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More on my Edwardian Alldays & Onions
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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will you be taking it to Clog this weekend then?

g.

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** GED **
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser



PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

may as well.




its officially more reliable than a landrover
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, if the weather is nice on Saturday, I might just do that

Well reminded

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RichardD
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weather looks good and it's 25 miles or an hours drive.

I'll aim for lunchtime. Is the camp at the way in?

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Restoration season begins.

This evening I removed the gearbox which was surprisingly easy; remove propshaft, layshaft, 4 mounting bolts and some brake rods and it dropped down onto a strategically placed bench.

Upon opening the grease looked suspiciously metallic and there is serious wear on 3rd gear which , to be fair, I knew about but having covered only 700 miles or so since I slopped in the semi fluid grease its of some concern. I was able, with assistance, to see that there is not only visible wear to the gears but there is slack between the gears themselves not found in 1st or reverse. Again not a surprise but good to know I have some comparison.

Research into gearbox restoration will commence tomorrow and I suspect this will cost the same as the engine! I will leave the steering until I have an idea of cost.
Photos to follow.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm sat with my morning cuppa comparing the photos of the gearbox I took 7 years ago (exactly 7 years ago - to the week!) with the ones I took last night and I'm pretty comfortable that whilst in good nick for over 100 years old 3rd gear is even more wrecked both on the ends (where it wears changing gear) and on the meshing face - there is quite a lot of slop. 1st and 2nd are worn but not anything as bad as 3rd and 4th and reverse are fine.

Photos ...

3rd gear in 2007


3rd gear in 2014, 1200 miles later



I'm not sure the grease should be quite so glittery Embarassed

I'm guessing that 1st & 2nd are within serviceable limits but 3rd is in desperate need of being replaced.

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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe your problem is the grease...

With oil the metal particles would sink to the bottom of the box - grease will hold the particles pushing them through the gears again and again accelerating the wear...
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good point well presented.

Opinions vary on whether it is better use heavy monograde oil (250+) or semi fluid grease. I took advice originally after I found the gearbox had ep90 in it which did not feel right. The addition of SFG made the gearbox work properly but 3rd gear always was horrible.

Veteran cars are not driven like modern cars; you drive in the correct gear for the speed you want to be doing which, oddly, often means changing down a gear before you reach the hill. If you try to pick up speed to get as far up the hill as you can before changing down, you then run the risk of too slow a gear change and loosing far more speed and having to slow right down and then climb up again. As a result 3rd gear has been the most used and changed into thus the increased wear.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With gearbox delivered to the specialist who charged me 2 hours labour to dismantle it despite it taking him all afternoon ("we were so fascinated nothing else got done that day") I found a proper machine shop with a host of 80+ year old machines who will make 2 new gears for 3rd gear, a new pivot pin for the output shaft UJ, reface the gear selector forks and skim the transmission brake. To say this guy is with the programme is an understatement, although ages with me he is properly old fashioned in his engineering work ethic and I'm delighted to have found him.

For those interested ... http://www.forrestprecisioneng.com/

I had a guided tour of the place and it was fascinating. During the hour and a half Scott spent with me I mentioned the problem with the steering so he showed me how they can pretty much make anything that does not need cast. Suitably enthused I came home and remove the steering box and was delighted to find that not only does it have A&O stamped on it ( not that clearly but it is there) but the box is 100% tight, it was the pitman arm which was very loose.

I am pretty sure that the arm is not original to the box and someone had left out the woodruff key AND used a clamping bolt that was only 2/3 the right diameter. As a result there was almost 1/4 turn play at the steering wheel. This led to a horrible driving experience and on roads with varying camber and unnerving rolling motion almost like the car was swimming! A new key and a correctly sized pin will sort this, and cheaply.

So, by Xmas, I will have a fully rebuilt gearbox, oil tight(ish) with all new bearings and a sorted steering box all ready to paint and fit as appropriate. I'll also get around to cleaning the chassis subframe and repainting in black and possibly make new brake rods and finally get all the remaining orange removed.

With the gearbox and steering costing about 2/3 what I had budgeted I can now also afford to get new rear spring leafs made and fitted which will relive the bottoming out issue.

Next year is looking to be a fantastic year for driving with a properly sorted engine, quiet gearbox and precise steering making for a nice driving experience.

I feel rather satisfied. Photos to follow.

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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really is a labour of love with that car and it is getting better as you go along. Can you get a set of blue lights for it?

G

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure blue lights would match the paintwork Laughing

I've been given some key steel and a new bolt and now all I need to do is spend a few hours fettling to get the steering slop sorted. All very good fun.

Some gearbox photos



the front of the box


and the rear



onto which the brake drum/output UJ assembly fits

Note: the toothed wheel is the sprag brake. A peg engages with this to prevent roll back on hill starts!

The pegs holding the brake shoes are rather worn - and being replaced


3rd gears ... rather worn on the ends but is the wear on the meshing face which made the noise


The selector forks are also worn and will be refaced


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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3372
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd expect the noise to be the working face of the tooth where it is damaged. The missing/rough metal stops the smooth transition from one tooth to another.
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and 2015 brings a pile of repaired and remade parts ....

Here's where I am (photos to follow)

Gearbox dismantled
- new gears for 3rd & 3rd/4th
- gear selector forks refaced
- transmission brake drum skimmed
- new bearings and seals
- brake shoes re-drilled to square them up and new mounting pins made to suit
- propshaft and slip joint into gearbox skimmed and refaced to remove as much slop as possible

Steering column and box
- paint stripped to find A&O markings and original green paint
- new key steel to properly fit pitman arm which removed all the extra play in steering (now 2.5" rather than 12")
- steering box and control arms painted in green to match rest of car
-new mounting bolts made so column is now solidly mounted.

Steering mounted ignition and throttle controls
- tubes removed, straightened and trued
- refitted ready for complete reassembly

Next I will be getting the gearbox reassembled and then I'll refit it which will allow me to see how much material I can have put onto the transmission brake shoes as well as redesign the linkage system so there is no 'stretch' in any of the joints.

In the meantime I've, hopefully, sorted the leaking fuel tap with a bit of polishing of the mating surface and a few other bits and bobs.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:

In the meantime I've, hopefully, sorted the leaking fuel tap with a bit of polishing of the mating surface and a few other bits and bobs.


So I go to speak to the place I got the fuel tap from and they tell me the problem is the amount of ethanol in petrol causing degradation in the brass tap and most taps now only last a year or 2 at most Shocked

It seems I've been very lucky that the float bowl is not susceptible to ethanol rot and that I've emptied it before laying it up for more than a few weeks.

More research finds a range of additives including Millers EPS which is tested and approved by The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs. This is not a cheap fix, at almost 13p per litre of fuel treated but when compared to the cost of replacing the carb or parts or having irreplaceable parts made it is cheap.

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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
This is not a cheap fix, at almost 13p per litre of fuel treated but when compared to the cost of replacing the carb or parts or having irreplaceable parts made it is cheap.


It's not as if you are putting vast quantities of petrol through it either are you.

g.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a full season of driving (after engine gearbox and steering fixing) I'm expecting to do as much as 1,000 miles. At 15mpg I'll use roughly 300 litres of unleaded costing me ~£40 in additive.

So, not too much when a fuel tap alone is £35 Cool

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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a lot for the smiles it will give you.

G.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking forward to that first sunny day when I drive it out without serious drivetrain backlash, steering that does what you expect and 3rd gear that is quiet as a mouse.

Already got 2 wedding bookings for late summer and a possible film role .... not quite ker-ching but certainly covers the running costs.

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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
I'm looking forward to that first sunny day when I drive it out without serious drivetrain backlash, steering that does what you expect and 3rd gear that is quiet as a mouse.

Already got 2 wedding bookings for late summer and a possible film role .... not quite ker-ching but certainly covers the running costs.




Cor...... stop waffling and POST PICTURES!!!!!!!




Laughing
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're on my camera which I left at home!
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photo time

Old v New : 3rd/4th gear






The fixed part of 3rd gear - note the meshing nose of the new one has been rounded before case hardening (they did both sides by mistake!)



Spot the wear pattern!


Both of the old v new



re-faced selector forks


New transmission brake drum mounting pin



Skimmed drum


Here you can see how material had to be removed to try to even it up

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new transmission brake shoe mounting pins have arrived and the sorted UJ and propshaft slip joint will be ready on Monday.

That's next week's evenings sorted

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Winnet
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Odometer: 14725
Location: Aberdeen


1985 Land Rover

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is all going to make a difference.

G.

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** GED **
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser



PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

look on the bright side.


its now in better nick than your 110......
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny Ged Funny



Richard - what do you do with your old parts - wondered if there'd be an interest in you displaying them at shows?
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ged, if I'd spent as much on ANY car .......

I throw nothing away, not even odd nuts and clearly rubbish bits of metal just in case they might be of research interest.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rear springs ...

I knew they were weak but not that they were completely shagged. The front of the car sits at 57cm chassis height (bottom of chassis to ground) but the rear, which should be higher, is at 54cm. Even after lifting the rear off the ground and setting it back down the ride height was 56cm and dropped to 54cm within about 5 minutes.

So, I bought 4 budget £3.99 bathroom scales from Argos and used three of them with a big thick plank on the top a wheel at a time to find the corner weights and therefore the total axle weight and then, once the springs had been removed, the unsprung weight. This was done with me in the driving seat and the car empty but ready to roll (sort of). Possibly the most complicated way of finding out that I need to go on a diet!

Corner weights (kg)
Without driver
Rear o/s 292
Rear n/s 300

front o/s 193
front n/s 218

total rear 592
total front 411

Total 1003 kg

With driver
Rear o/s 348
Rear n/s 334

front o/s 209
front n/s 238

total rear 682
total front 447

Total 1109 kg

The total without driver (ie the load on a trailer) has the car road ready but without fuel, oil or coolant so add ~40kg for that and the car actually weighs ~1150kg which is tad more than the 700kg the coachbuilder thought!

Camber heights with the chassis ride height set at 57cm ie the chassis remains level. I've done this so the car looks right when sat.

rear o/s 80mm
rear n/s 86mm

The axle (still connnected by propshaft and panhard rod) is 126kg, 60kg o/s & 66kg n/s.

New springs will further improve the driving experience!

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On another subject ...
We got the gearbox dropped in, which was dead easy, and I started to make a new output UJ leather oil seal only to discover that the fixing pin which goes through the UJ/drum assembly, locked up the UJ. After much faffing around I spotted that the nut on the gearbox output shaft's split pin was bent over the end of the shaft rather than round the nut and was fouling. I moved that and it was suddenly a lot freer but not perfect.

For some odd reason the new UJ pin would be fine one way but move it by 90deg and it would jam. Luckily it only needs 35deg of movement so it was duly fettled and fitted and all reassembled.

I'm investing in all new bolts/nuts for the clutch release and shaft flanges as well as suspension bolts and once they arrive I'll have a nice evening's reassembly and then it'll all be done barring the adjustments apart for the trans brake shoes which need relining but that cant be done until everything else is in place and I can measure the lining thickness required.

The re-assembly list:

gearbox input shaft flange - refit
clutch release/engine to gearbox prop - refit
steering control assembly clamp - paint, refit with new leather oil/grease seal
timing control arm - refit and adjust
hand throttle control arm - refit and adjust
foot board - refit
oil pressure gauge - refit
transmission brake control rods - refit then redesign and fettle

rear springs - refit the new ones

It's a short list and about a day's work and the car will be ready bar final fettling by the end of Feb

Happy days

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been pottering away and so far I've got the gearbox installed with the rear prop UJ and slip joint working perfectly which is a joy. I started to fit the prop/clutch release mechanism (which joins engine to gearbox) only to find that it no longer lines up properly! I suspect that all the new bearing and bushes have tightened things up a tad Cool so the engine will need to be 'shimmed up' by a couple of mm. This will prevent wear, reduce vibration and noise.

The new rear springs will be ready later next week and will be stronger yet more pliable than the knackered, 30 year old ones I've taken off.

The big jobs are all done now and I'm down to refitting ancillaries and fettling.

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night was momentous.

I had finally found the right size and length of bolts for the spring mounting plates (U bolt type things) and had got the springs into place with some difficulty given they are thicker, stronger and have a greater camber (the 'height' of the spring).

First I looked at the steering mounted controls and after much head scratching they bolted up perfectly - all the effort in straightening and 're-rounding' tubes and rods was well worth it.

It took about 15 minutes to get the springs bolted into place and I was on the final fitting of floor plates and then checking front to back for things I'd forgotten. It was then I hit a snag - the floor panel wouldn't fit back in! I knew the linages would be in slightly different places after relining and adjusting but it seemed that one reason the transmission brake didn't work well was it was jamming against the underneath of the floor.

This called for joinery work which is not, as my woodworking friends will confirm, my strongest skill set. Still, how badly wrong could I get it? Actually it was clear where the arm had been hitting the floor so I put the floor into place as best I could then drilled a hole which was almost, but not quite, totally in the wrong place Rolling Eyes

Out with the floor and more holes drilled then all joined up with the jigsaw with the bent blade and re-fitted. Close. Really close. Just a wee extension and some judicious chamfering with a chisel and it was done. Not exactly pretty but it will be covered by the floor matting and its only a bit of shonky plywood which needs to be replaced with some nice pine boards in any case.

So that's it. Apart from normal Spring starting and fettling the car is done, complete, restored. Yes, I said complete and finished. Now I only have to keep it maintained ... once I've fitted the sprag brake I've been planning to fit for 6 years, the leather side plates to fill the gaps between running board and chassis, remade the front spring hangers in a more accurate style, the new front springs, adjusted the tonneau cover to keep the back weather tight when no one is sat there, find and fit better accessories ..... Laughing Laughing

Amazingly, with several weeks to spare before the first event of the year at Beamish where I will have 3 days of pottering round the site to get starting, running and adjusting done. Here's a list of the events I'm booked into so far and if you're there please come and find me and say hello.

Beamish Northern Steam Fair 10th-12th April (semi static)
Dumfries VCC weekend 16th-17th May (rally)
Strathmore Transport Extravaganza at Glamis Castle 11th-12th July (static)
Biggar Albion Rally August tbc (rally am, static pm)
3 Lochs Classic Rhu August tbc (rally with static display before and after)
VCC Scottish Main event Elgin Sept 20th-25th (rally)

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