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404 Diesel
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mike97
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: 404 Diesel Reply with quote

Hi folks,
I've been offered a Merc G wagon diesel engine - 3L 5cyl OM 617 i think. and been wondering how well it might fit into a 404? After a quick search on the net I found a guy in Germany who sells a conversion kit, but its over two grand for the special bellhousing - ouch. too much for me.
So i'm thinking more about a home brew conversion plate/ adaptor?

Has anyone else fitted this engine?? what pros and cons might i be up against?
Many thanks in advance
Mike
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minimog
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Odometer: 1700




PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

try doing a search this has been done quite a few times and theres plenty of info in what fits and the probs with the mog bell housing
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WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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mike97
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep the engine i have been offered is a non turbo, Im not looking to make the mog any faster, but I like the benafits of a diesel when off road ie, more torque at low revs, smooth running at any angle, and some better economy would be nice bonus too?
Ill do some searching through the old forums to see what others have done.
all good fun Rolling Eyes
mike
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lindenengineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Odometer: 3750
Location: Golden Colorado USA



PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys
The M617 develops 125 HP and is felt on the road big time when compared with the M180 especially at 8000 ft, at best a ponderous beast.
Here in Denver at 6000' you had better change down on the slight grade at 70kph or you will lose the lot and risk a 120,000lb Kenworth artic up your rear end blowing his air horns!
The 130hp M130 engine will make it perform a bit more lively but is NO comparison to the oiler. Besides the oil engine give great fuel economy as opposed to the M180/M130 driven flat out and it loves to stall near every gas station it passes!

The turbo M617 just digs in and never loses it's road speed so you can keep trucking even up steep grades and never see the speedo below 45kph on the highway.It does suffer from turbo lag so you need to keep the engine on the boil. Can be a chore off road and the same goes for a G wagon so converted. Can get quite exciting on ice! The last one (Mog) I drove after a conversion was a 416 DoKa cabbed 404 chassis/cab arrangement and I passed a guy doing 60 mph in a D90.
On the nuts and bolts stuff:-
You cannot use the std flywheel from the petrol Mog!
You have to use the manual flywheel from the 240D and get machining! In fact carving it out to get it to accept the Mog clutch set up including the spacer ring! I have all the dimensions if you need it and have pictures of the finished product. Of course the std bell housing won't work and I have used the German Cast Iron unit--read & spendy. I have now used the G wagon bell housing and made an adaptor tube 'n flange to get it to fit onto the box thus saving a boat load of cash. (Read when there WAS $2 to a Pound)
Any more info you need is at hand so just hollar!
Cheers Dennis

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dxmedia
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not use the d240 clutch and graft input shafts? hell of a lot less mess than turning fly wheels?
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minimog
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heres a idea the 411 uses the 636 engine could it be swaped out for any of the bigger merc deisel engines im not worried about body work there isnt any but would like a bolt in solution
that way if you found the 411 bell housing you could fit that directly to a 404 and fit the diesel lump in

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WHAT YOUR ASKED WHEN YOU OWN A MOG
"why have you put a merc star on that"
UNIMOG MOTTO
"IF IT CARNT BE FIXED WITH A BIG HAMMER"
IT MUST BE AN ELECTRICAL FAULT"
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lindenengineering
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DX media
The problem with what you suggest is durability and customer acceptance.
In short I and my company build these modified 404's to customer order and they run in the order of $10,000 plus to turn out. My experience has shown that the 240D style clutch doesn't live too well and I have had comebacks at my expense to fix.
We know the 404 std clutch works and although it comes with a sintered bronze button clutch plate or regular organic automotive style plate, the button variety is specified in almost all situations. Besides the button clutch has some interesting cushion riveting on the F&S plate that aids smooth engagement which is not available in the car style 240D clutch arr'.
So we just stay with what is tried and proved and that is good for my bottom line and comebacks are a chore to fix at our expense. Simply we just do what it takes to avoid problems unless the customer wants to deviate from the Linden std spec and then he signs a waiver. Cover your back side CYA!
Dennis

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dxmedia
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried and tested then Wink
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Turnip
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I have also been looking around for a viable Diesel for the Mog, The problem is that most of the decent and available diesels – like the landrover 200 tdi have the manifolds on the LHS – just where you legs want to be. Now nothing is impossible but shifting manifolds over is a lot of work.
My possible salvation – and I say possible because it is not running yet!! Has come by way of an Iveco/ Fiat 2.5tdi 8140.47 motor from a Ducato 3.5 tonne van. This engine is mounted transversly and has nothing on the front bar the fuel pump. All the manifolds are on the back or right hand side. I have a big issue with this because my previous engine was a Ford York with LHS exhaust which melted my boots when pulling timber!
The Iveco gearbox when emptied of its gears makes a nice spacer and with a bit of ingenuity spigots via an ally bush to pick up on the plate which bolts to the Mog engine. This plate in turn bolts to the Mog box and we all live happily ever after – I hope!
The only thing that was “difficult” was making the Iveco input shaft mate to the Mog – See Pic.
I have lots of phots which I will post when /if up and running!

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lindenengineering
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah ha
Different engines--alternative diesel engines! That's the nice thing about Euro availability. On this side no such luck, few vehicles in the light duty sector have been oil engine powered.
The most prevalent is of course the Benz range like 240D now getting abit rare, and the OM617 series in normally aspirated and Turbo versions. There are some later 616's about but again rare. Even today the Benz ML series SUV and the Volks diesel cars haven't been too popular with the public and that is due to the prices of fuel and other factors not really worth mentioning. LR 1989 have never officially imported diesel LR's to the USA by the way.
For info about 95% of all Benz production of the 5 cyl M617 in turbo derivatives were exported to the USA from 1981 to 1985 and model run out. These were in auto transmision form so using one for a Mog means junking the auto flywheel and fixing bolts and using a 240 manual unit with the shorter fixing bolts (another difficult part to find as they are a special waisted hex 12 10mm bolt). Now these days it is getting difficult to obtain parts for therse M617's as parts dry up on this side. For major internal stuff parts have to come from Germany through MB-USA and a weeks wait is commonplace and spendy. I bought a genuine ring set for a 5 banger not so long ago and the ring kit was $500 per piston set.
So in many ways being on your side gives you alot more engines to choose from.
Dennis

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mike97
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats some usefull info, cheers, well im now the proud owner of a 617 engine with G wagen flywheel clutch and gearbox. Plan is to use G flywheel, clutch and bellhousing and make an adaptor plate between bellhousing and 404 gearbox. Dennis - any pics of this setup please? Did you rotate the engine to help clear bodywork?

Also thinking that when engine is fitted, if I find the n/a is lacking horses, its not too much bother to then swop to the 617a (turbo) at a later date!

Mike
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lindenengineering
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Location: Golden Colorado USA



PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike97
Yes I can fire you some pictures.
Yes the engine is canted over to the passengers side and a small cut away is needed in the floor to clear the turbo assy.
On the drivers side the fuel lift pump will foul "the tin" so we eliminate the std pump and install a lecky unit from a diesel GM 6.5 PU c/w a modern divider valve; since the std MOG one has a tendency to draw air and cause fuel aeration.. This give lots of flow but we do put a carburetor jet in the return line since the fuel tends to flow direct to return when flat scat, the MB car had a restricter in the return fuel line--this emulates the German design for MB 123 body version it was once in!

On the front we have a bracket that bolts op to the front of the engine with two feet on to accept two silentbloc mounts. Then we weld a channel section to the front x tube, which in turn allow you to bolt a pivot plate to the underside. This has a sleeved bush inside it which connects to a bow shaped main mount running under the engine to the mounts allowing chassis articulation without stressing the front mounting arrangement. Hence with all this canting of the engine the front is simplified to allow easy maintenance and engine removal. (should it be necessary)
I can fire you some pictures of the set up if you need it. I can even sell you a front mount arr' if you just want to plug 'n play.
Cheers Dennis

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mike97
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dennis,
Yep some photos would be really helpfull, thanks. I assume for the clutch linkage you do away with the mog set up and go hydraulic using the merc. release arm, bearing and slave cylinder and fit a new master cylinder linked to the pedal?

Turnip - That conversion using the Iveco engine looks great, like you say its tricky to fine an engine with inlet/ exhaust on one side. Let us know how the conversion goes, looking forward to seeing the pics.

Mike
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lindenengineering
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike97
Yes on the clutch we do that with the M/cyl connected directly to the shortened pushrod/link. I will gather some photos for you tomorrow we are doing two conversions in the shop at present.

Yes I send that comment to Turnip, nice looking conversion/adaption keep us posted.
Dennis

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mike97
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work in progress....
G wagen gearbox, bellhousing removed and offered upto mog gearbox..


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RobotMan
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Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Odometer: 251
Location: Bishop Auckland



PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any progress Mike?
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Rob (Robotman) Taylor.
MonkeyMotorSport
Big Dog Engineering
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mike97
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
yes making slow progress. The engine needed a bit more work than i hoped, re-bore, new pistons and a crank re-grind. Just in the process of putting it all back togeather. With that done I can get on with the bellhousing / gearbox adaptor, will post pics when made more progress.

Dennis, any pics of your set up please?

cheers Mike
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lindenengineering
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike 97
My daughter was supposed to have posted the photo gallery to you weeks ago. I haven't been plumbing this far down the forum page of late to Mogs for a while so I have just seen your post.
First you are on the "right track baby"!
I will, post you some pictures of the bell housing but remember you will have to make up a sleeve for the clutch withdrawal bearing since it doesn't float like the old Moggie one when using the G wagon set up. Also you may have to install a spacer behind the flywheel back plate to get some free play allowance . I have even contemplated machining down the bell housing a bit to get some more movement.
Stand by. Dennis

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mike97
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi gents,
Some progress, engine is almost finished, just need to fit ancillaries and its ready to go.
Started to make g.box adaptor today, I don't have access to any machine shop gear, so this is home brew engineering at its best! Next is to make a steel plate to bolt to the back of the bellhousing and then lots of carefull alignment/ measuring before it gets welded to the g.box plate. Also plan to tilt the engine 13degrees to help bodywork clearence.
Dennis, I was planning on using the stock G wagen tube to support the clutch release bearing, and then use the G release arm and slave cyl, hopefully keeping the whole clutch system standard G wagen?



regards Mike
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Turnip
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progress on the Turnip Mog - I have now got the engine in and running. The results look promising. I have since found that this engine is common to the Fiat Ducato, Peugeot boxer and Citroen relay, It is called an 8140. 47 and depending on who you believe it dishes out about 120 bhp. Initial tests have been off road but the improvement is staggering (over a 4 cyl York thats not hard!!) The sump is well baffled and I have had approx 45 degree up and down and side slopes which make my **** twitch and no loss of oil pick up. The truck was always in 1st or second when off road and now is happy to do most places in 3rd. It is happy to pull away up hill in 3rd too. I havent a rev counter fitted yet but when the turbo chimes in I can hook 4th and it really flies.
Road tests soon! The engine fits a treat and the pics show the Ford adaptor by the Iveco, I have shoved the motor forward 7" so that the front is where the original would be. The body work on my Mog is a one off so I dont know what would happen on a std unit?

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Turnip
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the first road test with the Iveco 2.5 tdi motor in my 404. I went collect some IBC containers and managed to sneak on the weighbridge first! With this engine in and an ally tipper body she is spot on 3000kg.
So far this coversion seem to be really good, it goes like stink on the road now. I can pull one and sometimes 2 gears higher than I could with the previous Ford engine. I will venture further soon, but the indications are that I could refit the 12.50 x 20 tyres with this much power?
If anyone is looking to go diesel this really is worth consideration. I have all the pictures as I went along and drawings of most parts, the gearbox housing from the engine mates well with the Mog engine plate and perfect alignment is quite easy to achieve.

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mike97
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe its over a year ago when I started this thread, how time flys! Anyway got my **** into gear again and Im cracking on with the diesel conversion.
Cab off, petrol engine out, bellhousing off, custom adaptor fitted and G wagon bellhousing fitted.....



more soon
Mike
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s.frimodt
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Joined: 08 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you do some serious bracing and reinforcement of that bellhousing you've made, you will need some other connections between engine and gearbox. There's a loong way from the engine mount to the gearbox mount. How are you going about making the clutch hydraulic?, ie how are you planing to fit a mastercylinder?
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Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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mike97
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soren,
Yes I am planning to fit some bracing bars that go from the bottom of the gearbox flange to the back of the engine. I cant fit the braces untill I get the engine in position and see what room there is by the round crossmember.
The clutch as you can see will be hydraulic, I think it will be strightforward mount a master cylinder next to the brake master cyl. and use the existing pedal - with reversed lever so it pushes on the new cylinder as opposed to the old pull system, hope that makes sence!

mike
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s.frimodt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes perfect sense Smile Looking forward to the progress
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Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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BEERBELLYKELLY
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

really good info rich thread-makes me miss my mogs!im just going down the repower road with a cummins to a SUMB trans,im nowhere near,but threads like these and freely given info from folk like dennis and turnip are a real encouragement-keep hacking!
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lindenengineering
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys
I can't seem to posts pictures on this forum but if someone wants a PM over the regular E mail system I can shoot pictures of the installation I have done.
You only have to ask.
Cheers Dennis

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lindenengineering
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike 97
Looking at your fabrication it ended up similar in concept to mine.
Essentially I started with a 3/4" thick sheet of steel and flame cut out a horse shoe to emulate the shape of gearbox flange of the original bell housing.
I then cut a 3/8" sheet to cover the horseshoe flange and welded it together for strength, cutting a 2" hole for the spigot clutch shaft.

At this stage of the game I made a jig to hold it and then drilled the holes and dowel guides. Laying flat I cut a piece of 1/4 wall tube for the shaft extension and then welded a 3/8" plate to the tube end to adapt the G wagon bell. Large gusset reinforcement was added to each 90" corner of the tube to reinforce/strengthen. Getting a bit rambunctous on the webs, I had to grind one off a bit to clear the tube X member.
I used Merb 240D master and slave cylinders to operate the system having to extend the slave cylinder push rod to operate the clutch.
Dennis

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit more progress this weekend, got the engine in and bolted up to the bellhousing, then spent several hours making the front engine mount.


more soon
mike
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s.frimodt
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good, yes it can take an enormous amount of time, just to make a bracket Smile That is what people tend to forget.
__________________________________
Søren Frimodt Petersen
(Jysk Mog Crawlers)
'64 Mog 404, 49" Nokia MPT's, 120bhp M180, rollcage etc.

'53 Land Rover Series 1, awaiting some minor upgrades
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