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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: Transit engine?
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Need some help on Transit engines in Mogs??
Mine came with a 2.4 York in it. The engine starts,runs and is good on fuel.When I use it off road in the low gears, it does everything i want it to but on the road it is SLOW. I have found some curves on the net and they give the York as 65bhp and 100lbf torque at 2500 rev(quite high) I want power and torque like the 200 tdi but it is just too wide on the LHS to fit.
My question is - do all transits fit the same bellhousing? I'm told they do, but it seems like wishful thinking to me?
If they do I think I need to look out for a later, higher powered unit which will mate with my existing chopped bellhousing.
Does anyone know??
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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jeepmadmike Mud Obsessed
Joined: 08 May 2005 Odometer: 4573 Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject:
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I'm sure that the york lump is very closely related to the Di transit lump so you should be OK, i know a man who will know I'll she if i can catch him tomorrow morning.
__________________________________ Land Rovers are the root of all evil!
Now i have gone and bought a D4!
one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy. |
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jeepmadmike Mud Obsessed
Joined: 08 May 2005 Odometer: 4573 Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject:
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I'm sure that the york lump is very closely related to the Di transit lump so you should be OK, i know a man who will know I'll she if i can catch him tomorrow morning.
__________________________________ Land Rovers are the root of all evil!
Now i have gone and bought a D4!
one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy. |
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject:
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Thanks Mike id be grateful if you can, as you can see from the pix..........the cab is very much built around the engine! If you contact is a "tranny man" I would like to find out power, torque and what they fetch? Ta.
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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stuvy Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Odometer: 82 Location: Bedfordshire
1994 Land Rover Discovery
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:08 am Post subject:
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look here, http://fordtransit.org/forum/
this is the best transit forum on the web, its were i found my 4x4 pick up!
__________________________________ Discovery S1 gone but sorely missed!
58 Simoncelli |
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VolksMog Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 18 Location: Netherlands
1966 Mercedes-Benz s404.1
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject:
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mmm, interesting... i have a transit from '99 with 200.000km and a compression on all cilinders within factory new limits. I drove the van for 180,000km myself and the engine is very good! Its a 2.4TD rated 85hp. I wonder how the engine is mounted on the transmission? does it fit to the clutch housing without much modification??
ps i have a little workshop guide with engine numbers/hp version. the 2.5di engine is from 50-115pk range. its scanned in pdf so cant upload it. ill try in jpg.
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jeepmadmike Mud Obsessed
Joined: 08 May 2005 Odometer: 4573 Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject:
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the man who should know seems to have gone missing currently! I'll keep an eye out for him.
__________________________________ Land Rovers are the root of all evil!
Now i have gone and bought a D4!
one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy. |
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: Re: Transit engine?
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Turnip wrote: | Need some help on Transit engines in Mogs??
Mine came with a 2.4 York in it. The engine starts,runs and is good on fuel.When I use it off road in the low gears, it does everything i want it to but on the road it is SLOW. I have found some curves on the net and they give the York as 65bhp and 100lbf torque at 2500 rev(quite high) I want power and torque like the 200 tdi but it is just too wide on the LHS to fit.
My question is - do all transits fit the same bellhousing? I'm told they do, but it seems like wishful thinking to me?
If they do I think I need to look out for a later, higher powered unit which will mate with my existing chopped bellhousing.
Does anyone know?? |
I am interested in what you consider slow. Is it the actual top or cruising speed ? or is it that speed drops off rapidly when encountering slight gradients on the highwy ? The horsepower and torque figures on your relatively modern York engine seem a little conservative compared to the ancient LandRover 2.25 litre normally aspirated deisel engine that from memory developed 62 BHP at 4000 rpm and 103 ft lbs at 1500 rpm.
This topic intersts me in that I am considering buying an ex Swiss military 404 over here in OZ. Unlike Europe Unimogs are extremely rare over here and the 404 would set me back over $A18000 landed including the BS government charges. To this I must add the cost of conversion to right hand drive and registration.The only way I can justify this expense is through continuity of use both as daily transport and for our proposed round Australia family trip. Due to ever increasing fuel costs the Mog 2.2 petrol is out of the question, so before I commit to the purchase I am researching a suitable reliable, economical, relatively high revving and readily available over here 4cyl deisel that will actually fit the hole and not encroach into the driverside leg space too much. The LandRover 200TDI engines would be ok but appear a bit wide on the right hand side due to the location of the injector pump assembly.To narrow it down I wonder if it would be feasible to fit the early 2.25 litre timing cover and chain assembly to the 200TDI block?Then mount the pump vertically and drive it off the centre of the camshaft as was done on the 2.25 deisel. The 200'TDI's use this location to drive the vacuum pump for the braking system. A suitable alternator with integral vac pump can be substituted to replace this.
Wang.
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Anthony Off-Road Guru
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Odometer: 1640
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:02 am Post subject:
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wangaroo,
If you are looking for a high revving 4 cylinder diesel that will fit the Unimog. Have you concidered one of the BMW 2 litre 4 Cylinder BMW TDi units out of a 1, 3, or 5 Series. High Revving, Very Wide Torque which start low and exceptionally frugal. They are all Longitudinal or North South mounted which makes them suitable, why not keep the gear box on as well. Some have 6 speed boxes, I believe.
__________________________________ Anthony |
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shaggy Articulating
Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Odometer: 560 Location: Manchester, UK
1961 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 404 Doka
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject:
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I don't know of a right hand drive conversion. The engine is slightly offset to the right hand side, it's probably only 65% of the width.
You can sort of see the difference (after) from here;
and (before!)
Can you get LPG in aus?
jim
__________________________________ Bright Orange Unimog 404 DoKa
www.foodfight.org.uk/mog |
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject:
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The previous "builder" must have done quite a lot of work to fit the Transit York. They have shortened the gearbox bell housing and welded on a steel plate. To the steel plate they have welded the front part of a transit gearbox bell housing. Not Pretty and I'm always wary of how well the alignment was considered!
When I say this is slow I mean that with any load on the back , the slightest hill means top gear is not much use. I put mine across a weigh bridge last weekend and even with the alloy back it still weighs 2880kg, so its not surprising that a 65bhp unit struggles! The other problem with this engine is that it likes to be reved, there is not much low down torque in the way the 200td1 delivers it. I have a 200 tdi - and I love them, but it is a very "wide engine" and the mog has a big restriction on the drivers side.
I have been onto the Transit site and they say that the York and DI have the same block fastenings - but no one actually says "yes it will go straight in" The other prob with the Mog is sump clearance of course.
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject:
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You are spoilt for choice in Europe with suitable Deisel engines. We are too, but to meet the criteria of availability of complete low tech high reliability engines and spare parts support, particularly in the more remote regions of Australia, the practical choices narrow down to either Japanese or Landrover TDI thanks to early Discoveries being sold here in large numbers. Mercedes cars, BMW's, VW's etc are almost always petrol powered here.
LPG use is very widespread around capital cities but not so prevalent in outback regions.The prospect of running the 2.2 Mog engine between major cities on petrol at 10 to 12 mpg is a deal killer as far as the round Australia trip is concerned.
I have seen a 404 converted to RHD some years ago, and yes it was rather cramped looking, but the owner who was no midget managed to take it on some fairly long journeys. I once had a 1942 Canadian Chev 3/4 ton 4x4 truck that was just as cramped in the driving compartment so it's something that one gets used to.
I'm now toying with the possibilty of deleting the torque tubes and going to multi link suspension with open propshafts, which should in theory allow me to shift the engine transmission unit over to the left side.Although it is alot of work it does expand the possible choices of engines, with the added advantage of being able to increase the space on the drivers side.
This is not something I'd do to an $18000 vehicle though. I'd be well ahead moneywise to take a holiday and fly out to Europe to buy a cheapy that needs a bit of TLC and ship it back here.
Wang.
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VolksMog Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 18 Location: Netherlands
1966 Mercedes-Benz s404.1
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject:
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i read a post on a other list a guy brought 4 pieces 404 direct from swiss into aus. for aprox 50K aus.$
if looking for japanese engine go for the 3 liter 6 cilinder Nissan patrol. Its an easy swap as far i heard. i think its the most used diesel i know off next to the 3 liter OM617(a) and the 6 cilinder diesels from merc.
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject:
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VolksMog wrote: | i read a post on a other list a guy brought 4 pieces 404 direct from swiss into aus. for aprox 50K aus.$
if looking for japanese engine go for the 3 liter 6 cilinder Nissan patrol. Its an easy swap as far i heard. i think its the most used diesel i know off next to the 3 liter OM617(a) and the 6 cilinder diesels from merc. |
Yes that sounds like the guy from Tractive Force who is selling 404's for $18000 AUs. That's not an unreasonable markup in my opinion, and a virtually new vehicle for that price is relatively good value providing one was happy to use the vehicle as is. but it's difficult to rationalise the outlay when one has to spend several thousand dollars on top of that to do a deisel conversion and change to left handdrive.
Wang.
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normalbloke Articulating
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Odometer: 633
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject:
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If 10-12 mpg is making you shudder,what figure are you aiming for?
I suspect you aren't going to get a huge amount above that regardless of the engine you put in.
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:07 am Post subject:
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normalbloke wrote: | If 10-12 mpg is making you shudder,what figure are you aiming for?
I suspect you aren't going to get a huge amount above that regardless of the engine you put in. |
As a friend of mine regularly clocks a little over 30 mpg in a fully kitted 200TdI powered 4speed series 3 LandRover that tips the scales at just over 2300kgs I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to expect around 18 mpg with a similar engine in a Mog.
Wang.
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Anthony Off-Road Guru
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Odometer: 1640
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:17 am Post subject:
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wangaroo Hi,
The best I ever got out of a 110TDi was 25mpg, it usualy averaged out week to week at about 23mpg from memmory. I usualy brimmed the tank and took care over the fugues keeping a log for a while. I do not know any one who got 30mpg back then let alone obtain that sort of economy regularly. I am not disputing that it can be done but @ what sort of speeds are we talking about, it would be a very frustrating ride. I would think that the Disco would struggle to obtain those figures regularly I think that they would be on for about 26 - 28mpg. I am sure that their have been some advances in add on bits and pieces since I was using them which would improve things possibly, I would be a bit skeptical if anything inprooved things much more than about 10%.
wangaroo wrote: | normalbloke wrote: | If 10-12 mpg is making you shudder,what figure are you aiming for?
I suspect you aren't going to get a huge amount above that regardless of the engine you put in. |
As a friend of mine regularly clocks a little over 30 mpg in a fully kitted 200TdI powered 4speed series 3 LandRover that tips the scales at just over 2300kgs I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to expect around 18 mpg with a similar engine in a Mog.
Wang. |
__________________________________ Anthony |
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject:
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Anthony wrote: | wangaroo Hi,
The best I ever got out of a 110TDi was 25mpg, it usualy averaged out week to week at about 23mpg from memmory. I usualy brimmed the tank and took care over the fugues keeping a log for a while. I do not know any one who got 30mpg back then let alone obtain that sort of economy regularly. I am not disputing that it can be done but @ what sort of speeds are we talking about, it would be a very frustrating ride. I would think that the Disco would struggle to obtain those figures regularly I think that they would be on for about 26 - 28mpg. I am sure that their have been some advances in add on bits and pieces since I was using them which would improve things possibly, I would be a bit skeptical if anything inprooved things much more than about 10%.
Hi Anthony,Iwould guess that the difference between the fuel consumption on your 110 and my friends series 3 is that the majority of his driving is done commuting between Melbourne and the country town he lives in some 300 kilometres away on relatively open uncongested highways cruising in the 90KMH region, a speed I wouldn't be too unhappy at cruising in a Mog. He processes his own vegge oil fuel and is quite anal at keeping accurate records of fuel usage verses mileage. As I said earlier I'm not expecting 30 mpg from a Mog, but a 50% increase over 12 mpg should be acheivable. A former 404 Mog owner I once spoke to claimed the 2.2 petrol engine wasted fuel because it was so underpowered that it could barely pull its ratio gaps on up changes, The fitting of a 250 cu inch Ford Falcon engine improved his highway consumtion to 16 mpg. I may be wrong but I can't see 18mpg being too far out of reach with a 200TDI.
Wang.
wangaroo wrote: | normalbloke wrote: | If 10-12 mpg is making you shudder,what figure are you aiming for?
I suspect you aren't going to get a huge amount above that regardless of the engine you put in. |
As a friend of mine regularly clocks a little over 30 mpg in a fully kitted 200TdI powered 4speed series 3 LandRover that tips the scales at just over 2300kgs I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to expect around 18 mpg with a similar engine in a Mog.
Wang. |
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject:
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Anthony wrote: | wangaroo Hi,
The best I ever got out of a 110TDi was 25mpg, it usualy averaged out week to week at about 23mpg from memmory. I usualy brimmed the tank and took care over the fugues keeping a log for a while. I do not know any one who got 30mpg back then let alone obtain that sort of economy regularly. I am not disputing that it can be done but @ what sort of speeds are we talking about, it would be a very frustrating ride. I would think that the Disco would struggle to obtain those figures regularly I think that they would be on for about 26 - 28mpg. I am sure that their have been some advances in add on bits and pieces since I was using them which would improve things possibly, I would be a bit skeptical if anything inprooved things much more than 10%
Hi Anthony,Iwould guess that the difference between the fuel consumption on your 110 and my friends series 3 is that the majority of his driving is done commuting between Melbourne and the country town he lives in some 300 kilometres away on relatively open uncongested highways cruising in the 90KMH region, a speed I wouldn't be too unhappy at cruising in a Mog. He processes his own vegge oil fuel and is quite anal at keeping accurate records of fuel usage verses mileage. As I said earlier I'm not expecting 30 mpg from a Mog, but a 50% increase over 12 mpg should be acheivable. A former 404 Mog owner I once spoke to claimed the 2.2 petrol engine wasted fuel because it was so underpowered that it could barely pull its ratio gaps on up changes, The fitting of a 250 cu inch Ford Falcon engine improved his highway consumtion to 16 mpg. I may be wrong but I can't see 18mpg being too far out of reach with a 200TDI.
Wang.
wangaroo wrote: | normalbloke wrote: | If 10-12 mpg is making you shudder,what figure are you aiming for?
I suspect you aren't going to get a huge amount above that regardless of the engine you put in. |
As a friend of mine regularly clocks a little over 30 mpg in a fully kitted 200TdI powered 4speed series 3 LandRover that tips the scales at just over 2300kgs I wouldn't think it was unreasonable to expect around 18 mpg with a similar engine in a Mog.
Wang. |
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low n lazy Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Odometer: 165
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: transit/york engine
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Yes the bell housings are the same, it will be almost one out one in. But remember there are many different hp di engines depending on which one you go for. If you fit a later one 95-on you MUST blank the egr valve off as they stick open and allow too much exhaust gasses back into the engine, this will cause chronic engine failure at around 75,000 miles. I maintain a fleet of LDV convoys with the tranny di's. Also remember there is a turbo version of the di, these are AWSOME! But fly-by-wire. Alternativly a turbo and manifold will fit to a natural aspirated block with good results. Hope this helps.
__________________________________ www.n.c.o.r.t.c.co.uk |
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Anthony Off-Road Guru
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Odometer: 1640
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject:
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wangaroo,
Hi, I have no idea what might be available in terms of mpg for a 404 with a 200 TDi having never owned one of those. It certainly should be huge inprrovement over the origonal petrol unit and the Ford york. It would give very good driving charactoristics so long as the gearing was apropiate. I do not know how the petrol engine graph plots out and what its max revs are or it cruising revs but usualy diesels are a bit happier with bigger gears and I would have thought that this is the case here also. I did own a 6Litre Srait 6l Diesel 406 DoKa for a few years but that is apples and pears.
__________________________________ Anthony |
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject:
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Low and lazy......thanks for that! Its about the most direct reply I've had so far. If you look at my pix at the beginning of this - you will see that the exhaust manifold runs right down the side of my leg - ouch. The York engine is "canted over" towards the left. Is this the case with the DI?
So what I need is a DI but not fly by wire (when did they change?) and possibly bolt a turbo manifold on? Do you not have to drop the compression ratio and up the pump fuelling to get an improvement?
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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low n lazy Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Odometer: 165
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: di transit engine
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Only the turbo engines were fbw, the engine will sit just like your york, no need to drop comp ratio will work fine (even better if you can squeeze an intercooler in too). Yes you can fuel the pump up or...... you can fit a 200tdi injector pump. They are very similar. This will give you around 120hp, prob more if intercooled and fueled up.
__________________________________ www.n.c.o.r.t.c.co.uk |
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Steveb Gate Opener
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Odometer: 44 Location: Suffolk
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject:
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wangaroo wrote: |
I'm now toying with the possibilty of deleting the torque tubes and going to multi link suspension with open propshafts, which should in theory allow me to shift the engine transmission unit over to the left side.Although it is alot of work it does expand the possible choices of engines, with the added advantage of being able to increase the space on the drivers side.
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Hi Wangaroo,
that solution crossed my mind when we talked about this on LR4x4, it would give you much more freedom with eng/trans .....you could go mid engine allowing much more space for PAS and RHD and better seating too..how do things stand with building your own bodywork where you are ?
..back to tranny Di's , they're canted over the same as the yorkie , throttle cable engines are available quite late i thinkposs 2000 or later , turbo's are fairly rare ....you could always make your own bits and chuck a LR turbo on..if theres room. Di's are good engines so when you do get it done I'm sure you will see a difference
Cheers
Steveb
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VolksMog Gate Opener
Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Odometer: 18 Location: Netherlands
1966 Mercedes-Benz s404.1
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject:
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Quote: |
..back to tranny Di's , they're canted over the same as the yorkie , throttle cable engines are available quite late i thinkposs 2000 or later , turbo's are fairly rare .... |
In the manual page i posted its in collum 5 (motorregelsysteem = engine controlsystem) listed what type of management is used. EPIC = drive by wire. from modelyear 1992 the DI was used. also a DI turbodiesel with EPIC is in that list from 1992 up.
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low n lazy Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Odometer: 165
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: transit engine
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Ive just had another ldv go wrong today @ 72,000 miles, they all drop a valve on number 2, if you do decide to go with a di make sure its not out of an LDV CONVOY!!!!!!!
__________________________________ www.n.c.o.r.t.c.co.uk |
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Turnip Just got MTs
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Odometer: 192 Location: Gloucestershire
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Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject:
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How do I tell the difference between an LDV motor and ordinary tranny??? Im interested in what you say about the 200TDI pump? Is that a difficult conversion/setup?
I have been having a play on the tranny forum and there is a guy there who has literally pulled a York from a Hymer camper and slotted a DI in - so there is hope!! I would like to find a power / torque curve for the later motor though?
__________________________________ Never mistake the edge of your rut for the horizon......... |
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wangaroo Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Odometer: 152 Location: in deep doo doo
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:41 am Post subject:
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Steveb wrote: | wangaroo wrote: |
I'm now toying with the possibilty of deleting the torque tubes and going to multi link suspension with open propshafts, which should in theory allow me to shift the engine transmission unit over to the left side.Although it is alot of work it does expand the possible choices of engines, with the added advantage of being able to increase the space on the drivers side.
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Hi Wangaroo,
that solution crossed my mind when we talked about this on LR4x4, it would give you much more freedom with eng/trans .....you could go mid engine allowing much more space for PAS and RHD and better seating too..how do things stand with building your own bodywork where you are?
Cheers
Steveb |
I'd have to check current regulations Steve, but last I knew bodywork had to use original mountings and to comply with the safety standards of the era that the truck was first registered, re crash padding, approved glass, seat belt anchors etc. Being over 6000lbs GVM and 1960's vintage, I'd guess these standards would likely be minimal.
Wang.
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low n lazy Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Odometer: 165
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: di engines
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Its very hard to tell the difference between ldv and transit engines, just try and see it run in the vehicle. Il try and get a pic of a tdi pump on a turbo engine.
__________________________________ www.n.c.o.r.t.c.co.uk |
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low n lazy Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Odometer: 165
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: di turbo
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Hi again, just been playing round with a di turbo ldv today, it goes like ****, and its un-intercooled (so far). Yes its fly-by-wire but the wiring loom not that bad, quite simple. I would consider one of these for your mog and if it does over go wrong on the wiring/fuel injection side convert to manual pump.
Dan
__________________________________ www.n.c.o.r.t.c.co.uk |
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