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Rich. Off-Road Guru
Joined: 13 Apr 2009 Odometer: 1165 Location: Newcastle
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: Road Legal HID Headlights
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Im looking for a pair of road legal HID headlight assemblys to fit to the vit, im about to start my tubular front end and am wanting to upgrade to an HID kit whilst im at it for 2 reasons, 1) It allows me to do more with my tube work as the exisitng headlight assemblies are fitted quite well to the existing wings, and i think will look abit crap with a tube front end, so im looking for some replacement round units instead and the second reason is quite obivous, as im looking for a higher light output.
However i have herd that its illigal to fit one of these HID kits into a light fitting designed for a filiment lamp, and that if a car is tested properly at the MOT it should fail for it.
So what road legal, dippable options are there out there? I have found a few of the type im after on ebay, but they are filimant types again.
Cheers
Rich
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ScottieJ Guest
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject:
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would HID lights be a good idea in a 4x4 as they are a lot more expensive to replace if you drown them and they blow? or do they cope with water better than standard bulbs?? even if they are in sealed units water will find its way in on the odd occasion. I would just get some good spots to suppliment the original headlights.
Scott
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slimjim16v Articulating
Joined: 25 Jan 2004 Odometer: 523 Location: London
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject:
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i think as you're fitting the complete headlight unit, you should be OK. they might need to be fitted with remote adjusters though.
__________________________________ Grumpy Old Git (Gay old Devil?)
8V Vitara, XT350, 250bhp integrale |
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LlaniGraham Mud Obsessed
Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Odometer: 2701 Location: Llanidloes
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject:
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The conversion kits are causing problems and certainly I know of several MOT stations that have failed cars with them due to incorrect beam adjusment and pattern.
A full proper light unit should get over that problem, but don't forget that they have to be fitted with washers and remote adjusment. I would have thought in your situation you would be better off using some 5.5" headlights. Cheaper to replace when you WILL break them.
__________________________________ MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales |
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject:
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You can ONLY use HID Headlamps IF
The Light Units have a clear Lense
Headlamp washers are fitted
and the headlights are self levelling to account for the load in the vehicle.
Can you fulfil these criteria?
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject:
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How about LED headlights?
www.ledheadlamps.com
Are they available over here?
Regards,
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dodewalker Guest
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject:
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I am a moany old git, but i just wish every time i am driving that the police would do people with illegal lights.
Lorry drivers that make me stop 'my speeding', because they are all lit up with blue lights.
BMW/AUDI drivers that i slow down for because of their halo lights.
& 'special' people who need 'look at me lights'.
They should get stopped & eye tested, can they not see in the dark like every other driver.
I know i cant see very well after getting blinded by their crapally fitted lights blinding me, or shining in my rear view mirror.
Rant over.
george
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paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject:
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Nathaniel wrote: | You can ONLY use HID Headlamps IF
The Light Units have a clear Lense
Headlamp washers are fitted
and the headlights are self levelling to account for the load in the vehicle.
Can you fulfil these criteria? |
Not sure but I think its worse than that, you'd only legally be able to fit them if the vehicle type were already type approved for them. For example if you had an Audi A4 without them, and transferred all the components from another A4 which had them as standard, no worries. But if you fitted an older car (which never had them) with an aftermarket kit, or cobbled all the bits of another make/model car, they'd be illegal. Something to do with the approval markings for a light unit only being valid if its mounted to the car is was designed for - ie mounted according to the manufacturer's guidelines.
But, its all a bit confusing because it delves deeply into construction and use regulations. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be able to clarify it all?
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Rich. Off-Road Guru
Joined: 13 Apr 2009 Odometer: 1165 Location: Newcastle
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject:
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Im sure from what i read about it that as long as the assembly as designed for an HID lamp, then its fine. Its only assemblies designed for a filiment that become illigal.
What i find strange is that halfrauds and the like will sell you these kits without any warning of the legalities of them.
The LED units look very promising, if there available in the UK?
As for the reason, i simply prefer the higher light output. I can see your point about being dazzled, however this has nothing to do with the technology, simply the setup of the unit. If set up correctly they should have the exact same pattern as a filimant, i.e pointing at the road.
I have 20/20 vision and dont struggle to see at all, however when driving country lanes or offroading at night, i can quite oftn struggle to see, and fitting a million auilary driving lights is not an option for me due to the fact i have no-where to put them. I have 4 roof lights mounted, however they dont assis much when greenlaning, but are very usfull for close, technical and slow offroading.
Rich
Rich
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Roger Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2050 Location: Redditch Worcestershire
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject:
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dodewalker wrote: | I am a moany old git, but i just wish every time i am driving that the police would do people with illegal lights.
Lorry drivers that make me stop 'my speeding', because they are all lit up with blue lights.
BMW/AUDI drivers that i slow down for because of their halo lights.
& 'special' people who need 'look at me lights'.
They should get stopped & eye tested, can they not see in the dark like every other driver.
I know i cant see very well after getting blinded by their crapally fitted lights blinding me, or shining in my rear view mirror.
Rant over.
george |
I know what you mean George.
Would someone care to explain to me why articulated lorries need to be fitted with upwards of a dozen driving lamps and why they can get away with them on a legal basis as the ones above the cab would be illegal to use anyway?
As to the original question, I would also ask why you want to do it? I use Wipac rubber lamps with 7" round headlamp units. Strong, non rotting or rusting and cheap. What more do you want.
Roger
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Rich. Off-Road Guru
Joined: 13 Apr 2009 Odometer: 1165 Location: Newcastle
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject:
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Roger wrote: | why they can get away with them on a legal basis as the ones above the cab would be illegal to use anyway?
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There forwards of the front axel, making them legal.
Roger wrote: |
What more do you want.
Roger |
Somwhere to mount them, the front of a suzuki isnt that wide, so with a winch in the middle it leavs very little mounting options. They carnt go on each side of the winch as they would obscure the headlight beam. I could make up a tube to go over the winch and mount them to either the underside or ontop of this, but i personaly hate this look, besides, they would just get smashed sticking out there.
Thanks for the suggestions so far
Rich
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Terranosaurus Articulating
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Odometer: 949 Location: Bishop Auckland County Durham
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject:
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Roger wrote: | Would someone care to explain to me why articulated lorries need to be fitted with upwards of a dozen driving lamps and why they can get away with them on a legal basis as the ones above the cab would be illegal to use anyway? |
Because despite popular misconception and what a certain national 4x4 mag recently published there is no upper limit for the fitment of "Optional Main Beam Headlamps" and hasn't been since 1989. There used to be an upper limit of 42" or 1066mm however and 24" for foglights but this has since been raised to 1200mm. Details are HERE if you wish to wade through it.
Likewise there's a lot of rubbish about HID - bottom line is the whole lighting set up including the bulb needs to be 'E' or 'BS' for all lights vehicles on first used after 1st April 1986.
After market HID units are not 'E' marked.
Using an E marked OE kit in another light would not be using it in line with the E marking so it would be invalid. you could however graft an entire HID light on provided you mount it as per the original vehicle and also transfer all the leveling gear etc and make sure it works etc.
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Terranosaurus Articulating
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Odometer: 949 Location: Bishop Auckland County Durham
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject:
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Vit Rich wrote: | I have 4 roof lights mounted, however they dont assis much when greenlaning, but are very usefull for close, technical and slow offroading. |
I'm not quite sure I approve of your laning technique or the speed you plainly do it at!
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Rich. Off-Road Guru
Joined: 13 Apr 2009 Odometer: 1165 Location: Newcastle
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject:
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I dont fly through at 50mph if thats what your sugesting.
I simly mean that my rooflights are not very usful for anything more than crawling, due to the bonnet glare. No matter how fast your going if your lights are reflecting back in your eyes your not going to be able to move very fast without every rock or stump not being visable until its too late. However with crawling through a technical section you barly are moving, meaning that its not such an issue.
Rich
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dodewalker Guest
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject:
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Where does all the driving in the dark go on?
Its raining now & theres no moon showing,
But i might get away out shooting tonight if the rain stops.
On a hillside with standard lights, roof spotlight used if required.
I never see any gamekeeper vehicles covered in lights, an extra strong spot & a work light.
& they are out all year in all weathers.
Mountain Rescue vehicles, Coast Guard, all the same.just a couple of long range spots.
Hard core offroaders must live in a different universe from proffesional drivers.
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Terranosaurus Articulating
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Odometer: 949 Location: Bishop Auckland County Durham
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject:
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Vit Rich wrote: | I simly mean that my rooflights are not very usful for anything more than crawling, due to the bonnet glare. No matter how fast your going if your lights are reflecting back in your eyes your not going to be able to move very fast without every rock or stump not being visable until its too late. |
Ok - well why not just mountyour roof lights slightly further back and as low as possible so they cast a shadow over the bonnet - works for lots of other people, or good quality lamps with defined beam patterns. The cibies on my roof work a treat but were only really put there for mac challenge were they proved very useful for spoting clues etc out to the sides.
Another option is good quality and preferably high efficiency bulbs.
Osram, GE and Phillips are the only manufacturers to my knowledge that supply OE - there's a reason for that. I've got Osram Nightbreakers in which are a +90% high efficiency bulb and are great but still only 55/60w so no need to touch your wiring and 'E' marked too unlike most 100w bulbs.
Another mod well worth doing is rewiring your lights so dip stays on with main beam. It does as standard on a lot of modern vehicles but never used to - I've no idea wether a vit would or not.
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Rich. Off-Road Guru
Joined: 13 Apr 2009 Odometer: 1165 Location: Newcastle
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject:
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Yep, there the options iv thought of before, but when iv spent that much time fabbing a roof rack, an old photo but the roofrack hasnt changed;
I have Osrams in at the moment, which did make a huge difference, however in comparison to a mates (illigal) HID kit they look pathetic, hence the reason for the question.
I have looked at doing the dipped beam option, i might give that a go and see what happens.
Rich
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Roger Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2050 Location: Redditch Worcestershire
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject:
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The problem with having the dip and main beam on together is the heat output from the bulb.
With my Wipac 7" units I have 4 headlamps, so 4 main and 4 dip and no problem over extra heat.
The Wipac's are wired so that I can kill the extra dipped beams when in towns. Although the lamps are correctly aimed, about 10% of driver's will flash me if I leave all 4 dipped lights on.
Roger
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normalbloke Articulating
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Odometer: 633
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject:
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dodewalker wrote: | I am a moany old git, but i just wish every time i am driving that the police would do people with illegal lights.
Lorry drivers that make me stop 'my speeding', because they are all lit up with blue lights.
BMW/AUDI drivers that i slow down for because of their halo lights.
& 'special' people who need 'look at me lights'.
They should get stopped & eye tested, can they not see in the dark like every other driver.
I know i cant see very well after getting blinded by their crapally fitted lights blinding me, or shining in my rear view mirror.
Rant over.
george |
"can they not see in the dark like every other driver."
Well,I cannot see in the dark, thats why I have headlights.I'd love to know your secret, as I suspect you are the only human who can.....
Rant also over......
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slimjim16v Articulating
Joined: 25 Jan 2004 Odometer: 523 Location: London
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:12 am Post subject:
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this looks like a minefield.
easiest option is to fit std quality round halogen headlight and some small HID auxillary spots in front of the grille, but even decent 150w halogen spots are blindin innit
or, instead of 2x7" Cibie round headlights, fit 4x5" Cibie round lights, double the power. had this on one of my old cars, was great, even before the brighter legal bulbs were invented.
or, one of those rally style bonnet mounted lamp pods with 4 lights
oh, the Phillips X-treme bulbs came top in a test, put em in my Vit, blindin
__________________________________ Grumpy Old Git (Gay old Devil?)
8V Vitara, XT350, 250bhp integrale |
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dodewalker Guest
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:37 am Post subject:
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Normalbloke,
my point, with the assistance of the headlights allowed, we see in the dark,well enough to drive.
Millions of us. crap lighting, but almost every car coming towards you had similar lights.
'special people' need 'driving light's on, but no dipped lights?
some dont know that their front fog/driving lights put on the rear fog lights.
These are the 'fast' drivers.!!!
Then there are 'special people'. they need to light up the road better than the millions, & it doesnt matter how many other drivers get dazzled.
An early morning rant, before going out driving in the pouring rain.
following drivers with FOG lights on.
george
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aniesigh Articulating
Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Odometer: 795 Location: north devon
1991 Suzuki Samurai
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TheClunk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Odometer: 1159 Location: Chippenham
1997 Vauxhall Frontera
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:03 am Post subject:
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A friend of mine has just fitted HID lights into a '68 series. Only problems he had was converting the kit to positive earth.
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Roger Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2050 Location: Redditch Worcestershire
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:12 am Post subject:
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dodewalker wrote: |
An early morning rant, before going out driving in the pouring rain.
following drivers with FOG lights on.
george |
This comment got me a little worried.
Are you saying that rear fog lamps should only be used in fog? In law, fog is deemed to exist if the visibility is reduced to less than a 1,000 metres. All other conditions being normal.
You say that you are about to drive in pouring rain. This could indicate a high level of spray, especially if you are on a motorway.
Would you not use your rear fogs under these conditions?
Lights are there so that the driver can see what is in front of him and also that he/she can be seen by others.
In a scenario of pouring rain, heavy traffic, motorways and the inevitable tailgater's, I would suggest that rear fogs are perfectly suitable if not mandatory.
Roger
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Terranosaurus Articulating
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Odometer: 949 Location: Bishop Auckland County Durham
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:21 am Post subject:
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Roger wrote: | Are you saying that rear fog lamps should only be used in fog? In law, fog is deemed to exist if the visibility is reduced to less than a 1,000 metres. All other conditions being normal. |
Erm no roger its 100m and it has to be pretty damn foggy/an awful lot of spray etc for you not to be able to see 100m
Highway code (cos it was easiest to find)
Quote: | 226
You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 236).
236
You MUST NOT use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226) as they dazzle other road users and can obscure your brake lights. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves.
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Roger Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2050 Location: Redditch Worcestershire
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:55 am Post subject:
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International definition of fog relates to a visibility thresh-hold of 1 km. The pre-metric definition related to a distance of 1,100 yards.
Your other comment parallel's my own.
Point is, do you agree with them?
Roger
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Terranosaurus Articulating
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Odometer: 949 Location: Bishop Auckland County Durham
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:30 am Post subject:
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The prescense of some legally defined fog itself does not mean that visibility is reduced sufficiently to the legal definition of seriously reduced visibilty at which pointthe use of fog lights would become legal.
Personally and as someone who drives at least part of the time for my job, I find the use of front and rear fog lights hardly ever necessary and most peoples use of them wrong. I am old enough to remember the Don't dazzle adverts on TV which were specifically about not using rear fog lights in rain - they are a hazard in these circumstances and can mask brake lights as they are just as bright.
Personally I do find a set of auxillary lights to be of use on country back roads etc, they are not necessary, but do allow you to safely travel more quickly than you might have, not something all 4x4 owners have to worry about but owners of more modern vehicles with good road manners and some degree of handling and road holding do. However whilst out laning I find they are of dubious little use, the standard light set up being quite sufficient for ambling along at 10mph or so - or less.
The standard fit fog lights on the Mk3 Terrano IIs like mine are next to no use except in real fog, where they do come into their own. Up round Lockerbie in early march they were great in the fog/low cloud at night when everything else just bounced back. I think that is the only occasion I have actually deliberately turned the rear fog light on in the 12 months I have had this one and don't recall ever using them on my previous mount.
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rhinoman Mud Obsessed
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Odometer: 3277 Location: Brinkworth, Wilts
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:00 pm Post subject:
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Roger wrote: | In a scenario of pouring rain, heavy traffic, motorways and the inevitable tailgater's, I would suggest that rear fogs are perfectly suitable if not mandatory.
Roger |
I guess that you don't ride a motorbike. Theres nothing worse than riding sensibly down the motorway and then having some tw*t come past you and blind you.
If I had someone too close I think I'd want them to be able to see my brake lights.
__________________________________ 2000 Vitara 4u2, 3+3 lift, 33s, winch, safari rack, steel front axle and 5:83 R&Ps, LWB brakes
1986 SJ413K Pickup, 1.6 conversion
2006 Jimny JLX+, stock |
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slimjim16v Articulating
Joined: 25 Jan 2004 Odometer: 523 Location: London
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject:
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yes, those IDIOTS who turn their rear fog lights on at the slightest bit of fog *%$"! me off then they leave them on forever i'm really tempted to get out at the lights and turn them off for them with a BFH
don't tell them you can get halogen bulbs for fog lights
__________________________________ Grumpy Old Git (Gay old Devil?)
8V Vitara, XT350, 250bhp integrale |
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paul_c Off-Road Guru
Joined: 17 May 2009 Odometer: 1378
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject:
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I can't see why you'd need any type of lights over & above the standard that a car comes with. Seriously. As soon as you have more lights than other motorists, you kind of stick out like a sore thumb with them on. At best its a distraction, at worst the dazzle is unsafe. If you're on dipped beams no other lights are allowed to light up anyway (AFAIK).
Rear fogs? Another example of ineffective policing. It must be one of the least likely crimes to get done for, you're basically relying on being caught by a traffic cop + its safe for them to stop you + they have nothing better to do at the time (not heading off to an accident, etc). Same goes for middle lane hoggers and tailgating too.
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