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More on my Edwardian Alldays & Onions
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: More on my Edwardian Alldays & Onions Reply with quote

This is more of an excuse to host some photos, however my A&O is currently having a new body made. I am barred from visiting until there is something to see but in the meantime here's how it looked before and also the sketched design for the new body.







Included in the rebuild is replacing the rear springs for longer, stronger items, making new rear dumb irons and shackles and sourcing/making a new scuttle mounted tank.

More pics as soon as they are available.

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samwise
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i forgot you had this little gem. in the drawings it looks like you are going for rear seats as well, am i correct?
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. The seatbelt laws prevent anyone aged 3 - 12 (or 14 can't remember) to be carried in a front seat without an approved seatbelt. Under 3 they must be in a child seat and over 14 they are deemed to be responsible for the decision (I suppose). There is no requirement for rear seatbelts in cars not originally fitted with them.

The only way I can carry my own kids in the car legally is by fitting rear seats. It also increases the value by about 30% and looks much prettier.

The current timescale is for it to be ready for the end of August. Next year we might look at a windscreen!

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absquatulation
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than look at a windscreen, shouldn't you look through a windscreen.
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absquatulation
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this going to end up as something like my grandfathers axe? My father replaced the shaft and I replaced the head.

What part of this is going to still be a 1903 car.

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="absquatulation"What part of this is going to still be a 1903 car.[/quote]

None of it - it's a c1912 car. The important bits are all 1912/13. The chassis and bodies of the time were regarded almost as service items and according to the VCC you need 6 or 7 out of 10 'points' for it to be dated. The original [parts on mine are:

radiator
steering
brakes
controls
engine
gearbox
front axle
rear axle and diff gears

Cars were mostly made as rolling chassis for the new owner to fit as body as they saw fit. Besides I don't care what the rivet counters say, this is a car for me to enjoy.

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Roger
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a look in my encyclopedia on motorcars and there it was:

"Alldays and Onions Pneumatic Engineering Co. Ltd" of Birmingham.

They were in business from 1898 - 1918.

They acquired the Enfield Autocar Co. in 1908.

Became the Enfield - Allday Motor Co. of Sparkbrook, Birmingham in 1919 and went out of business in 1925.

The cars from this later company were apparently very expensive and only about a hundred were ever made.

Roger
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the_undertaker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard@Difflock wrote:
[quote="absquatulation"What part of this is going to still be a 1903 car.


Besides I don't care what the rivet counters say, this is a car for me to enjoy.[/quote]

hear hear to that!!! Applause Applause

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Oshodisa
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: More on my Edwardian Alldays & Onions Reply with quote

Richard@Difflock wrote:





Now you either trust your hand brake or you don't...

Are you just being indecisive with that itsy bit of wood?

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jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite what you said last time I commented, it does have the best approach and departure angles you could wish for.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard@Difflock wrote:
Yes. The seatbelt laws prevent anyone aged 3 - 12 (or 14 can't remember) to be carried in a front seat without an approved seatbelt. Under 3 they must be in a child seat and over 14 they are deemed to be responsible for the decision (I suppose). There is no requirement for rear seatbelts in cars not originally fitted with them.

The only way I can carry my own kids in the car legally is by fitting rear seats. It also increases the value by about 30% and looks much prettier.



But you've not got front seats fitted.

That's a sofa!
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me cover the points 1 by 1.

It is less of a car and more of a chesterfield sofa on wheels.

The wood was there to stop it rolling (on the flat) because it doesn't have a hand brake as we know it. The hand brake is the main brake operated by hand and works on the rear wheels only. No I don't trust it!


Mssrs Alldays and Onions each started making bellows and associated foundry items in c1652 merging in hte early 1800s. They, like many others, branched into bicycles, cyclecars, quadricycles, motorcycles and finally motorcars in ~1904. Production varied but essentially they ceased production of cars during WW1 continuing with assembly only until, some say, 1923. Manufacture of Charabancs and commercial vehicles continued until 1925 when the business finally collapsed. Included in the Alldays empire was Enfield (rifles, motorbikes). The main business continued manufacturing and today is owned by Siemens and is called Alldays Peacock and makes ventialtion systems for blast furnaces. It is one of the world's oldest continually incorporated bodies.

As for numbers, it is estimated that as many as 20,000 cars were made between 1904 and 1915 in single, twin and 4 cylinder varieties however fewer than 20 are known to remain as complete running cars. The least numerous being the 4 cylinder models (made from ~1907 -15) of which there are only 4 known. Mine is probably a Colonial model (sold to SA and Aus/NZ) and is assembled from parts of at least different vehicles all of the 1912/1913 period. The chassis is modern C channel steel and once the new body is made, will be the only part that is not either original, period or a faithful facsimile.

It is fun but fiendishly difficult to drive.

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rovermanv8
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question

I thought this was going to be about a supermarket!
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Popped down to Barnard Castle today to see how things are progressing and as you can see from the photos it is starting to take shape. Admittedly you need to fill in the ribs in your imagination but you can see how much better balanced it looks with a full body on it. We're going to fit a windscreen as well for aesthetic and practical reasons and have to decide on what shade of blue/green will replace the metallic shade which was not 'period'.

I have to source the windscreen parts ready for 'adapting' and find a spare Sankey military wheel (aka Bullnoe Morris wheel). The tank I sourced is precisely the right shape and size as is the engine kill switch (both are period with plenty of patina) and now all the controls that were on that nasty bracket on the steering column will be housed under the overhang on the driver's seat box.

What you cannot yet see is that the front passenger seat will swing away outwards leaving the seat support bar for people to clamber over. We could remove this but it would make the body far flimsier. There is lots of storage under the rear seat for picnics and rugs and space under the seat box for spare oil, fuel and water cans.

What is great is now I can get at all the mechanical parts from the top as well and repair the rather dodgy assembly and part reproduction done 25 years ago. The source of the shudder on take off is that lack of clutch friction material, the foot brake cannot be adjusted because of massive play in one of the rod pinions/hinge so I have my winter jobs already lined up. None are massive and fall into the "potter at it" category.

It's still not likely to be ready before October so I've got plenty of time to build it's new home All in all I am very very pleased with work so far and am looking forward to seeing it again in August. Dick Francis (the man doing the work - featured in the photos) was rather amused when I patted the car when I arrive and said goodbye. The chap with the £1,000,000 Miura that is in for a full resto doesn't even do that!











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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last picture catches an idea of the new proportions




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bens_jeep
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's really rather special. I have a couple of 70s speedway and grasstrack bikes which I raced at the time and my son now rides in vintage classes... lots of fun

I have once seen an A&O motorcycle, a typical small 20s two-stroke lightweight with ( I think ) a 172cc Villiers engine and belt drive.

would I be right in thinking that the 'peacock' part of the name relates in some way to Beyer Peacock?
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next update:
About 6 weeks ago I was called and told about a very nasty (non work related) accident involving one of the coachbuilder's technicians which meant that work on the Alldays was going to be delayed. My current domestic problems meant that any delay was a good thing so we agreed to hold off for a while. Happily both my home life and the builder's work life have sorted themselves out so a lot of progress has been made.

From these photos you can now see how the whole car will look. The front passenger seat will either look like a jump seat or identical to the top of the driver's seat depending on aesthetics and will swing outwards to allow access to the rear seats.
We've (the royal 'we') managed to create a very useful wee cubby box under the driver's seat as well for a fuel can or 2 as the new, 100 year old, fuel tank is scuttle mounted and only holds about 15 litres.

Next month will see the frame finished and the aluminium panelling start followed by either upholstery or paint (or vice versa).

July and early August's photos







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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

August's photos







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johnmcc
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1994 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent. Nice bit of Ash there. It'll be a stunner.

My Dad once had a garage business where he specialised in coachwork. His biggest job was re-bodying a Rolls-Royce Shooting Brace from scratch. He bought all the materials, built the frame from Ash, clad it in fabric, wood, and steel sheet, handed it over to the owner . . . . and was never paid. He went broke. The semi-aristocratic and rich owner had a free rebuilt car. This was just after WW2, there was no such thing as a small claims court, and my Dad couldn't afford to go to law. Some things are better now than then!

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Nightbar
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1999 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good Richard. Looking good.

Although I am a bit worried about your definition as 'original brakes'!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its edwardian , itll have a basket full of peasant children on it to drop under the wheels to stop it. Laughing
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Herein find an approximate and general definition of the braking systems contemporarily available for motorvehicles.

Many methods had been tried over the centuries for inhibiting the forward motion of carriages and carts alike however given the significant weight, the limited propulsion and poor state of most road surfaces, a simple lever pressed against a wheel was considered sufficient with a small wooden wedge acting as a 'parking brake'. In the early years of the motor car consideration for slowing vehicles was very much secondary to making them go at all and very often the nearest portion of landscape would suffice.

As cars got faster, especially in the early 1900s, brakes were quickly developed as owners demanded a safe method to protect their investments. Reports of the day (from The Autocar) speak of performance and reliability rather than safety. Almost no mention is made of brakes and in fact the most popular cars including De Dion Bouton and Cadillacs had no brakes at all and depended on switching the engine off to slow down. From about 1903 onwards, I suppose, brakes were standard although limited and often still used the age old method of pressing a leather/wooden shoe against the [solid] tyre but as pneumatic tyres became standard things had to change. Even so 4 wheel braking was a long way off.

The next move was to create 'fake' wheels onto which the shoes could be pressed and some cars had slightly smaller wheels usually inboard of the road wheels with smooth metal surfaces onto which the shoe could be pressed. This in turn led to smaller wheels or drums with reciprocating externally mounted contracting shoes and, later, internal expanding shoes almost identical to 'modern' ones. The problem with all brakes of the time was the friction material being limited, the fixing to the shoes being inadequate and the exposure of the friction surfaces to contamination.

If we look at my c1913 car, there are 3 braking systems: rear axle expanding shoe drums, transmission contracting shoe drum and, finally, a Sprag which started as a rod lowered into the road to prevent rearwards motion when starting on hills which developed into a rod that drops onto a toothed wheel on the transmission brake! Each has it's own problems!

Sprag
As mentioned, the sprag started literally as a rod the dug into the road which caused so much damage that they were banned. Mine is a toothed wheel which is a little severe to engage - whiplash not optional! A rod is dropped to lie horizontally onto the top of the toothwheel so when you roll back it catches and holds you. As you drive off it clacks like crazy until you lift it up.

Transmission brakes
When I got the car these were very worn and had almost no braking performance as the adjusters had long seized. I was warned that as gearboxes always leaked and oil was thrown back from the engine the transmission brakes mostly made lots of noise (check), created lots of heat and went on fire easily as a result. EVERY veteran car carries at least 1 fire extinguisher for good reason.
With new friction material, new adjusters (but some rod actuators yet to replace) and a good clean mine work quite well but they put immense pressure on the gearbox so are used sparingly.

Rear brakes
Again this was an interesting learning. Driving down a big hill at 35mph for the first time, I tried to slow using the hand brake (side lever - not a handbrake) and nothing happened except some noise. I had noticed some oily residue but thought little of it until I got home and removed the drums (that took 3 days of thought - no Haynes manual) to find destroyed oil seals and dodgy bearings. Axle oil was being thrown into the drum on corners which was fouling the drums. a pleasant few hours of cleaning with petrol got the shoes sorted and another 3 days of puzzling to get the bearings off and new ones fitted (standard, £22 each and sealed) followed by making new oil seals from felt and leather (thank to DFS for old leather sofa swatches) and the problem was solved. On the next run I had to be careful not to lock the rear wheels up as this would strain the transmission too much.

Mostly we use engine braking and not going too fast that we can't stop soon enough - emergency stops involve steering into something solid away from people and jumping out!

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Nightbar
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1999 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most informative my good man, most informative.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More from my latest visit for a seat fitting:

The seat will be a lot more comfortable with upholstery but the driving position is rather good. When I was sat in the car another customer asked why I was sitting hunched forwards with a grimace on my face. I told him that the reason Edwardian photographs of cars showed a steely unsmiling driver was that they were either scared in anticipation of the forthcoming journey or were actually terrified whilst on the move!

The jump seat will now fold, be lifted and rotate to open to allow access to the rear seats. The side rail opens out to give a little more space if needed.

Colour
we are now looking at painting everything except the chassis/running gear. The body and wings will be Royal Blue with orange piping, the wheels and axles will be black and the chassis will remain the same orange colour.

What's left?
Ally panelling of the seat backs
Side panels in ply
foot board and new scuttle
paint and upholster

Timescale is about 2 more months. NOTE: the solid side board beside the panels will be cut back to form a nice curve from the seat squab down and forwards to join with the angled footboard as the sweep up to the scuttle.











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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More







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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yet more











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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote










Orange and blue do go .... As you can see from this trailer I spotted in a field round the corner.


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LandyAndy™
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice car.

Shame about the driver Rolling Eyes


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Roger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that's what Darth Vader looks like without the helmet.

Roger Wink Wink
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger wrote:
So that's what Darth Vader looks like without the helmet.

Roger Wink Wink


You just have to lower the tone, don't you Roger? Laughing Laughing Laughing Rolling Eyes

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