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Propane added to Diesel air intake.

 
 
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16 RN 49
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: North Notts


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:58 am    Post subject: Propane added to Diesel air intake. Reply with quote

Someone I know is trying out adding Propane (from a normal caravan style tank) directly into the air intake of his Diesel engine. He showed me the difference it makes to the revs and it was quite noticeable (add propane; revs go up). He claims there's a lot more power. It's just plumbed in using a manual feed (of no more than about 4psi) but he'd like to get it linked to the turbo diaphragm so that it's only added on boost.

In theory he should get better fuel economy (Derv wise) but he's just waiting for the engine to blowup!

Anyone tried this? Any thoughts? Not that I'll be doing it myself!
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XrHiNo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oxygen would be better.

Adding propane is just giving the engine more fuel to burn, making it less efficient. Adding oxygen would improve combustion and improve efficiency.
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Nathaniel
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Joined: 13 May 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X-Rhino wrote:
Oxygen would be better.

Adding propane is just giving the engine more fuel to burn, making it less efficient. Adding oxygen would improve combustion and improve efficiency.


Supposedly it allows the engine to use nearly all of the diesel, takes it from 75-80% burnt to nearly 95% apparently.

http://www.autogasonestop.com/diesel.htm

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XrHiNo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, but it's still inducting more fuel which is the same as opening the throttle more.

A tiny amount of oxygen would improve the diesel combustion percentage and burn cleaner, hotter and more efficiently.

Too much oxygen and you start to melt stuff..... [think oxy/acetylene] Think
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Ricky
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Joined: 21 May 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i remember reading a lot about lpg/diesel conversions a couple of years back. its been used alot in the big "super"trucks abroad. i think it was america , australia and the like.
It think the general consensus then was you dont save anything mpg wise but it drives more like a petrol engine
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:)
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: Norfolk


1995 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had heard the same as Nat, but I would like to have it independently confirmed.

Simon,
You are correct about adding more fuel only IF you leave your throttle in the same place. Supposing that it does enable more of the diesel to be burnt properly in the cylinder then you should be able to lift off the throttle and achieve the same engine output power. The total fuel energy input diesel+propane should be less than diesel alone. But as I said above I would like to see some independent tests to show what the real rather than theoretical difference is.
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Tim.

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nicks90
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1995 Land Rover Defender

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theres been quite a few threads on propane injection over at LR4x4


allisport actually does a full kit to install it
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a sports and performance specialist in the next block of units and they're always playing around with nitrous on Nissan skylines. A few months ago they ran a mazda RX-7 on a mix of petrol and ethanol with an oxygen induction at Santa pod and sheared the spiggot shaft in the gearbox.
Their latest project is a SPAM Tdi with propane induction but I don't know how they getting on with that one.

Will let you know.
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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here's an old thread. Look the man up and see if he's wrecked the engine yet !

http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=15595

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TheBigPurpleOne
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Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a thought
but a camping propane bottle with a pipe going to a BLOS propane carb with the idle screwed right in so theres no fuel on idle then a half turn or so out on the mixture screw and you would have a nigh on perfect system for £100 or so and it would increase fueling with revs

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Rossko
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NRS91 wrote:
just a thought
but a camping propane bottle with a pipe going to a BLOS propane carb with the idle screwed right in so theres no fuel on idle then a half turn or so out on the mixture screw and you would have a nigh on perfect system for £100 or so and it would increase fueling with revs


So you've got this camping gaz bottle rolling around, and no shut-off for the fuel supply e.g. in the event of an accident ... for your own skin, do it properly or not at all.

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terence
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a word DONT

yor driving a bomb..

get a proper kit.

more herd thinning required but sadly youll probably kill someone else.

the kits are readily available.
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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the kits are also 500 quid
and it wasnt doing to be rolling around and it was going to have a gas tap wired into the ignition and through a switch on the dash... i was just wondering what you thought about using the BLOS carb like that..

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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NRS91 wrote:
i was just wondering what you thought about using the BLOS carb like that..


Can't see it working at all to be honest, the BLOS is designed as "gas carb" i.e. it's function it's to meter in enough gas to provide the perfect gas/air mix for a spark ignition engine (with no other fuels involved). You want about 10-100 times less gas than that in a diesel ...

A stop-valve connected to 'ignition on' is not good enough, by the by. That would still spew gas if the engine stalls e.g. in an accident. It does pay to get the right gear.

Also, be aware that if you intend to use gas cylinders on a road vehicle, you need to pay road fuel duty on the contents. The revenue get extremely arsey about duty evasion. In real life it works out cheaper per-litre to fit a proper refillable tank and use duty paid Autogas.

cheers, Ross K

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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the BLOS carb can be adjusted like a normal carb
my other thought was to have the valve through the alternator charge i.e power taken from alty so it covers the stall and also the BLOS relys on air being drawn into the engine to open the valve to let propane in

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Rossko
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Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NRS91 wrote:
the BLOS carb can be adjusted like a normal carb


Yes, that's exactly the problem. Diesel engines don't have carbs ... because they don't have throttles. The volume of air intake has absolutely nothing to do with the power being demanded. Power output is controlled by varying the fuel supply, not the air supply.

The BLOS would provide a fuel supply nicely metered against the airflow, that's to say totally incorrect and completely unrelated to the accelerator pedal, and the engine would runaway to a fairly quick destruction. That's the risk with introducing propane with any diesel fumigation system, and must be guarded against by careful design. Which is why the advice is to do it properly not mess with bar-b-que parts, but don't let me put you off ... just stand well clear.

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TheBigPurpleOne
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks
just throwing ideas around as usual
anyway i can use the actuator vacuum to adjust the flow rate seeing as that is a popular method?

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Kitesurf
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1994 Toyota Surf

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most effective form of fuel cut-off would be to have a shut off valve that operates when there is no oil pressure. No oil pressure means the engine isn't running and is independent of the ignition/electics.

BTW, I have had a dabble. Allegedly the tiny amount of gas required makes the diesel burn more efficiently. A guy in the states claims that a 4Lb camping gas bottle lasts him 3 months.

The little play I had (on private land of course) achieved petrol engine like response from the engine. It also ran quieter and smoother. We tried the emissions tester at my bros garage and it reduced the C02 to 0.05. In time it will be EU law LOL.

I decided against trying it out on the road, on the grounds that no insurance company would touch a home made system and any accident, no matter what the cause, would be put down to the mod.

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johnwestmids
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Joined: 12 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:16 am    Post subject: lpg Reply with quote

Hello all, If you do the convertion yourself then go to a lpg fitment center
and ask them to check it over and pay them there FEE and you will get a certificate ?? just as simple as that??

Been there done my own convertion used 2 medium sized campimg tanks unscrewed the tops of flushed out with water drilled the required holes welded in/on threads emptied water dryed out and painted then fitted and taken for test certificate been running like this now 3 years and done 2 otyer convertions as well,,,
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Rossko
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: lpg Reply with quote

johnwestmids wrote:
Been there done my own convertion used 2 medium sized campimg tanks unscrewed the tops of flushed out with water drilled the required holes welded in/on threads emptied water dryed out and painted then fitted and taken for test certificate been running like this now 3 years and done 2 otyer convertions as well,,,


My lord no wonder the industry gets a bad name .... who's been issuing certificates on tanks with completely invalidated makers certification then ??

cheers, Ross K

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johnwestmids
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: lpg Reply with quote

johnwestmids wrote:
Hello all, If you do the convertion yourself then go to a lpg fitment center
and ask them to check it over and pay them there FEE and you will get a certificate ?? just as simple as that??

Been there done my own convertion used 2 medium sized campimg tanks unscrewed the tops of flushed out with water drilled the required holes welded in/on threads emptied water dryed out and painted then fitted and taken for test certificate been running like this now 3 years and done 2 otyer convertions as well,,,


Just re read my answer SORRY missed a bit out should have said once welded and painted take to testere and get it tested then fit and take it and get it citificated? ( sorry about the confusion),,,john
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TheBigPurpleOne
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1987 Land Rover 90 TD

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what holes were needed and for what? and also im guessing the threads were for attaching it to the vehicle?
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johnwestmids
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The threads were for tank cover and outlet to intake used straps to hold down unscrewed the original tap and used this for filler the other drilled/tappedand a nut welded in place was for saftey valve- vented to outside the vehical?
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