a bolt on soloution you just be waisting £100 quids of welding rods and days trying if you want to know more contact "dave moggs" and he will go through his ordeal with the dam things
ive seen quite a few conversions done by making a bolt on plate onto the gear box then making a complete belhousing out of plate steel ok its not prity but it seems to work
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject:
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Ah that's ok, I was going to make an adapter plate to sit between the mog housing and the engine. Problem with using the isuzu bell housing is that hump over the cross member. With the mog it's built in.
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land mawe Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Odometer: 40 Location: KENYA
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:49 am Post subject:
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Thanks Minimog.... trying to put the engine up on the chassis today, see how the sump lines up with the front diff. then make a decision on what end to machine up....happy days.
Will not cut anything as per your advice!
meanwhile the input shaft - does it come off quite easily? anything to watch for there???
am i technical enough for this build???? i will be AFTER i guess.....
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minimog Off-Road Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Odometer: 1700
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject:
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its not the easyist thing to get out but if you got a manual it will help you loads (if you strip it down from the front of the gearbox you almost get it out but i think you have to strip the hole shaft from the rear if that makes any sence to you if you want a practice i have a gear box you could play with(but i think your a little far away and watch it they are VERY HEAVY)
__________________________________ WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT" |
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject:
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I tried to "slip" the input shaft out of a spare gearbox from the engine end and as minimog says - it looks like it will - but it wont!!
In order to extract it you have to take half the rear of the box apart as well and its quite complicated with special spanners and fancy lock washers.
I mated my shafts together by using the Iveco input shaft and pressing / welding it to a Mog driven clutch plate centre, that way all the gearbox is standard.
The secret for fastening a rogue engine to this box is to use that steel plate that is bolted to the back of a standard Mog engine - you know that fits the box. use the inverted U hole in the middle and turn up a boss to fit in it. The other side of the boss turn a spigot to fit your engine and hey presto! Mine fitted treat - you can spin the input shaft with two fingers. In my experience (the previous) fitted adaptor - any misalignment make the box really noisey and gearchanges hard!
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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land mawe Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Odometer: 40 Location: KENYA
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:55 am Post subject:
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turnip minimog thanks for the advice....much appreciated!
as for the kind offer of messing around with a gearbox....indeed am far away!!!
there is no original engine with the Mog I have...so bellhouse fabbing or adapter will be required.
I looked at "slipping" out the input shaft.....hehehe....turnip you were spot on. No chance of that with my limited knowledge and patience!!! suddenly the 2F engine looks like it will fit on the original shaft somehow - as Minimog advised, with some work done to the flywheel. It seems to sit up quite tall on the chassis and at some angle...lets see when its mounted up. Alignment as you point out turnip is a challenge to avoid the rattle an hum.
2 things please:
"The standard Unimog engines (180 & 130) have two struts attached between the sump and the bellhousing. These are extremely important. If you fit a non-unimog engine (be it Mercedes or otherwise) you will most likely not have an attachement point on the sump for these struts. Such an attachement point MUST be made and it must be very strong. The two struts help to keep the engine and gearbox aligned in a vertical plane, without them, the engine and bellhousing would only be held together by the 6mm (quarter-inch) adapter plate which flexes much more than you may expect"
can you guide me on this?? what struts? where??
second:
there is a crack on the wheel drum, which someone tried to repair and obviously botched the welding. its shabby and dangerous. is it the same material as the bell house (impoossible to weld kind??) or....how can it be repaired. getting another one is near impossible in this part of the world (and my budget)!
cheers!!
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject:
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I found that because I was replacing the original 6 cyl with a shorter4 cyl I had quite a lot of length to play with at the flywheel end.
On my particular Iveco 8140.47 there is a 7" spacer between front of Mog bell housing and new engine bellhousing.
The previous conversion involving a Ford York 4 cyl with the Mog spigot direct into the Ford flywheel was pants because the Ford sump landed right over the axle case and wanted to clout it all the time. Also I have found that mine now grips better with the engine forward.
Only my humble opinion - but ! I would use the front of the engine as a datum (front pulley roughly over that big round cross tube) and make up the length at the flywheel end. It also gets any lumpy cam drive gear away from your feet, which was the biggest problem with any engine I looked at!
If its any comfort for bush engineering - I did all of mine in a field only using a Fergi 35 tractor loader to help!
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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land mawe Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Odometer: 40 Location: KENYA
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:54 am Post subject:
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thanks turnip.
bush engineering it is going to have to be!!
can anyone talk me through the gear selector...it is 6 gears going forward and 2 reverse? am managing 4 and 2....how does big shifter going fwd work? H gives me 4....??not sure if something has jammed in the selector or i am missing something the chassis and tranny have been lying idle for years so it may be rusted up....not sure.
cheers
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:13 am Post subject:
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That's about correct
2 (forward reverse)
and
4 (forward)
It's possible to run through all 6 by hitting the gearstick to the right with the palm of your hand I find. Pulling away in 3rd isn't an issue though?
Reverse will only work in 1 and 2
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject:
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Yeah - getting used to the box is a bit novel! If you have a look at that 8 speed conversion thread it explains it quite well.
Basically with the big stick fully left towards you push forward for 1st and pull back for second - both these gears can be used forward or reverse using the F - N - R lever on the far right.
Now make sure the FNR lever is in Forward and push the big lever (in neutral position) away from you to the right of the vehicle (quite a long way) You should now be able to push forward for 3rd. Dont expect to pull back for 4th until you have selected 3rd - there is an interlock as std.
From 4th go neutral and push away again for 5th and 6th - thats how mine works!
Reverse is painfully slow on the road and there is a myth that if you remove the interlock on the selector plate, you can get all six gears in reverse - I tried it and it is tosh! you only get reverse in 1 and 2 (or 1 - 4) if you go 8 speed! otherwise you can do what you want with FNR and in 3 - 6 it just goes forward! Confused?
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject:
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Took mine for a drive on saturday for the first time over distance.
Came to the conclusion very quickly that it's a 2 speed box once moving. 5th and 6th. No doubt with either a petrol engine or a weight 4th might be needed.
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land mawe Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Odometer: 40 Location: KENYA
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:33 am Post subject:
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confused??? more than ever!!!
so is it 6 or is it 4 going forward??H??or HH?
also turnip have you got any pics of your mountings? where did you fit them? on this 2F enegine the sump is close to the diff
and did you have to convert yours to Right Hand Drive??
ALSO - my brake cylinders are rusted firmly jammed up...i cannot find replacements here.... so now I have a 4.2L straight six petrol engine and no way to stop the MOG!!!!
ideas?? any cylinders come close?? or any home remedies for rust removal/salvage? have been using electrolysis to great effect on other bits...the fear is the aluminium eroding - plus its line of sight so the innards dont get any attention really
cheers!
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dxmedia Mud Obsessed
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 Odometer: 2185
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:11 am Post subject:
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try vk-cars.com for brake parts.
It's a 4 speed box with a low ratio engaged as part of the main shift pattern. So from the point of view of moving the gear lever it's a 6 speed box with reverse being limited to 1 and 2.
Have a read of the 8 speed conversion thread and download the word document. That will explain precisly how the gearbox works.
Basically though as you move from 2 - 3 you disengage low ratio, as you move from 3 - 2 you engage it.
3 4 5 6 are all high ratio gears. 1 2 are low ratio.
What the 8 speed conversion does it fit a second lever to manually engage low ratio so you have
LOW
1 2 3 4
High
5 6 7 8
Although the ratio's are more like
1 2 3 5 4 6 7 8
so you get time to move into N put the box in high then move over to 5 without loosing too much momentum and still have the correct gear to carry on.
(that's all theory though - I've yet to do the conversion myself)
Oh reverse is 1 and 2 only due to an interlock. 10 seconds with a grinder and you can have reverse in every gear (and with an 8 speed conversion that's a lot of gears to be changing backwards)
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land mawe Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Odometer: 40 Location: KENYA
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:32 am Post subject:
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thank you! that helps greatly!!! will read the doc and work it out...
have emailed vk lets see if they can get them out to a friend in the UK to bring down by next week!
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Steveb Gate Opener
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Odometer: 44 Location: Suffolk
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject:
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Hi L-M,
I have some secondhand but good brake drums and also some free moving secondhand wheel cyls that would need honing/ resealing, if they are of interest pm me
Steveb
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject:
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Hey DX - take out that interlock for reverse and you will still have only 2 reverses or 4 if you go 8 speed - believe me Ive done it!
I assume it is because the reversing pinion is only on "low " ratio?
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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