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SimonWH Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: Trailer wishlist
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We are looking at developing a new trailer suitable for off-road use. I've had the idea in my mind for a while but talking to various people about getting it made I thought it might make a viable commercial product.
So . . .
What do you think is necessary or desirable in a trailer?
Anything specific that you think it MUST have?
Any particular equipment that MUST be accommodated?
We are not looking at a trailer to compete with the Desert Wolf units which are primarily aimed at people undertaking lengthy expeditions.
My initial wishist:
• must be lightweight (easy enough to man-handle or dig out when stuck)
• durable enough for normal off-road use (not rock-crawling)
• easy on the eye rather than a steel box
• Able to carry bikes, kayaks and possibly a roof-tent
Most importantly it should cost a hell of a lot LESS than the £10k+ that Desert Wolf trailers cost!
Anything I've missed?
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YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject:
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I would say an option of NATO hitch fitments would would be good as it is the best offroad hitch system imho.
Track width the same as tow vehicle (would have to take an average 4x4 vehicle measurement) so it follows in the ruts?
Devising some way of changing the stud pattern so spare wheels could be used off the tow vehicle.
Some kind of modular system would be good so you buy the chassis and what ever bed/top to suit your purpose and they bolt on.
Just a few thoughts.
Ive been thinking of buying a Sankey and modifying it to suit my purpose so I am definitely interested in this.
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
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. Difflock Royalty
Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Odometer: 40007 Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast
2009 Land Rover 110 CSW
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject:
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Swiveling hitch and not too light. When off-road a lightweight trailer will bounce all over the place
__________________________________ Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook! |
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SimonWH Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject:
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My own checklist already ticks every item raised by BigDaveGrrr.
I've already found an axle manufacturer that can offer different hubs to suit customer requirements. I'll have to check if these will be user changeable, I'm sure they can be.
We are planning to get the chassis/axle/pintle setup right first then seeing what tubs can be offered on top. I've also found a couple of different hitch options including a double swivel.
Regarding the Sankeys, I have seen a product being developed for Sankey owners which is essentially a lid and gas-struts to convert a Sankey into something more usable and secure.
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VentureOverland Just got MTs
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 Odometer: 463 Location: Yorkshire, UK
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject:
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Most of the proper expedition style trailers in Australia use Springs and Dampers. Proper ones at that. Im talking Landrover sized equipment.
Also, it shouldnt be too lite. It needs weight to hold it on the ground, otherwise it will bounce all over once off the tarmac.
Defo agree about being able to accomodate the same wheels as the towing vehicle.
Brakes. Needs to be a braked trailer also.
Good heavy duty jockey wheel and possibly 4 levelling struts in each corner so that you can level it up for sleeping on.
Electrics... Third battery on the unit perhaps, linked into the vehicles split charge system. That would allow the fridge to be integral to the camping unit and would allow the vehicle to be disconnected from the vehicle and still have power for lights & fridge etc, whilst freeing up space inside the towing vehicle.
It needs to be short enough to be big enough, but not too small! Rear overhang needs to be limited such that your approach angle is not comprimised.
The list of desirables is endless!!
__________________________________ Best Regards,
Jon
VentureOverland
http://www.ventureoverland.com |
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SimonWH Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:31 pm Post subject:
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Onboard electrics with extra battery is added to the list!
The problem with going to big on the suspension is that the trailer gets heavier and heavier and looses storage space to accommodate the springs and shocks.
I'm initially looking at an axle similar to an indespesion unit. The weight bearing can be varied (up to two tons) and so can the ride height so the trailer can match a Defender with a 2" lift.
It won't be a fully blown expedition rig but will be able to endure rough treatment
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terence Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject:
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Hot and cold running water, external power sockets for accessories/ lights .
solar panel PV for charging or solar thermal for hot water.
toilet seat ...
roof tent .
totally demountable body to negate the need for two trailers when not in use as a camper...
lift up sides to act as as shelter the list is endless....
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aopoleyin Articulating
Joined: 27 Jun 2007 Odometer: 712 Location: Correze, France
1989 Jeep Cherokee
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject:
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Regarding suspension, without having experienced the difference between a trailer on "proper" suspension and one on trailer suspension, I think you'll have trouble believing it...
Got a selection of trailers here and towed many more, including nice Ifor Williams setups and similar.
Our "normal" trailer is a sturdy homebuilt one on indespension units, generally tows well.
However, I also have a box trailer built from the rear of a Renault 4 van, using the R4 suspension and shocks.
The difference is like night and day.
Anything else, you feel every pothole, every change in the road surface, even with a damped hitch.
The R4 trailer, you have to check the mirrors to make sure it's still there, you literally can't feel that it's behind you (except the weight when loaded). Proper shocks and springs make a huge difference even on a good road. I hesitate to take our normal trailer much over 20km/h on tracks, the R4 trailer I'll happily tow as fast as I'd go without a trailer.
The difference isn't just what you'll feel in the towing vehicle, but what the contents of the trailer will be experiencing.
__________________________________ 1989 Renault XJ Cherokee TD |
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terence Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject:
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my homebrew trailer started life as a caravan, as well as having overun brakes and a jockey wheel it has springs and dampers too..
its a real different towing experience...
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samwise Off-Road Guru
Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Odometer: 1359 Location: hull east yorkshire/bournemouth dorset
1993 Suzuki Samurai
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Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject:
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will point my brother towards this thread as he is currently in the hands of a sankey which he intends to prepare for overland travel. it's the type with the triangle shaped box on top, used to be an old military radio trailer.
__________________________________ PLEASE VISIT:- www.nocar-noproblem.blogspot.com
Two thousand years ago, a Roman Senator suggested that
all slaves wear white armbands to better identify them.
"No," said a wiser Senator,
"If they see how many of them there are, they may revolt." |
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TheClunk Off-Road Guru
Joined: 26 Jan 2009 Odometer: 1159 Location: Chippenham
1997 Vauxhall Frontera
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:31 am Post subject:
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Don't know about off road trailers, but have been towing trailers on road for years.
My own personal preferences for a trailer are:
Height: Must be high enough to see in the inside rear view mirror. My smallest trailer cannot be seen, and reversing it is a pain because....
Width: Must be wide enough to see in mirrors when reversing. My smallest trailer is 8 inches each side narrower than my Vitara. By the time you see it, it is too late to screw it round.
Length. Again for reversing. The longer the trailer is from hitch to axle, the better. Shorter trailers are harder to reverse than longer ones.
Stability: I like my trailers to be as wide as possible. They seem to hold the road better. It was suggested to me, that the smaller trailers, like the Halfords ones, get caught in the turbulence behind the vehicle, and get thrown about. The wider ones protrude outside the 'slipstream' and are held stable by their own slipstream.
What I would like to see is progressive or adjustable suspension. None of my trailers have either. When they are empty, the suspension does not work, as it lacks the weight to make it compress. On all my trailers, I take a mini compressor with me. When empty, I drop tyre pressure to 10psi. This eliminates most of the bounce.
For heavy and high trailers, I would recommend a snake bar for road use.
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DavidLovejoy Just got MTs
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Odometer: 337 Location: Somerset
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject:
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The aussies do a rather nice off road hitch that uses a 50mm ball but is better off road and on raod than a NATO hitch - looks like a gimble.
Max weight all up 700kgs
Should be for fuel/water storage as prime use
Capable of self recovery - ie winch of some sort and some form of CO2 or compressor to fit an air jack to
CE approved chassis and brakes
needs to look cheap/bland/not worth stealing
Powered jockey wheel on balloon tyre a'la caravan style
Water proof/true dry storage
steel and alloy - NO GRP
Capable of carrying it's own spare tyre/tyres
Superb ground clearence but very low CofG
Same track as a tow vehicle but either without sticky outy wheel arches or must have runners
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expat69 Just got MTs
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 Odometer: 270 Location: Clermont-Ferrand, France
2003 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:57 am Post subject:
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Simon,
do you remember the off road trailers we saw at the motoshow ?
they were very light.
could be a starting point.
My wish list for maintenance purpose:
Same wheels/tyres than the vehicle
Same shocks
Same track width
if you have the trailer mechnical bits simalar to your truck, it means that you carry less spares.
__________________________________ '04 Volvo XC90
'97 Discovery 300tdi auto "R&B" |
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smokey Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Odometer: 320 Location: Oldham
2005 Land Rover Defender
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject:
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Simon,
Have a look on this american forum:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42
You should find all you need there! There are some really good build threads, excellent general and specific trailer advice and some really good ideas, if you can get round the americanisms...
Hopefully sometime this year I will be moving again, to somewhere where I can have a workshop space again. All being well I'll be rebuilding my trailer for this exact use. It'll be later on in the year though but I promise to post a build thread then.
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Nathaniel Difflock Royalty
Joined: 13 May 2003 Odometer: 17901 Location: North, North Yorkshire
1979 Suzuki LJ
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:33 am Post subject:
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After towing for thousands of miles on rough roads -
My advice is big tyres and soft well damped suspension.
Otherwise the whole contraption will be impossible to tow at any kind of speed off tarmac and will shake itself to bits.
The nearly new Bateson trailers I used to tow lightly loaded over rough roads showed signs of this fairly quickly - spare wheel brackets would fracture and fall off, the box sections holding the ramps upright would shear in half and the ramp actually fractured on one....
A Disco rear axle with the internals removed would be good, you could use the discs and calipers for tough brakes....
But it wouldn't be strictly legal with no auto reverse on the brakes....
__________________________________ Nat
If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out |
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trailer guy Articulating
Joined: 19 Feb 2009 Odometer: 787 Location: Hampshire
1994 Land Rover 110
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: wish list
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I run a depot of a national trailer co. We manufacture running gear (to spec) amongst other things. I've also been thinking of making a versatile on/off road trailer recently - am new to the 4x4 scene - and would be happy to help with ideas. You'd want the trailer to have the same wheel base as the 4x4, so it 'follows' any route you cut, instead of having to make it's own tracks - lessens strain on vehicle and trailer.
__________________________________ www.compasstrailers.com |
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teemu Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 May 2008 Odometer: 73 Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:15 am Post subject:
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OT maybe, but i did mine by modifying old Heinemann's beetle picnick-trailer
Originally tyres were less than 10" or something like that..
So the orig. "axle" and wheels off, and new tube as a axle with fitted RRC
hub's in it. Had to build new chassis to clamb leaf on, and better capacity.
Here's few pic's of my project to help understand what was i thinking
http://forums.offipalsta.com/album.php?u=3207
(lowest album at the page)
Track width is same as my 110, so it follows nicely in snow, mud...
It is still under cons. the shaft(pole) should be longer.
Need's humor while reversing that rig
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SimonWH Guest
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:05 am Post subject:
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I love that Karry Trailer, a very similar size to what I'm designing for myself. Much to most people's disgust I only want a small trailer. 1.5m x 1.5m x 600mm deep or thereabouts.
If I have a bigger unit I'll just end up carting more junk. It only needs to carry a small amount of equipment and provide a handy base for bikes and a kayak or two.
But, to link it to my previous posts, there is nothing stopping us coming up with a chassis design that could be used for a large expedition unit and also use it for a small load lugger.
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tacr2man Just got MTs
Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Odometer: 208 Location: J10 M40
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Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject:
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Size body about 7x5 with fold down tailgate , and front panel . To aid acess to things carried on bed of trailer ,
suspension most cost effective is multileaf springs (gives a good spread of load range). with all shackles greasable. Must have good quality s/absorbers, mounted near vertical .
Hubs to take same wheels as tow vehicle, and run in same track. Hubs fitted with bearing buddies with grease nipples (useful to force out water after wading)
Braking , self adj discs , otherwise very soon out of adj , and useless. , dont get clogged with mud and sand etc .
A very strong A frame tow bar with a good length so that on full lock body misses rear of tow vehicle .
stone guard fitted to A frame to prevent rocks bouncing off of front of trailer and taking out rear window of tow vehicle.
Mudguards heavy enough to stand on . (that way brackets will be strong enough not to break off on corrugations ).
Lighting led type , fully sealed . All wiring fed thru steel pipe (protection) .
Ozzie style gimbal type 50mm ball coupling ,nato hitch noise drives you mad .
Adj landing legs fitted at rear, with wide tyre, fold up jockey wheel at front .
Brackets to fit roof top tent to top of trailer , (wife would not climb on top of landrover when pregnant for some reason .)
The above all works very well , as built and used same in OZ
__________________________________ 1986 110 CSW 3.9i
1992 90 300tdi auto
1999 Range Rover Dse Auto |
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Hillbilly Raider Just got MTs
Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Odometer: 175 Location: WEST SUSSEX/THE ALPS
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Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject:
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i personally dont like trailers, its another thing to worry about when traveling ...parking in small villages/towns , reversing /passsing on single track tracks with a gert big drop off to one side and a mountain the other,
having to leave all your worldly goods in one place if you have to leave said trailer for any reason.... and the temptation to take stuff you could have done without but take as you now have "more space"
But as i said thats my own personal opinion
__________________________________ WWW.ALPINEROVERS.COM
COME AND ROVER IN A ROVER |
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teemu Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 May 2008 Odometer: 73 Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:05 am Post subject:
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Does anyone ever measured how much flexibility Nato-hook allows ?
I'm curious about Nato-hook vs "normal trailer hook"
(dont mean rotating hooks)
-It looks like the allowed movement at my "karry-trailer" with normal
hitch is'nt so much. The bowl has been bended a little, so the ball has some free play now
Using tilted shaft would be a good one, but you cannot MOT trailer with
that kind of shaft in Finland
I think there has to be somekind of a stoppers, othervise you find your trailer tilted
Any pic's of DIY-project's ??
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YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject:
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All Nato hitches rotate 360* allowing the trailer to roll without taking the vehicle with it. They have two lugs you engage with a pin to hold the hitch in a fixed upright position when you are on road. With regard to horizontal movement they are pretty much the same as a ball hitch but allow much more vertical movement (you could in theory hang the trailer vertically off a cliff on the hitch).
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
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teemu Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 May 2008 Odometer: 73 Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject:
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OK, i may mix the nato-hook with wery similar type hook that used to be common in Finland. Many old BJ40 had that type hook in rear, and they were permanent solutions, no rotating ones..
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YotaDave Articulating
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Odometer: 958 Location: Bristol
1994 Toyota Landcruiser
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject:
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Nato hitch:
You can see the lugs with the pin in at the bottom which in this picture is engaged stopping the hitch rotating.
__________________________________ Dave (the Young Fart) |
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Roger Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Odometer: 2050 Location: Redditch Worcestershire
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Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:25 am Post subject:
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Just a couple of pics. of my general purpose trailer.
4 wheels gives stability and removes ( well almost ) need for spare. You can limp to nearest tyre dealer!
"A" arm is adjustable for height to allow trailer use on other motors. This is important because with 4 wheels you need to keep load even all round.
It's only light duty construction as Indespension type units only rated at 5 cwt per pair.
Rides so well you cant tell it's there which is a bit disconcerting, as you can't see it either!
The bed size is 5ft x 4ft which I find admirable for the sort of use's I put it to. I have overloaded it to a small amount but have not damaged it apart from torn woodwork.
Will be looking to replace plywood in the Summer. I am thinking of either alluminium or galv. steel sheet as a better option. As it sits outside all year the woodwork only lasts 3 years.
Basic trailer is about 10 years old and is welded from 40mm x 40mm x6mm angle. Suspension units are 20 years old and hubs are ex. mini but with taper roller bearings. I need some new wheels though!
Roger
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Scotty2 Gate Opener
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Odometer: 22 Location: Winsford, Cheshire
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject:
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I've plans for an off road camping trailer, something along the lines of the nice expensive ones that you see advertised. I've completed stage one which was to buy a Sankey trailer. It's an ex RAF tool trailer, so has the triangular body with sides that open up and a lot of the storage is ready to go. It is in good condition as it has only pottered around airfields most of it's life by the look of it. I agree the NATO hitch can be a bit noisey, but from what i have been told, it makes them tricky to steal as the ring is too big for the civilian jaws you get on vans etc. Plus, being hte tool trailer, it has a wheels on the front struts so it can be wheeled around very easily. All I need to do now is to find the time and money for conversion.....
__________________________________ 1994 Tdi Auto Discovery (SORN'd)
Audi A3 2.0T S-Line (quick, but useless off road and for camping!) |
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andypandysdirtylandy Gate Opener
Joined: 23 Feb 2007 Odometer: 44
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject:
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Storage for a gas bottle and wee gas hob is handy
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