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scut44
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 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject:
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If you believe its a Public Road
& you have the legal right to drive across it in a vehicle, why dont you take up that right then?
I am sure you will have the full force of the law/courts behind you if someone is obstructing your legal rights, simples really.
I/We & many others have/did recorded it,
as the Authorities well know. (many must be like me,'i'm alright Jack  )
& organisations mentioned in the thread have full knowledge of all gates/barriers etc.& the history behind them
Lots of kiddology & turning of blind eyes going on here from Statutory Bodies & the Local Authority IMHO.
Its funny that the bodies that have responsibility for the route/road/area have access through the gates & have keys for them.
You need to do Freedom of information requests possibly.
george
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Odometer: 103
Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject:
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| s44gtw wrote: | If you believe its a Public Road
& you have the legal right to drive across it in a vehicle, why dont you take up that right then? |
In Scottish law, the word "road" means the same as "highway" in England & Wales - i.e. any way over which the public have a right of passage, by any means. There is no implication that you can legally drive a vehicle on it - that requires proof of public usage by vehicle over a long period of time (usually 20 years). No such proof exists, because no one has collected and collated evidence of usage. Note that in Scottish law there is no distinction between different kinds of vehicles and their rights - so if rights are proven for bicycles, for example, then those rights apply to motor vehicles also. This used to be true in England & Wales also - but not now since the NERC Act came into force.
Andrew
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scut44
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject:
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Thats seems to be your & others problem,
the lack of understanding of Scottish law!
You need to look closer at 'Pedestrianism & Vehicles' in the Scottish terms/meaning that are relevant in this subject.
Road & Highway do not mean the same thing is Scottish law as English law,
well not the same as Public Road, Public Highway, or Adopted Road,
Public Path, etc.
Its not Traffic acts that apply here in this matter.
as i have said previously, good luck with it.
Scottish Law is on your side but only when you understand how it is worded.
You need a legally trained person in Scottish land & access law to explain/assist,
Not some knowledge from someones understanding of English law.
george
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terence
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject:
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I am quite happy its been blocked, the lifestyle wallies and the usual thoughtless minority did their best to ruin it for everyone.
organised groups , who can be accountable for their actions seem to be the way forward.
some people simply cannot be trusted to be respectful, and clean up after themselves.
a sad fact , but you only have to venture onto utube for an example of what im talking about
and George you can always rely on an english person to lecture you about scots law, its obligatory LOL
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Odometer: 103
Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject:
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| s44gtw wrote: | You need to look closer at 'Pedestrianism & Vehicles' in the Scottish terms/meaning that are relevant in this subject.
Road & Highway do not mean the same thing is Scottish law as English law, well not the same as Public Road, Public Highway, or Adopted Road,
Public Path, etc. Its not Traffic acts that apply here in this matter. |
I fully appreciate that definitions for Scotland and England & Wales are different in some cases. I think you have misread or misunderstood what I wrote, if you believe that I think otherwise.
A "road" in Scottish law means any way, of whatever kind, that has a public right of passage over it (see Section 151(1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984). If it doesn't have a public right of passage, e.g. because it is an estate track with no public rights then it is not, in law, a road at all. This definition originally came by email to me from the Scottish Office many years ago, following my query to them.
In England & Wales, the definition of "road" is different, because roads may have a public right of passage, in which case they are known as highways - or they may not, in which case they are a private road. In England & Wales, highway authorities usually have a duty to maintain public rights of way - but that is rare in Scotland other than in urban areas (usually footpaths).
Adopted Roads are simply those roads that are maintained at public expense. In Scotland, these are listed on the "List of Roads" and are pretty much all covered in tarmac. Indeed, that is usually a condition for adoption. In England & Wales, these are shown on the "List of Streets" held by highway authorities. The "List of Streets" for most highway authorities also contains unsealed roads - often referred to as county roads, UCRs or UUCRs. They are sometimes also referred to as ORPAs (Other Route with Public Access), because that is how they are shown on Ordnance Survery maps.
Regards
Andrew
Last edited by andrewk on Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:12 am; edited 4 times in total |
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Odometer: 103
Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:47 pm Post subject:
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| terence wrote: | I am quite happy its been blocked, the lifestyle wallies and the usual thoughtless minority did their best to ruin it for everyone.
organised groups , who can be accountable for their actions seem to be the way forward.
some people simply cannot be trusted to be respectful, and clean up after themselves. |
If it isn't a proven public right of way for vehicles then neither individuals nor organised groups will be able to drive along it, without permission from the landowner.
I agree with your sentiment about "lifestyle wallies" and others who are not respectful towards precious resources. This is an even bigger problem in England & Wales (because there are many more VRoW - and probably many more wallies too) than it is in Scotland.
Andrew
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scut44
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:03 am Post subject:
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'The Scottish Office' is in Scotland/Edinburgh,
but its a department of the UK government & knows 'jack 5h!t' of any importance in Scotland.
Civil Servants serving their own needs. 
Maybe ask the present Scottish Government.
Or your local MSP,
but thats no use if you dont live in Scotland & you are wasting your time asking a Westminister MP.
If you want to cross the pass by vehicle you only had to ask nicely of the right person/s & your wish would probably have been granted.
(obviously previously we never needed to, & since it wasnt a Toll Road the numbers driving across it werent recorded)
Its just good manners 'now',when damage can be done to other peoples property.
After all we are almost in 2011.
Right weather/ground/river conditions to reduce possible damage & people are often there in their vehicles.
The local people who have any interest dont object to the closure of the Route.
If they did something would be done.
Still dont understand why someone that doesnt come from or live in the area should get het up about Scotlands treatment of rights of way.
Been twice across the whole route since this thread restarted & really cant see why you havnt made more effort to drive it.
 Need to get your ar5e into action i think.
'Heads for thinking, feet for dancing'
Now Glen Tilt is a very special place but doubt you will be driving there without paying.
have fun, see you on the Pass sometime.
george
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Odometer: 103
Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject:
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| s44gtw wrote: | | If you want to cross the pass by vehicle you only had to ask nicely of the right person/s & your wish would probably have been granted. (obviously previously we never needed to, & since it wasnt a Toll Road the numbers driving across it werent recorded) |
Public rights exist for the benefit of the whole of the public - without folks having to ask anyone. You seem quite happy that what was once regarded by most as a public right, now no longer is usable as such. If everyone took that view, there would be no public rights of way anywhere.
Andrew
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Odometer: 103
Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject:
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| s44gtw wrote: | 'The Scottish Office' is in Scotland/Edinburgh,
but its a department of the UK government & knows 'jack 5h!t' of any importance in Scotland. |
You may have missed my implication, but I was talking about BEFORE the Scottish government existed. It doesn't really matter anyway, as the relevant definitions are in Section 151(1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.
Andrew
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scut44
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject:
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You are missing many points but thats my fault.
Before Scotland had its own Government the 'Scottish Office'
still knew very little about Scotland.
It wasnt called the 'Office for the good of Scotland', sadly.
Must be remembered there was 18 years of a Conservative UK Government, before the UK Labour Government 13 years ago.
Almost the whole of Scotland is a 'right of way.' Was & still is.
What you want is a 'Vehicular rights of way' protected for a use it was never intended for or that can possibly never be sustained.
Thats where you need to get things sorted out,
I am sure that the local or native people that it really should concern know their attitude to their area & laws.
I dont see lots of action being taken by Scottish people to change things.
Lazy bunch we are, or maybe its because better the devil you know.
george
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
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Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject:
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| s44gtw wrote: | | Almost the whole of Scotland is a 'right of way.' |
Do explain ..........
Andrew
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scut44
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject:
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We have a 'Right to Roam', & so do visitors.
It just doesnt include always being able to do it in Motorised Transport.
& Scotlands nicer for it IMO
& people are surprisingly helpful if you need to use motorised vehicular transport to get someplace because of various reasons.
So sometimes you need to suck it up & get on shanks pony,
not like your life depends on doing it by car is it??
george
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pdro
Gate Opener
Joined: 15 Jun 2011
Odometer: 1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject:
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The thread that never dies!
So whats the staus of the the pass these days?
Anyone know how a club could formally arrange access for a day?
Thanks
Paul.
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scut44
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:22 am Post subject:
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Still there & 'Yes.'
Welcome to the forum.
george
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GrahamC
Gate Opener
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Odometer: 1
Location: Glasgow
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | If it isn't a proven public right of way for vehicles then neither individuals nor organised groups will be able to drive along it, without permission from the landowner. |
Just spotted this discussion and have read with interest. I quite fancy driving the road and wondered whether anybody knows whether it is open or whether it is still stopped up.
Just FYI the statement above is wrong although only subtly so. The right of way is established by use not by proof of use. The import of that is that you may use it without proving it, unless you are challenged in a court of law. If you fail to prove it then you will, of course, have committed an offence since you used the route with no right to do so.
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andrewk
Just got MTs
Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Odometer: 103
Location: Oldham
2005 Nissan patrol
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:34 am Post subject:
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| GrahamC wrote: | | Just spotted this discussion and have read with interest. I quite fancy driving the road and wondered whether anybody knows whether it is open or whether it is still stopped up. |
My betting is that the obstructions are still in place. I think we'd have heard were it otherwise.
| Quote: | | Just FYI the statement above is wrong although only subtly so. The right of way is established by use not by proof of use. The import of that is that you may use it without proving it, unless you are challenged in a court of law. If you fail to prove it then you will, of course, have committed an offence since you used the route with no right to do so. |
I think I'd agree with what you say, providing you replace "may use" (which implies permission) with "can get away with using". Practically, though, there are no publicly available significant records of usage - so it is hardly likely to be possible to prove in court that a public right exists.
Andrew
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