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Driving a Unimog on a post 1997 license
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Tom.H
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: Driving a Unimog on a post 1997 license Reply with quote

Hi

I own a 404 Unimog which is basically in its standard condition (Military Carrier).

I am almost 17 and will be taking my driving license in the very near future. I plan to use the vehicle after my test for simple pay and play days.

I am aware that at my age and with a normal (B) license I am only allowed to drive a vehicle which weighs less than 3500kg

As you probably know a standard unladen 404 weighs around 2600kg but it can also carrier 1800kg meaning it has a gross vehicle weight 4400kg


I don't feel I am ever likely to exceed my limit of 3500kg as I will be attempting to run the vehicle as light as possible to and from events

Before I contact the DVLA, I just wondered if anyone has had any experience of driving a Unimog or any other vehicle which is in between the 3500kg boundary with a post 1997 license ??

Also forgot to mention my Unimog is not classed as an agricultural vehicle and goes through an annual mot .... Like a normal car



Cheers
Tom
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Henry.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think you will have to run it on a 7.5 tonner license. And i think you have to be 21 to be able to do that...
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paul_c
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Min age for C1 is 18. (C1 + E, C, or C + E is 21 though).

There's 2 ways to do it legally:

1. Learn to drive a car (B licence), Get your (B category) driving licence, wait til you're 18 and use the full car licence as a C1 provisional, then once you have learnt how to drive the truck, take your C1 driving test.

2. Get the Unimog 'derated' to under 3500kg and re-plated to reflect this. You legally won't be able to carry such a heavy load, but if its not for commercial use I am guessing this is not such a big issue? To do this, you'll need to produce a plating certificate or design weight certificate, then alter the V5 of the vehicle.
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get it registered as a tractor and problem solved.
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Tom.H
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your help

Surely if i get it registered as a tractor I am limited to only using it for agricultural use??

So far I am up for the 2nd option/idea shown by Paul.C
I can't see the registration office having a problem with 'De rating' the maximum gross weight for the vehicle down to 3500kg

Can anyone confirm whether its actually been done before .... in an circumstance
Still... I am sure there's a way


Cheers
Tom
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mines registered as a tractor, belive me, it's never going to be seeing a field that smooth !!

I don't that that there are any limitation to the type of driving which can be performed by a tractor, although they are not aloud on motorways. I've just had a quick google and couldn't see any specific restrictions on 'how' you have to drive a tractor. TBH round here it's not unusual to see them outside the shops.

Using pink, now that's a totally different matter - but I presume your 404 still have it's petrol engine in place.
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Tom.H
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok

Thanks once again

I got the impression that if you changed the registered use of the vehicle after it had first been registered you could only use it for the exact purpose

I've had a quick look around the internet and it seems your limited to a distance of 10 miles from the farm the vehicle is registered at.

Although the above was only from one or two sites .... I am not completely sure?
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd check, it's totally legal to use a fastrack for long distance towing, and unimogs were also designed as tractors.

Red diesel can't be used more than a specific distance from the site / farm
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The Original Donk
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The DVLA exemptions for an agricultural vehicle do state that you cant drive the vehicle further than 10 miles from the owners land, and is supposed to be for travel between the owners land.

My mog was registered as a lifeboat launcher and the only restriction was that it was to be used for that purpose, So I carried a inflatable dinghy lol.

It is a bit of a grey area.
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RobotMan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mines registered as a mobile crane. I can't afford the petrol to drive it more than 10 miles so the whole thing is a mute point lol!
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paul_c
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donk of Yorkshireshire wrote:
The DVLA exemptions for an agricultural vehicle do state that you cant drive the vehicle further than 10 miles from the owners land, and is supposed to be for travel between the owners land.

My mog was registered as a lifeboat launcher and the only restriction was that it was to be used for that purpose, So I carried a inflatable dinghy lol.

It is a bit of a grey area.


Its not grey, its clearly defined what "Agricultural Use" is and driving to pay & play sites will NOT be in it! The powers-that-be don't like people who try to find loopholes, they tend to think something fishy is going on. I did look at whether you could reregister as a tractor but there's so many limitations it would really cripple your use. Unless of course, you needed it for farming...
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Tom.H
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok

I was skeptical about the agricultural option from the beginning

If there were no limitations/consequences ..... why aren't loads of other 4x4 classed as one to get away with not needing an M.O.T

As already said I'll go down the 'De rating' route as in theory its only likely to be paper work, I've got two months until I am 17 so I should have time to sort everything out. Idea

Again if anyone's ever heard or had any experience of what i am planning to do (So i am prepared) it would be really usefull

Cheers
Tom
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mike97
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I guess you not selling the mog then, is that yours in the classified?, looks really smart.

mike
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paul_c
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definition of a tractor is in 2 parts, one for registration/type approval reasons, and one for licensing (ie which driving licence category you need to have, what age, etc):

Registration:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1987/Uksi_19871771_en_1.htm

Driving Licence:
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=road+traffic&Year=1988&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=2276534&ActiveTextDocId=2276712&filesize=64460

Basically, if its registered as one, you're limited to 20mph. If you drive one on a tracor licence, the vehicle needs to be used for farming.
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally to de-rate trucks one (or more) of the leaves from the pack is removed. If you have the helper springs in the rear end removing those may be sufficent.

Speaking to VOSA or an MOT guy might be the best course of action with regards to the specifics.

Remember the catch 22 of driving a truck to a testing station for reclassification.

If you've a 404.1 then the gross weight should be 4400 (empty 2600) so you've not to do much to get it down a tonne.
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul_c wrote:
Donk of Yorkshireshire wrote:
The DVLA exemptions for an agricultural vehicle do state that you cant drive the vehicle further than 10 miles from the owners land, and is supposed to be for travel between the owners land.

My mog was registered as a lifeboat launcher and the only restriction was that it was to be used for that purpose, So I carried a inflatable dinghy lol.

It is a bit of a grey area.


Its not grey, its clearly defined what "Agricultural Use" is and driving to pay & play sites will NOT be in it! The powers-that-be don't like people who try to find loopholes, they tend to think something fishy is going on. I did look at whether you could reregister as a tractor but there's so many limitations it would really cripple your use. Unless of course, you needed it for farming...



Do you have any links?

All I can find is taxation class limitations which are a moot point due to the age of a 404
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minimog
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you remove the bed (like what you was planning by tubing it) then you could say its total wieght due to there being no loadbed area would be only 2600kgs Laughing
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, can there be come citation on this.

I can find plenty of .gov information on tractors being limited on distance on fuel type and taxation class, but nothing which states 10 miles. In fact, the information on red diesel from farmers weekly specifies a 25 mile trip as an example

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2006/06/08/91743/...ons-answered.html

Having grown up in the farming community I've never heard of a 10 mile limit for a tractor, again going back to long distance towing in a fast track (on white with proper tax).
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paul_c
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dxmedia wrote:
paul_c wrote:
Donk of Yorkshireshire wrote:
The DVLA exemptions for an agricultural vehicle do state that you cant drive the vehicle further than 10 miles from the owners land, and is supposed to be for travel between the owners land.

My mog was registered as a lifeboat launcher and the only restriction was that it was to be used for that purpose, So I carried a inflatable dinghy lol.

It is a bit of a grey area.


Its not grey, its clearly defined what "Agricultural Use" is and driving to pay & play sites will NOT be in it! The powers-that-be don't like people who try to find loopholes, they tend to think something fishy is going on. I did look at whether you could reregister as a tractor but there's so many limitations it would really cripple your use. Unless of course, you needed it for farming...



Do you have any links?

All I can find is taxation class limitations which are a moot point due to the age of a 404


Yep, there's a third definition in terms of taxing (for £0) a tractor:

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/~/media/pdf/leaflets/v335x1.ashx page 7 11.1:

Quote:
11.1 Agricultural MachineThe “Agricultural Machine” tax class includes:i) An Agricultural Tractor – a tractor used on public roads solely for the purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture, forestry or activities falling within:- a) cutting verges bordering public roads;b) cutting hedges or trees bordering public roads or bordering verges which border public roads.

ii) An Off Road Tractor means a tractor which is not
an agricultural tractor and which is:-a) designed and constructed primarily for use otherwise than on roads; andb) incapable by reason of its construction of exceeding a speed of 25 miles per hour on the level under its own power.
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mogmaner
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: road youse Reply with quote

depending on year of build there are more exemptions on milatry trucks whitch mogs fall under in relation to witch licence you need to beive it ,thers a booklet which gives all the gen a ag tractors /machines last time i borowed one it made intresting reading.
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paul_c
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the distance limit stuff relates to using red diesel on the roads. The other limits (tax, licence, registration) are all open to interpretation because it kinda comes back to the "use" of the vehicle. Of course, vehicles like Unimogs and other 4x4s are handy things and are capable of, and useful at, a number of tasks including farming, forestry, launching lifeboats, vehicle recovery, etc.
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul_c wrote:
dxmedia wrote:
paul_c wrote:
Donk of Yorkshireshire wrote:
The DVLA exemptions for an agricultural vehicle do state that you cant drive the vehicle further than 10 miles from the owners land, and is supposed to be for travel between the owners land.

My mog was registered as a lifeboat launcher and the only restriction was that it was to be used for that purpose, So I carried a inflatable dinghy lol.

It is a bit of a grey area.


Its not grey, its clearly defined what "Agricultural Use" is and driving to pay & play sites will NOT be in it! The powers-that-be don't like people who try to find loopholes, they tend to think something fishy is going on. I did look at whether you could reregister as a tractor but there's so many limitations it would really cripple your use. Unless of course, you needed it for farming...



Do you have any links?

All I can find is taxation class limitations which are a moot point due to the age of a 404


Yep, there's a third definition in terms of taxing (for £0) a tractor:

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/~/media/pdf/leaflets/v335x1.ashx page 7 11.1:

Quote:
11.1 Agricultural MachineThe “Agricultural Machine” tax class includes:i) An Agricultural Tractor – a tractor used on public roads solely for the purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture, forestry or activities falling within:- a) cutting verges bordering public roads;b) cutting hedges or trees bordering public roads or bordering verges which border public roads.

ii) An Off Road Tractor means a tractor which is not
an agricultural tractor and which is:-a) designed and constructed primarily for use otherwise than on roads; andb) incapable by reason of its construction of exceeding a speed of 25 miles per hour on the level under its own power.


That's taxation class not vehicle licencing restrictions.

So if a tractor is taxed correctly then it can be driven more than 10 miles from base. And since all 404's are 'tax exempt' there's a zero cost for all taxation unless it's for hire or reward.

Therefore a mog being driven to a p&p site which is 'tax exempt' and registered as a tractor is totally legal?
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: road youse Reply with quote

mogmaner wrote:
depending on year of build there are more exemptions on milatry trucks whitch mogs fall under in relation to witch licence you need to beive it ,thers a booklet which gives all the gen a ag tractors /machines last time i borowed one it made intresting reading.


The 'green' book? About £20 to buy iirc.
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paul_c
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dxmedia wrote:
paul_c wrote:
dxmedia wrote:
paul_c wrote:
Donk of Yorkshireshire wrote:
The DVLA exemptions for an agricultural vehicle do state that you cant drive the vehicle further than 10 miles from the owners land, and is supposed to be for travel between the owners land.

My mog was registered as a lifeboat launcher and the only restriction was that it was to be used for that purpose, So I carried a inflatable dinghy lol.

It is a bit of a grey area.


Its not grey, its clearly defined what "Agricultural Use" is and driving to pay & play sites will NOT be in it! The powers-that-be don't like people who try to find loopholes, they tend to think something fishy is going on. I did look at whether you could reregister as a tractor but there's so many limitations it would really cripple your use. Unless of course, you needed it for farming...



Do you have any links?

All I can find is taxation class limitations which are a moot point due to the age of a 404


Yep, there's a third definition in terms of taxing (for £0) a tractor:

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/~/media/pdf/leaflets/v335x1.ashx page 7 11.1:

Quote:
11.1 Agricultural MachineThe “Agricultural Machine” tax class includes:i) An Agricultural Tractor – a tractor used on public roads solely for the purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture, forestry or activities falling within:- a) cutting verges bordering public roads;b) cutting hedges or trees bordering public roads or bordering verges which border public roads.

ii) An Off Road Tractor means a tractor which is not
an agricultural tractor and which is:-a) designed and constructed primarily for use otherwise than on roads; andb) incapable by reason of its construction of exceeding a speed of 25 miles per hour on the level under its own power.


That's taxation class not vehicle licencing restrictions.

So if a tractor is taxed correctly then it can be driven more than 10 miles from base. And since all 404's are 'tax exempt' there's a zero cost for all taxation unless it's for hire or reward.

Therefore a mog being driven to a p&p site which is 'tax exempt' and registered as a tractor is totally legal?


According to the article on your earlier link, no, because pay & play site isn't an agricultural use:

Quote:
Can I use one tractor to swap between agricultural and non-agricultural tasks, also swapping from red to white diesel?

No.

If the vehicle is not used "solely" for agricultural, forestry or horticultural work, then it should be licensed in a more appropriate Vehicle Excise License category at the DVLA and run on white diesel all the time.

You cannot swap between red and white diesel according to the job.

That said, provided a vehicle has been drained down and is running on white diesel if stopped by Revenue and Customs while performing non-qualifying work, no action will be taken.


As I see it, there's a bunch of exemptions in licensing, MoT, C&U, etc which tractors enjoy, so long as they're only used for farming, the booby prize being a 20mph speed limit.

The law is complicated (could be said, clear as mud LOL) but a lot of the areas have been 'tested' so its reasonably well defined what you can & can't do.
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mogmaner
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: road youse Reply with quote

the 20mph limit only aplies to tractors with one braked axel ,the mog has two so is clased the same as fast tracs whitch is 45mph if i remembe correct .on fuel cost i run mine on lpg makes it less painfull for long runs.
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article I linked was a case study for red diesel. Nothing to do with the registration type.

The 20mph is both set of brakes and I though also axles which have suspension (which a common or garden tractor doesnt) and as mogmanner says, the mog is the same as a fastrack in that respect.

So if a 404 is running petrol (or dieselsed on white), is tax exempt, has working brakes on both axles, has suspension on both axles and is not being used for hire / reward. It can be registered as a tractor and driven anywhere bar a motorway, and on dual carridgways as long as a flashing amber beacon is on?
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mogmaner
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:40 pm    Post subject: road youse Reply with quote

just done a little reading and found that the fast trac is alowed on motaways at 40mph so this should aply to mogs taxed as tractors.gets more intresting the more you read.
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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So going back to the original post,

It's looking like a mog taxed as a tractor can be driven by someone with a post 97 car licence ? As long as the above criteria are being met, and there's no limit to distance from the home base.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can a 17 year old new driver get insurance for a Tractor, if he is not a Commercial company (farm), land owner, non home owner, or has a Urban post code?
Other than possibly proving that you take part in vintage tractor collecting & ploughing matches!

TomH.
How does it look for you being able to get insurance for road use of a Mog?
Have you approched insurance companies?
Would you be looking at insuring yourself as the 'main driver'
Or trying to be a 'named driver' with someone else being the registered keeper?
Which is becoming very risky these days, if you are the 'main driver'

I see in your advert selling the Mog for £4500,
That "it was very easy & cheap to insure the vehicle under X Military Insurance"
(you clearly have a lot to teach us on vehicle trading, you have owned some nice motors)

Can i ask is it you that owns the vehicle or someone else??
& is Nick Haryett your Father? i used to see him at the Caterham Graduate Racing! & Bex & Martine.

Off topic,
but your rear engined Landie, how is it working out?
Does it look like you will get insurance for that?
george
www.premiumchoice.co.uk
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Tom.H
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi George

You've guessed the family part correctly ..... Nick is my farther. He's still racing Caterhams with the Graduate's club.
I am planning on being a 'named driver' with my dad being the registered owner of the 404.

I haven't looked and got an actual quote yet although I feel confident it shouldn't be to much. I am aware that its risky to be a named driver so I'll also have ago I getting it registered in my own name. Although i'll just have to see how it all works out ..................

I've funded for my 404 manly through doing a paper round for the last 4 years as well as doing jobs at farms and local garages.
I brought the rear engined land rover to replace the Unimog as I was finding it a bit overwhelming to turn into a competition vechicle.

Although within the last few weeks things have changed. After finding out the land rover needs an IVA/SVA to get on the road and with the test alone costing £450 I've concluded that it's probably worth buying a tow vehicle and trailer and towing the land rover to and from events. By doing this If the land rover breaks I can also still get home.

After buying the Land Rover my dad officially owned the Unimog (As i only had the money to own one of the vehicle). It was up to me to sell the 404 as the whole off roading thing wasn't really his scene (many of your have seen the adverts).

Saying that both of use began to have second thoughts about selling it a few weeks after putting the adverts up (Driving it back from Wales seemed to have created a bond)



cheers
Tom


Last edited by Tom.H on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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