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hydrogen
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Cipher
Just got MTs


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Location: scotland, near kirriemuir


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

right i went one step further with my coffee jar Smile.

i got a bit of see through pipe and punched a hole in the lid of the jar and put the pipe in the hole, at 1st it sucked in a bit of water through the vac inlet, but i emptyed a bit of the water an vola it works, the car runs a bit lumpy and theres a bit of white smoke but thats normal i would think as it turns into water after its combusted in the cylinders, i didnt drive it but it seemed to rev well and it ran with the choke out just a few mm's.

tomorrow im going to make a bigger version of the jar and see if it works any better, then im going to take it for its 1st hydrodrive lol.

ill put some pics up after i get home tonight Smile.

Edit: sorry i wasnt able to get pictures up, but i also need to add that one of the knifes has partly disintegrated, it was the positive side i think, i swaped the wires over and more bubbles came from the positive side than the negative, is this good?


Last edited by Cipher on Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Damian
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a bit of a headache, so I haven't read all the posts previous to this. But I wanted to add that my father in law has build this and fitted it to his Citroen ZX 1.9 diesel. He phoned me today and told me he's getting 12 mpg more... and it goes quicker than ever!

He's in the process of making one for his 4.0ltr V8 Lexus!

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Cipher
Just got MTs


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Odometer: 131
Location: scotland, near kirriemuir


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that looks quite good, im assuming he just added it onto the air intake pipe?

my mates have a 1.6 renault 5 diesel and after ive done more testing im going to make one for them, they get about 60-65mpg as it is so maybe if i get it right and i manage to produce enough hydrogen im hoping to get that into the low 80's.

where would be the best place to add the hydrogen to the intake on my sj?

ive tryed taking the pipe off that goes into the carb and camcase from the filter but it didnt run right, so im thinking it might be better to cut a hole in the airfilter housing and add it there.

what do u guys think?
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chancer
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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1993 Jeep Cherokee

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cipher wrote:
Where would be the best place to add the hydrogen to the intake on my sj?


How about looking into an LPG feed system that's built to sit within a carb? That's designed to regularly feed gas into a carb, so why not use H2 instead of LPG?
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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cipher wrote:
ive tryed taking the pipe off that goes into the carb and camcase from the filter but it didnt run right


Crikey, have a care ... that sounds like you were hooked to the engine breather. You don't want to fill the crankcase with volatile gas mixure Shocked

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Cipher
Just got MTs


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nah sorry, i got a bit mixed up, its the pipe that goes into the carb that i took off and put the pipe onto, i put a bolt in the pipe that was left off, the hole in the carb has got a vacume, when i put my fonger over the hole it cuts out.
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rod_h
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Web site Reply with quote

check out this site
www.myhydrogen.co.uk
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:)
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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1995 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. They seem to have started in June 2008 and have just been going through an "introduction period".

They talk about "lean burn", which is a known way to improve fuel economy. They even sell a lambda adjuster to allow this to happen on ECU engines. However until recently running an engine away from the stoichiometric combustion ratio (14.7 for petrol) would damage the catalyst - which could be expensive. There is a lot of work being done to improve the catalysts and allow for lean burn, which also allows a higher compression ratio, both of which increase thermal efficiency.

All this is tried and tested, but what isn't clear is exactly how these improvements are made, because if the fuel/air ratio is changed that might account for any mpg improvement rather than the hydrogen.
--
Tim.

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Rossko
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Production 'lean burn' cars, like Hondas, only run lean under certain conditions, and exploit careful internal design of pistons/porting to localise air/fuel charges within the cylinders. Trying to run lean under full power can result in rapid destruction of pistons, never mind the cats!

None of that should happen with these add-on electrolysers, so I think the use of 'lean' is so much marketing guff.

cheers, Ross K

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Cipher
Just got MTs


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Location: scotland, near kirriemuir


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, ive modified my old coffee jar and put 2 massive ss plates in rather than the 2 knifes it started with.

ive also connected it to the breather hole in the airbox rather than the vac inlet and it seems to be going better, the pipe that was left has got a bit of doubled over cloth cliped over it so it dosent suck in any crud.

now back to the hydrogen, its still got the same problem as before with the positive side corroding and getting thinner everytime i use it, at the moment it looks like a small rat has chewed into it and taken a chunk out of it lol, i have been driving with the hydrogen kit running and it all seems well, after driving for a while it seemed to be creating more bubbles and the jar heated up a bit but it was still holdable with my hands, but the water that was in the jar to begin with has turned into a greenish coloured gunk but it still produces hydrogen, why and what is the gunk?
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Rossko
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do understand the cell makes oxygen as well as hydrogen, which will be quite keen to react with metals. A component of the sludge could be iron oxide, but that is red-brown as you'd expect (being rust)

What do you have in your water to make it conduct? If it were e.g. salt the sludge could be nickel chloride or something.

The heating will be due to the overvoltage; you only need 2-3V to run a water cell, so from a nominal 12v supply about 10V will be 'wasted' and emerge as heat in the usual voltsXamps way.

That's a thought actually; if you could reduce the voltage at the cell it might provoke less unwanted reactions in the stainless.

cheers, Ross K

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floyd fan
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The green gunk is probably due to impurities in the water, I guess you used tap water instead of de-ionised water. The water heating is normal, as said only a couple of volts are used the rest are wasted as heat. You could of course make six cells in series and use all the volts.
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terence
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

use rain water , the green is most likely copper from a domestic water pipe.

Laughing
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Cipher
Just got MTs


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Odometer: 131
Location: scotland, near kirriemuir


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have just came across some links on how to make and run a system, here they are.

http://www.mindstrain.com/

http://www.fuel-saver.org/Forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=15

the last one is a fourm dedicated to these hydrogen kits, so obviously some good advice to be had, also the 1st one has a video of one running and also some build plans Smile.
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Sooty Zooki
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Joined: 16 Nov 2003
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Location: Beverley, East Yorks



PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the most interresting thread on here in ages! Stumbled accross it last week, and have been reading up on it since.

Looking forward to having a play with this in the new year when I have a little more time.

Main concerns for automotive applications, especially 4x4, is how to make it work at stupid angles without loosing water from the cell or ingesting crap into it. Some more thought needed on the type of vessel the cells will sit in, how to stop the cells moving / detatching over very rough terrain when bounced hard. Slowly getting my head around some of it, but I am no chemist. Also do I go HHO or HHOO? As I understant it putting different configurations of positive and negative plates changes the oxygen contents of the gas which also influences performance and could prevent internal components from becoming brittle (forgotten the technical name) when running higher hydrogen contents (less oxygene). Given myself a headache the past few nights reading into this, but thanks for starting a fascinating thread.

PS: I am a beleiver!

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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooty Zooki wrote:
. Also do I go HHO or HHOO?


Schoolboy chemistry says you should get H2 and O2.
Proponents claim their particular version (special plates, magic ingredients, etc) can yield a proportion of H and O (free atoms) and perhaps some HO in addition to the usual molecular gases. Um, yeh.

Sooty Zooki wrote:
.... when running higher hydrogen contents (less oxygene).


While not everything in the world runs on common sense, in this case common sense says if we take water H2O and break it up you will always get the same proportion of H to O. Maybe 'special water' is needed, H3O? Or perhaps you could encourage the O to combine with something else and never leave the cell ... i.e. corrode your plates away instead Smile

cheers, Ross K

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:)
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1995 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Ross says above ^^.

Hydrogen exists naturally as a hydrogen molecule, made up of 2 hydrogen atoms - H2, likewise oxygen forms O2. You can get O3 - ozone, but two ozone molecules tend to break down into three oxygen molecules O2.
I think all this talk of HH and OO is just to add to the mystery of this being something a bit different. During electrolysis two water molecules form two H2 molecules and one O2 molecule.

Sooty Zooki wrote:
PS: I am a beleiver!

But why, when there is a counter argument backed up by science which says something is wrong!
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Tim.

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nivaman
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Joined: 24 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hydrogen does something to the burn< ie improves it.
Science states it takes more energy to produce HHO than it does burning it, my question is how is this known in the real world?.
An internal combustion engine is at best say 30% effeciant, this leaves a lot of room for improvment, if adding Hydrogen improves the process then surely that is a good thing?.

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Sooty Zooki
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have the chemistry knowledge to understand fully what what Rossko & : ) are explaining above, but I do understand that adding an extra ingredient to a combustion mix will improve / deteriorate it. I would not expect a "no change situation", and I rightly or wrongly lean towards the former. I also know that adding water spray to a combustion process has advantages which have been proven, but putting water in the fire does not make sense to me as far as I understand the science either...

I don't want to get into an argument about it because I don't know enough about it, I just think its very interesting, and I beleive the combustion process can be improved by just tweeking it a little which is all I think this does - I just don't think its about getting more energy out of something that you put into it. But then what do I know, I'm just a lorry driver!

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nivaman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern gasoline engines have an average efficiency of about 25 to 30% when used to power an automobile. In other words, of the total heat energy of gasoline, 70 to 75% is rejected (as heat) in the exhaust or consumed by the motor (friction, air turbulence, heat through the cylinder walls or cylinder head, and work used to turn engine equipment and appliances such as water and oil pumps and electrical generator), and only about 25% of energy moves the vehicle.
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Rossko
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooty Zooki wrote:
.... but I do understand that adding an extra ingredient to a combustion mix will improve / deteriorate it.


You're absolutely right, and I don't think anyone contests that. The root of the believer/sceptic split is about if the OVERALL yield is worth it. It costs energy (electricity) to generate the gases, the electricity is made by the engine using fuel to turn the alternator ....

If we convert fuel to engine rotation at 30% efficiency or so, and then convert rotation to electricity at 50% efficiency or so, we we would have to get a huge boost from the HOHO or whatever it is just to get the electric to create the stuff.

cheers, Ross K

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floyd fan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I've had mine fitted and working for a few weeks now. Normally i would get about 70 miles to my 20 quids worth of diesel, with the hydrogen I get about 118 miles to my 20 quid - thats a 50% improvement Surprised
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:)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

floyd fan wrote:
Well I've had mine fitted and working for a few weeks now. Normally i would get about 70 miles to my 20 quids worth of diesel, with the hydrogen I get about 118 miles to my 20 quid - thats a 50% improvement Surprised

What vehicle?

£20 buys 16.8litres @ 119ppl
So your figures say your consumption has gone from 19 MPG (awful for a diesel) to 32MPG, which is fair for a big vehicle diesel - but still less than my long term average from my 110 Land Rover.

But unless you take an average over a long time there are too many ways in which measuring errors can skew the result. How do you know that exactly 16.8 litres was used to cover those distances?
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rod_h
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me why I'm geting a brown scum on top of the water? I'm useing tap water and all stainless steel parts.
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YotaDave
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its probably something to do with impurities in the tap water. Try using distilled and ionized water (battery top up water).
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rod_h
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tks I'll give it a SPAM I was to continue to use tap water will the scum cause any problems. Also what amount of HHO litres/minute will be need to make any differacne on a 1600 eng.
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YotaDave
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That I dont know, Im sure someone else will be able to help.

I only know about water impurities and distilled/ionized water because I build and run watercooled PCs Smile.

Quick tip for a cheap supply of contaminant free water buy a dehumidifyer. The water it collect is free form contaminates as it is pulled form the air (so its distilled and de-ionized)! Also as an extra bonus run it in the garage and keep your car and tools dry, helps keep corrosion at bay! Very Happy

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rod_h
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any one doing any more with HHo gen
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THIS link was posted in the other hydrogen thread. According to a company which was originally supportive they now says it is a fraud, which is what some of us have been saying for a while.
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rod_h
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still may give it a go on a small scale and low cost
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