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4site4x4tyres.co.uk

knuckle arm + anti-roll bar jam
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Odometer: 48
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: knuckle arm + anti-roll bar jam Reply with quote

Hi everybody.

Just wanted to describe a nice day's ending and ask for your opinion, about a problem I have to deal with.
Going out for a ride today, at some point I've tried to pass an Y shaped, rather deep (dry) streambed.
Already in the streambed, I've headed to the right bank to get out.
As the right wheel hit the bank and climbed half the way up, I realized that I could not turn the steering wheel to any direction at all.
It was stuck all the way to the right (and because of the locker I was heading to the opposite side, right into a bush, luckily).
Still in the streambed, half way up the bank, not able to move at all, I got under the car to find out what caused the problem:
the right steering knuckle arm had been somehow stuck against (under) the anti-roll bar.





After some serious shoveling and several fruitless efforts with levers (not enough space to handle), I've used my mate's jack (romboid-shaped, a jimny's jack).
Managed to move the knuckle arm upwards to loosen from the anti-roll bar and get the steering wheel back to function.

I have 10 mm spacers on top of the front coils, and the upper bumpstop cut, for sometime now.
I have recently fitted the Hoodoo lift kit on (the spacers stayed on), and last week I've got and placed my new 6.00/16 tyres.
I apparently have not disconnected the anti-roll bar, as I use the car daily on the road, and I am rather skeptical to do so.
I don't know what of these (all, perhaps?) might have caused the problem.

Does anybody have any thoughts about this? Any help would be appreciated.

P.S. I would be very very very happy if a (possible) answer was referring to pictures (those above, maybe?), if you think it would help. I am NOT good with technical terms (on the keyboard over an hour to write this little post Embarassed )

Thank you in advance.
Manos


Last edited by manos on Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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hamat5
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Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Location: Baia Mare, Romania



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huhhh...

I understand after you solved the problem in the field everything is OK now. But I am interested also what were the reason happening this and how to avoid it to happen again. I am still before this operation.

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73 de Zoli / YO5CRQ
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Odometer: 48
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hamat5 wrote:
Huhhh...

I understand after you solved the problem in the field everything is OK now. But I am interested also what were the reason happening this and how to avoid it to happen again. I am still before this operation.


The problem was solved allright, but It happened once again until I finally got out of the ditch ("unlocked" itself after a few inches front and back).
I feel very lucky though, that all this didn't cause any accident.
The feeling of suddenly having a "locked" steering wheel is really frightening.
I have heard of a similar case here, but not of any solution.
I've had some "warnings" at the ride last week, though:
funny noises from the arches (I thought) and the horn blow itself (!) with the wheels all the way turned to the right.
I realise now the connection of the "warnings".
I thought it might have been the new tyres and I didn't pay much attention.
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gadgetboy
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Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Odometer: 1947
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take the anti-roll bar off. You won't even notice it's gone on road and it allows better articulation off road.
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Alejoint
Just got MTs


Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Odometer: 404
Location: Venezuela



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Manos:

A while back I saw a mod , it was on a Lycos-hosted french page which I tried searching today with no luck at all...

Anyway, the owner had installed a french version of the now famous Hoodoo lift kit and it seems he went a little too high, so he had to turn the tie rods (those things circled red on your drawings) upside down in order to maintain the steering system geometry.

I don´t know if this would apply to your case, but it's something worth checking...

__________________________________
Alejandro Gabatel
'91 1600
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Odometer: 48
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the answers

@ gadgetboy : this is the first thing that I’ve thought too, but a friend here had a bad experience after disconnecting the bar and I have second thoughts. I would like to search of other options before removing the bar.

@ Alejandro, I’ve got myself confused (as I was afraid Embarassed )

The legends of the pictures are like this:

for this one here:



No 5 (marked in green) : tie-rod. Are those the ones to turn upside-down? You mean some kind of a modification to the fastening bracket (no 3 on the image) so that the tie-rod would somehow go under the anti-roll bar?


The red circles are here:



no1 (now marked in light blue) : track rods. Maybe you mean to turn these? I got confused because of the circles being on another part.

a fellow niva owner (and member here, motion) had the same problem and he is thinking of lowering the anti-roll with 1” spacers, something like this :

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manos,
This is not something I've heard of, but the majority I know do not have an anti-roll bar on their Niva. GadgetBoy is perfectly correct in saying that you won't notice that it's not there, and it will improve articulation at the front. Take it off and try it, you could always put it back on.
Thinking about what happened to you - the wedges raise the lower plate (and the anti-roll bar bracket), but the track rods stay in the same position, so the space between them is reduced, and that's probably what caused it. What Alejandro refers to the French doing is turning the trackrod end, and modifying the receiver, so that the trackrod enters from above, not below. No.9 in your drawing. Was it the rod end that caught, or the two 13mm bolts (no.5) used for adjustment of the track? If the latter, the bolts can be rotated to the top position to prevent this.
Having said that, the few I know who do have an anti-roll bar, haven't had this problem, but it would be very disconcerting!
The horn blowing is probably the wires rubbing against the knuckle joint at 20 on the steering column. This joint can rub off the insulation causing a short circuit.
Regards,
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Odometer: 48
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hoodoo wrote:
Manos,
GadgetBoy is perfectly correct in saying that you won't notice that it's not there, and it will improve articulation at the front. Take it off and try it, you could always put it back on.


I don't doubt it and I am willing to try it, just searching for options, as I've said. There are some thoughts over here for making a mechanism to lock/unlock the bar at will, but it is too early to discuss this.

hoodoo wrote:

Thinking about what happened to you - the wedges raise the lower plate (and the anti-roll bar bracket), but the track rods stay in the same position, so the space between them is reduced, and that's probably what caused it. What Alejandro refers to the French doing is turning the trackrod end, and modifying the receiver, so that the trackrod enters from above, not below.


I was almost certain that this was what Alejandro had in mind, the legends/circles confused me. I will see if I can do something.

hoodoo wrote:

Was it the rod end that caught, or the two 13mm bolts (no.5) used for adjustment of the track?


It was the rod end.

hoodoo wrote:

Having said that, the few I know who do have an anti-roll bar, haven't had this problem, but it would be very disconcerting!


I can't imagine the look in my face when I realised I didn't have front wheels, let alone my anger/ frustration/ weariness after almost two hours of efforts and sweat under the car d'oh! .

hoodoo wrote:

The horn blowing is probably the wires rubbing against the knuckle joint at 20 on the steering column. This joint can rub off the insulation causing a short circuit.
Regards,


Thanks John


Last edited by manos on Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm currently checking with other kit users to see whether any of them have had this problem.
Regards,
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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Location: Thessaloniki, Greece



PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can add "motion" on your list, he had the same problem during an endurance race, hitting the brakes from full speed on a right U-turn ( Shocked ). On the right side also.
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excossack
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive had it on mine as well. Hoodoo lift kit fitted as well. only happend the once while in a garage jacked up. AntiRoll bar still on.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does spacing down the front mounts for the roll bar (23) work? I need an answer to this problem.
Regards,
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excossack
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think that would work, i had to get a bar and press down on the anti roll bar.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just had a quick look and, if it happened on the right, on right lock, then it's the outer trackrod end fouling on the metal anti-roll bar mounting. The immediate solution would be to remove the roll bar. Until I can come up with something else (or someone else can), that's what I recommend.
In the meantime, I'll carry on looking!
Regards,
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excossack
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mine was on right lock, right hand side
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redviffer93
Winch Assistant


Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Odometer: 55
Location: Brisbane Australia



PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that two of the reports involve turning right while compressing the front suspension (by either braking or climbing a rise).

I reckon when I fit my kit next fortnight, I'll attempt packing down the anti-roll.

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My toys:
'94 Lada Niva 1.6L
'93 Honda VFR-750F
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Odometer: 48
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece



PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hoodoo wrote:
I've just had a quick look and, if it happened on the right, on right lock, then it's the outer trackrod end fouling on the metal anti-roll bar mounting. The immediate solution would be to remove the roll bar. Until I can come up with something else (or someone else can), that's what I recommend.
In the meantime, I'll carry on looking!
Regards,


Hi everybody.

So far every report (excossack, motion, myself) is for the right hand side, on right lock.
In "motion's" case happened twice, both on the right.

This is something near to what I saw, and had to move the track rod (9) upwards to get it back to function.
I couldn't use a lever to pull the bar down.



John, I did't mean to state a complain, whatsoever.
The responsibility for fitting the lift and still keep the spacers on, is absolutely mine (same feelings from "motion").
I remember clearly your earlier suggestions in other threads to disconnect the bar (immediate solution, correct).
I have posted this as a problem for everybody interested.

Regards
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svejksoldjer
Just got MTs


Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Odometer: 138




PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i have removed my anti roll-bar because one of the bolts of the affixing bracket broke during the mounting on the car, and since then, i have more than 5000km without any problems whatsoever. offroad is better i guess (or it could be because i am learning new things every time? Smile ), and on road (90%-95% of the total amount of driving) i haven't noticed any problems.

at first, i was afraid to disconnect it, but now i am almost relaxed Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The kit was initially designed for a Niva without an anti-roll bar fitted (my 1.6), and my current Niva, a 2003 model bought new, lost the bar within two days of delivery. So, obviously, avoiding the bar was a problem I never had, and no problems at all ever arose as a result of not having the bar.
For the time being, I must re-iterate that the kit is meant for fitment to a Niva that does NOT have an anti-roll bar fitted, and I have amended the fitting instructions to emphasise this point.
It will not cause problems in ordinary road use, it's offroad that this is likely to be experienced.
Manos, I don't regard your post as a complaint, but as information about a problem that I had not considered, and was unaware existed. It means that now everyone concerned (not just me!) can see if we can come up with a solution.
At the moment, the French idea of mounting the trackrod in it's receiver arm from above instead of from underneath seems to be the best solution, once the problem of the tapered fit is overcome. This is what I'm looking into.
I have tried moving the receiver arms from side to side so they could be mounted upside down, but that caused funny cornering habits! Maybe I got the fitting wrong so I'm going to get the grinder out in the next few days and try again!
Regards,
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Alejoint
Just got MTs


Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Odometer: 404
Location: Venezuela



PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess everybody has its own opinion about this subject, but I wouldn't recommend removing the front sway/anti-roll bar unless the vehicle is meant for 100% off-road use...

The improvement in both suspension travel and articulation is so drastic that I've been tempted to part with it, but then I kept thinking that I don't go off-road that much anymore because of my job and family, so I guess it will stay for now.

Anyway, if the sway bar is going to be removed I'd strongly suggest installing double action shocks in the front (beef up the upper mounts while you're at that or you're not gaining anything), apart from renewing all the control arm bushes and ball joints, and of course, checking the springs for unwanted sag...

Just my two cents worth;

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Alejandro Gabatel
'91 1600
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Gav
Just got MTs


Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive got the hoodoo lift kit fitted i removed my anti rollbar when we lifted my niva.I cant say ive noticed any diffrence in handling on road increases articulation offroad so im happy Very Happy

Cheers Gav
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nitro_warrior
Just got MTs


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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Location: Edinburgh, UK



PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't got round to fitting my lift kit yet Embarassed

But I have taken off the anti-roll bar, at the same time I changed the rear tyres and i'm not sure which is to blame but since I did that the car seems more unstable above 60mph and the back steps out when cornering very easily, especially with slight lift off. Like I say it could be partly down to the new tyres though.
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gadgetboy
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Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Odometer: 1947
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Checked your brake bias valve Don?
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manos
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everybody

disconnecting the anti-roll bar and adding a pair of extra shocks (Alejandro's proposal in such a case) is also what the local dealer (and also a trial games participant) suggested.

The unstableness (?) of the car, described exactly like nitro_warrior has, is what two friends experienced when they disconnected the bars of their cars. One of them who uses the car daily on the road, has decided to put it back on almost immediately.

CORRECTION:

The other friend suggested that I could change the knukle arms (9) , the right goes to the left hand side (and left to right).




I think that this simplyfies the "French solution" (this is like a title from a 70's movie with spys and bad guys, isn't it ? Very Happy ).
He says he did it quite easily, and because of the mounts design the knukle arms are now coming from above the bar.

John, is that the solution that you describe here ?

hoodoo wrote:

I have tried moving the receiver arms from side to side so they could be mounted upside down, but that caused funny cornering habits! Maybe I got the fitting wrong so I'm going to get the grinder out in the next few days and try again!


Last edited by manos on Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gadgetboy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please read Nitro_Warrior's post carefully. He has removed the anti-roll bar but not fitted the lift kit.

One of the consequences of fitting any lift kit is also a stiffening of the front suspension as the front springs are compressed more. This helps to offset the removal of the anti-roll bar.

I would strongly recommend that this is not an "either/or" thing. You can't remove the anti-roll bar and not fit a lift and you can't fit a lift and not remove the anti-roll bar.

All the people who have said there is no problem removing the anti-roll bar have also a lift kit fitted.

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nitro_warrior
Just got MTs


Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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Location: Edinburgh, UK



PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gadgetboy wrote:
Please read Nitro_Warrior's post carefully. He has removed the anti-roll bar but not fitted the lift kit.

One of the consequences of fitting any lift kit is also a stiffening of the front suspension as the front springs are compressed more. This helps to offset the removal of the anti-roll bar.

I would strongly recommend that this is not an "either/or" thing. You can't remove the anti-roll bar and not fit a lift and you can't fit a lift and not remove the anti-roll bar.


That's not entirly true, fitting a lift kit won't make the the springs stiffer or compress them. If they compressed when you fitted the spacers there wouldn't be much point as the ride height would remain the same! Granted the shape will change a bit becuase of the wedges and the arc that the suspension swing-arm moves in but in any case (a mechanicaly perfect) spring has a constant stiffness until you get to the limits of its travel.

Changes in the vehicle's handling arise from the change in the suspension geometry and centre of mass.
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manos
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gadgetboy wrote:
Please read Nitro_Warrior's post carefully. He has removed the anti-roll bar but not fitted the lift kit.


manos wrote:

...described exactly like nitro_warrior has, is what two friends experienced when they disconnected the bars of their cars


I didn't intend to connect the bar with the lift in the previous post.
I was only trying to point out (if that is really so) that,
according to people that use the vehicle a great deal on the road too,
the removal of the bar affects somehow the behavior of the car.
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excossack
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what tyres do you have on the rear nitro?
had the same on my niva
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only speak for my experience over the last ten years of driving Nivas without anti-roll bars. I have had absolutely no problems whatsoever in road or off road use. I don't exactly hang around when driving on the road or going round corners, and I'm still here! Incidentally, that's with and without a lift kit fitted. Handling remained the same either way.

Anyway, a friend has made the mistake of leaving his standard Niva on my drive, and I was under it today looking at the anti-roll bar location. He doesn't know I've done this, so whether he'll be a friend for much longer is, perhaps, debatable! Laughing

Here's what I did:
Remove anti-roll bar.
Cut off/ drill out forward bolt of chassis mounting point and find longer bolts to fit, together with approx. 12mm of washers to space down each point.
Mounts on spring seat have two lips facing downwards, cut off the rearmost one on each side.
Before taking bar off, mark the ends that stick out from the rubber, approx. 23mm.
Cut these ends off so they don't interfere with the forward lip of the spring seat brackets.
Put everything back together with the bar ends under the brackets on the spring seats, and the forward bolts on the chassis mounts spaced down and longer bolts fitted there.
The anti-roll bar ends are now below the brackets on the spring seats, and will not interfere with the trackrod ends.
When jacked up, with both wheels hanging down, the bar pulls back into the rubber bush about 3mm, then resumes normal position when vehicle is lowered. I do not believe that the bar will pull out of the bush in use, and I am convinced that the bracket is still more than strong enough to take the loads generated.

Although this vehicle has not got the lift fitted, that should not be a problem, as the lift lowers the bottom arm and the spring seat stays in its original position. So the change should be valid regardless.

Let me know how you get on!!!!!
Regards,
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manos
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John you have a pm
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