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Hot Diesel

 
 
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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
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Location: New Zealand



PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:38 am    Post subject: Hot Diesel Reply with quote

What would be the benefits of using a fuel heater to heat the diesel before it is injected?.
I assume the diesel delivery system is a pressurized system and the diesel would combust better once it was injected into the cylinder?.

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terence
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If its pressurized then its already hot.

common rails have fuel coolers, not heaters.
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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thinking would be the diesel would vaporise as soon as it left the injector, thereby com busting completely.
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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot Diesel Reply with quote

nivaman wrote:
What would be the benefits of using a fuel heater to heat the diesel before it is injected?.


Why not find out if they use this kind of thing on big lorry or marine engines (where any increase in weight or initial cost is much less important than any possible small gains in power or economy)?

Hint - they don't , they have fuel coolers ....

cheers, Ross K

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cieranc
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question Used a new Scania the other day, hire motor, it had a tank heater which was switched on. I asked the guys in the workshop how to switch it off as I couldn't find a switch for it. They said there isn't a switch for it, just leave it on Question

And I would assume it was a common rail, as are most new commercial engines.

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Kitesurf
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005
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Location: Luton, Beds


1994 Toyota Surf

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cieranc wrote:
Question Used a new Scania the other day, hire motor, it had a tank heater which was switched on. I asked the guys in the workshop how to switch it off as I couldn't find a switch for it. They said there isn't a switch for it, just leave it on Question

And I would assume it was a common rail, as are most new commercial engines.


Maybe the tank heater is on a thermostat and only cuts in below a certain temperature to stop the derv waxing? My Surf (with Winter pack) has a thermostatically controlled fuel preheater.

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Cagey
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Joined: 20 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We use Scania engined generators in our hire fleet, same engines as lorries, no common rails yet but most use electronic injectors with solenoids to accurately meter the fuel delivery.
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terence
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right ill say it again.

Common rails have fuel coolers, pressurised fuel = hot fuel.

TDi's like heated fuel.

also tank heaters are utilised with veg converted lorries too.( not common rail though)

Rolling Eyes
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cieranc
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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Location: Darlington



PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil, this was used on an average spring day, not particulary cold and certinly not cold enough for a tank heater Question .

Terence, heard you the first time, but I don't think it's as black and white as that Laughing !

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Nathaniel
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fuel cooler on a common rail cools the fuel before it goes back to the tank - to stop it melting the plastic tank.

How hot does the fuel get in a common rail?

I'll put it this way - the heat exchnager uses the engines coolant to cool the fuel!

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cieranc
Just got MTs


Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, doesn't matter how hot it gets under compression, as it can't expand, it can't vapourise. Until it gets fired out of the injector.

Under compression, perhaps it's heating limit is it's flashpoint.
You're not going to get near that with a coolant powered heat exchanger!

Will heated diesel still lubricate the injector pump as it was intended to?
Well again, it can't expand under compression, so why not?

Going back to RAF engineering school - Thermodynamics:

Increase in pressure=increase in temperature and decrease in speed,
Decrease in pressure= decrease in pressure and increase in speed.

Ok so these fundamental fluid mechanics apply to airflow, but the same principles appy.
Funny what you can remember when you're pished!

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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cieranc wrote:


Will heated diesel still lubricate the injector pump as it was intended to?
Well again, it can't expand under compression, so why not?


I can't see why not, if not then may have to add a wee bit of high quality low ash two stroke oil.
Under pressure the heated diesel would still behave as diesel until injected then would vaporise pretty quickly resulting in better combustion, or am i wrong?.
terence the TDI diesel engine is turbo yes?.

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terence
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TDI =

Turbo Direct Injection.


Very Happy
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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive been looking at this too
if you heated the fuel to around 80degC it should be fine... (i think diesel self combusts at 120-140)
my understanding of a diesel is that to make it more efficient (hence more powerful) it likes cold air and hot fuel

look at the vapour carbs and vapour fuel systems for the petrols and youl see the efficiency increases theyve claimed (80-200 mpg on a v8 thats been tuned to idle at 400 and rev to 6k)

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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
Odometer: 929
Location: New Zealand



PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NRS91 wrote:

if you heated the fuel to around 80degC it should be fine... (i think diesel self combusts at 120-140)
my understanding of a diesel is that to make it more efficient (hence more powerful) it likes cold air and hot fuel


That was my thinking as well, snorkel to air filter to intercooler from there to turbo inlet keeping everything short as possible.
Add the hot diesel and should be a happening thing.

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Last edited by nivaman on Mon May 25, 2009 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea except i was thinking twin snorkle with cone filters on top... then twin charged and twin coolers Twisted Evil
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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cieranc wrote:
Decrease in pressure= decrease in pressure and increase in speed.

Funny what you can remember when you're pished!


you mean temprature im guessing?
still pished? Laughing

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cieranc
Just got MTs


Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Rolling Eyes
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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NRS91 wrote:
yea except i was thinking twin snorkle with cone filters on top... then twin charged and twin coolers Twisted Evil

And increase in lag and fuel consumption possibly.

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TheBigPurpleOne
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one super charger and on turbo... like the vw twin charge...
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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
Odometer: 929
Location: New Zealand



PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes i see what you mean now Smile , thought it was something like one turbo blowing through the other.
A friend used the supercharger/turbo idea on his 2LT Toyota Hilux, said it went extremely well, too well and knew that something would happen so took it off again Rolling Eyes .
Mind you i can see his point, he takes no prisoners when he is driving his truck.

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TheBigPurpleOne
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i had twin turbo it would either have to be double expansion in line or two smaller turbos side by side

anyway thats very OT... so whats the general concensus on heated diesel?

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nivaman
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Location: New Zealand



PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It turns out my diesel filter is heated any way so will probably use that, it also has a Bosch pump so will be able to go with WVO or biodiesel.
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