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Very Basicaly, Why is A Framing Bad?
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Bala Boater
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Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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2000 Nissan D21 Doublecab

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Very Basicaly, Why is A Framing Bad? Reply with quote

A mate of mine is looking at this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/suzuki-sj-410-off-roader_...%3A1%7C240%3A1318

And said I could tow him to events ect, and I said Aframing=Bad, but when pushed on the subject I didnt really know why.

Can someone please enlighten me....

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cieranc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In very brief, any trailer over 750kgs has to be fully braked.
Towing this on an A frame means all four wheels need to brake with the towcar.

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bigt
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im guessing here that the motor homes towing the smarts, ford ka`s, etc are aiming to be towing less than 750kg....

Did see a large US motor home towing his runabout for the weekend.....

L200 doublecab Shocked
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LlaniGraham
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No they are breaking the law!
As far as I know there are only 3 cars produced below the 750kg limit:
Q-Pod
Smart For2
some French Micro car

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trailer guy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe they're all running illegally. Llani & Cieranc are both right (I think the French car is an Aixam).

The law regards them as unbraked trailers - therefore 750kg mass gross trailer weight, not car's kerb weight. The figure to use is the car's gross vehicle weight or maximum permitted weight which is usually between 200 and 400kg more than the car's kerb weight.

Unfortunately, your mate would be running illegally if he were to use the frame to tow the truck on the road. Sad

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TheClunk
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never thought about the laws about running A-frames before.
4 days after passing my driving test (Nov 93), I was stopped by the police near Witney Whilst driving a Range Rover with a Montego Estate on an A-frame. Their only complaint is that I only had 18 inches between the two cars. They made me stretch it to 6 foot before continuing. Their argument was to make it more obvious that I was towing.
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Terranosaurus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trailer guy wrote:
I believe they're all running illegally. Llani & Cieranc are both right (I think the French car is an Aixam).

The law regards them as unbraked trailers - therefore 750kg mass gross trailer weight, not car's kerb weight. The figure to use is the car's gross vehicle weight or maximum permitted weight which is usually between 200 and 400kg more than the car's kerb weight.

Unfortunately, your mate would be running illegally if he were to use the frame to tow the truck on the road. Sad


Problem is if a trailer is fitted with brakes they have to be operational wether it is over 750kg or not.

These motor home outfits just get away with it but in the event of a serious accidnt I would expect them to get the full on treatment.
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thinfourth
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LlaniGraham wrote:
No they are breaking the law!
As far as I know there are only 3 cars produced below the 750kg limit:
Q-Pod
Smart For2
some French Micro car


Caterham 7 550Kg Wink
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twiggy24
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me and my old man use a A frame for towing our off roader about 2 months back we where leaving the off road site (bulidwas) and if any one on here has been will know there is a steep slope on to the site as we where going down my old man touched the breaks and the discovery we was towing with stoped but the vitra we was towing did'nt (there was mud on the hill) it put a rather large dent in the quater pannel and ripped the bumper off Embarassed

apart from that we have had no trouble

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trailer guy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a caterham behind a m/home?! that'd be woth seeing! Very Happy
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alaric
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the gross weight for all the Caterham variants is over 800kgs - so no go!
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Roger
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To tow my SJ 413 behind my Toyota KZJ 70 I made an "A" frame that was fitted with an old style caravan coupling. A bowden cable connected the operating lever to the footbrake pedal in the car.

With the system connected, the whole rig was stable and safe and braked easily in a straight line or in a bend. The ride was so smooth, that you only noticed the Suzuki when you saw it in the mirror's!

Without the system activated, the rig was lethal as any braking above a medium level would see the Suzuki trying to dive under the back of the Toyota. Any attempt to brake in a corner would see the whole lot jack-knife.

Roger
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bens_jeep
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are also concessions for recovery, if you are using an A-frame or one of those two-wheel dollies; but you won't have much success claiming you are 'recovering' if you get stopped, becsue you ( presumably ) aren't an approved recovery contractor using a purpose-made or modified recovery vehicle
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bens_jeep
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always worked on the basis that the maximum load weight using a braked trailer was the same as the towing vehicle, at least for larger 4x4s. I've regularly done this at work, and hire companies like SHB do it all the time - deliver a vehicle on a trailer behind another similar one. I hired a trailer a while ago to deliver my old Toyota Land Cruiser, and that was no problem. Since the trailer was hired, and I listed the towing vehicle on the form I had to fill in before collection, I have to mpresume that was legal.

looking around for some numbers, I find that for my Jeep Cherokee ( to take an example, because I have the handbook ) it shows vehicle weight as 2520kg and gross load weight as 2800kg, so that seems right; it would give the trailer unladen weight as 280 kg, which seems about right
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peeprox1991
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger wrote:
To tow my SJ 413 behind my Toyota KZJ 70 I made an "A" frame that was fitted with an old style caravan coupling. A bowden cable connected the operating lever to the footbrake pedal in the car.

With the system connected, the whole rig was stable and safe and braked easily in a straight line or in a bend. The ride was so smooth, that you only noticed the Suzuki when you saw it in the mirror's!

Without the system activated, the rig was lethal as any braking above a medium level would see the Suzuki trying to dive under the back of the Toyota. Any attempt to brake in a corner would see the whole lot jack-knife.

Roger


Sheer genius Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mater of mine A frames his lightweight but he has connected the hitch to the brakes. I intended adding brakes to mine so where is the problem?
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cieranc
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger and .
Are your systems type approved? If they are, then you're totally legal. If they're not then they're illegal. If you were involved in an accident, even if it's completely not your fault, VOSA will tear you apart.

Up until recently I worked for a police recovery contractor. We've seen it time and time again where vehicles have been in accidents and Vosa go to town on them. I'm not talking about old knackered sheds either.
Had a job a while ago, a BMW overtaking on a duel carriageway spun out of control, across the crntral reservation and hit an L200 coming the other way. The L200 was towing a plant trailer with a mini-digger on it.

The BMW driver was completely at fault, admitted so and the L200 driver was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
BMW driver got done with "Without due care and attention", 3 points.
L200 driver got done for overloaded trailer (by about 50kgs), insecure load because VOSA decided two ratchet straps were not strong enough to secure a 1 ton minidigger, and obscured rear number plate.

It was a new vehicle, with a new, good condition trailer, loaded the same way every one else loads them, being driven sensibly. The digger had not come off the trailer, it just has to look insecure to get this charge.

Top and bottom of it is, if you are involved in an accident, irrelevent of fault, you'll get torn to pieces if you're not 100% legal.

The only time A frames are legal to use unbraked is to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. That means off the motorway into the nearest services or off the next slip road. You cannot recover off the motorway and back home, or from home to a garage in town, it covers you from point of breakdown to first available safe place to park. You would be using it illegally if you towed from a pay and play site to back home, as they'd argue you could have left the car there and arranged recovery.

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w3526602
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Joined: 10 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Not only must a 750kg trailer have brakes. if a 200kg trailer has brakes, they must work, so even a lightweight car LIKE A LOTUS 7 must be braked when being towed. But you can drive it on an old bike licence. Now there's a thought.

Nobody has PROVED that a A-frame is illegal. But nor have they proved them to be legal. They are tolerated.....TODAY.

602

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cieranc
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree, the law is quite clear. The AA have stopped using their's for recovery over a few miles, where once over they'd happily take the casualty vehicle 50 miles+.

Trouble is people will only be convinced it is illegal after a high profile coroners report or CIU inquest, ultimately it will take a serious accident or death for this to happen. Nobody wants that, but I'm certain if there was a serious accident, VOSA would go to town on the 'A-Framer', if it's a fatality there'd be a prison sentance involved.

I sincerely hope it doesn't take another 'Gresh' case to spell the law out to people Sad

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w3526602
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

There was a fatality, which my memory suggess involved an A-frame.

Last year, Scotland, agricultural show, something being towed by Land Rover, children killed. Mentioned on DIFFLOCK. Can anybody refresh, or correct, my memory?

602

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cieranc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a little lad killed at the Highland Show, concrete bollard toppled over onto him I think?
Don't think it was motor related though.

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winchman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thinfourth wrote:
LlaniGraham wrote:
No they are breaking the law!
As far as I know there are only 3 cars produced below the 750kg limit:
Q-Pod
Smart For2
some French Micro car


Caterham 7 550Kg Wink

But it is fitted with brakes so they have to work at the correct designed efficiency

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winchman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cieranc wrote:
Roger and .

The only time A frames are legal to use unbraked is to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. That means off the motorway into the nearest services or off the next slip road. You cannot recover off the motorway and back home, or from home to a garage in town, it covers you from point of breakdown to first available safe place to park. You would be using it illegally if you towed from a pay and play site to back home, as they'd argue you could have left the car there and arranged recovery.


Thats the law as I see it too, Braked A frames just arnt worth a carrot as the law states the brakes must work to the designed efficiency, and this would be very difficult to prove with any home made system and you still would have to find a way around the Place of safety rule.

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sloss
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Home made 'A' Frames, no matter how good, are illegal without type approval - try to get that as a private indivudual.

I'm mindful that just because a car is being towed doesn't mean it becomes a trailer. It's still a motor vehicle, on the Queen's Highway so it requires Tax, Insurance and an MoT (if over 3 years old).

That could be a painful experience if they decide to pull you!

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Roger
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The May 2009 edition of 4x4 magazine has a one page article ( page 101 ) on "A" framing a Hotchkiss Jeep behind a Jeep Cherokee.

There is no mention of any law's appertaining to the system used, so I have emailed John Carroll (Editor) and asked for his advice. As of now, I have not received a reply but I will keep you informed.

Roger
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w3526602
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

A towed car is both a car and a trailer, and has to comply with both sets of legislation. Even with somebody sitting in it, it is still an UNBRAKED trailer. Note, the person sitting in the car has to perform TWO functions (steering and braking) to be regarded as driving.

I think the LOTUS 7 weighed about 8cwt. The Caterham was heavier.

602

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bens_jeep
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHB fitter tells me that they have discontinued the practice entirely for insurance reasons.

According to my insurers, they DO NOT regard them as a trailer for the purposes of my current policy; since there's nothing special about it, I assume that's a general comment
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Military Vehicle Trust (MVT) does an obscene amount of research into stuff like this and over 3 short articles reporting on their discussions with Government, Police and Insurers they came to the conclusion, like us, that whilst there are exceptions the Law is very clear that A Framing is illegal except in emergencies and even then only for a short distance.

It also noted that so far there is little or no case Law supporting the illegality, however members are advised not to A-frame as it is clearly not legal therefore unlikely to be insurable and is, in any case, not sensible.

This was their advise for all vehicles, including the writer's 10 tonne transporter pulling a Willy's Jeep!

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of campers have linked brakes, you can tell on the car thats being towed as they have a couple of brackets where the a-frame attaches and a cable eye in the center. I've seen quite a few and they look quite professional so I assume they are approved by someone?

On bank holdiay monday i saw a willies jeep being a-framed by a ZIL radio truck that was being a-framed by a ZIL wrecker. Now thats got to be some sort of record!

On wednesday I saw a police transit dolly towing a police astra, no way it was a recovery 'to the safest place' so is that legal?

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bens_jeep
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...item=250415785672

interesting that you mention the MVT advising it to be illegal, in the light of the above link. Leaving aside the question of why anyone should be willing to pay £1850 for what is still a repainted Mahindra, the seller doesn't appear to have read that article!

I do know that my old Jeep is still chugging around the MV circuit, but it is either driven or trailered to events. I upset the present owner at a show... He had the old, brown logbook on his display board, to show that it had been in continuous use for over 50 years, and I told him that I was the previous owner who had painted it Caterpillar Yellow! I was using it on a pipeline spread in about 1979, it needed a lick of paint and the fitters had no end of it, so we tied sacks over the seats and tyres, stuck newspaper over the dashboard, and gave it a quick squirt.

Seemed to be pretty much how the Army had painted it in he first place.... he was upset that I hadn't recorded its then-extant markings, but no-one cared about that sort of thing then.... it was just a scruffy old Jeep back then.



There was another Wrangler on ebay recently fitted with a home-made A-frame, allegedly for towing behind a motorhome.



I rather suspect that the above comment about lack of case law, is the crucial point. It may or may not be specifically illegal, but can't be demonstrated either way, and so the risk is entirely with the driver of the towing vehicle.

It must have been considered legal at one time, because SHB used to do it regularly, usually towing a Land Rover behind a larger vehicle such as a 3 tonne Bedford. There are indeed motor homes so fitted, and it is legal in the US, which is probably where the parts come from.
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