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Crawler.. bike buggy..2 seater flat 4 variable diff pro warp
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Paul Woodward
Just got MTs


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Odometer: 488
Location: Swindon / Wiltshire



PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fantastic build, I've been following from the start!

There is some info on the Ashcrofts web site regarding the ZF boxes fitted to Landrovers;

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/frequen.../4hp22-faq-s.html


I have just fitted a reconditioned ZF autobox. I have filled the box with the correct amount of oil but have no drive at all, forward or reverse. Why?
The first thing to do is to remove the oil cooler pipe from the bottom of the gearbox (put a container under the open end to catch the oil) and start the engine. You should get a good flow of oil. If not the pump has been broken during installation and will need replacing/rebuilding. The torque convertor must be fitted to the gearbox, located correctly on the pump and locked into position before the gearbox is offered to the engine, otherwise damage will occur to the pump, resulting in no oil flow and subsequent to other parts of the autobox.

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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man this is a pain.

I pulled the sump guard off and took off the lower oil cooler hose. Ran the engine and NO flow !!!!!!!

I have another ZF torque converter on the bench so I examined it carefully. It appears to have engagement for 2 separate splined shafts and a larger sleeve with a cross cut castlation presumeably to drive the oil pump.

Great I thought, I have not fully engaged this last sleeve, so I managed to sneak the 3 torque plate bolts out (1mm clearance!!!) and thought I would be able to simply wiggle it back until it engaged .... But no luck, it appears to be exactly where it is supposed to be !

So I can spin the torque converter nice and easily and no oil is getting pumped ? What the heck has gone wrong ?

If anyone has one of these units out of your truck can you kindly measure the distance from the bell housing front flange (where is bolts to the box) to the top of the 3 mounting tabs on the back of the torque converter please, so I can do a final check.

Does anyone know how to kill a ZF pump ?

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3342
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can it be a plain old bleeding problem?
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul, Teamidris

Reading more about this, it appears that it is a common mistake to not engage the pump drive and to then damage the pump by bolting the box on and chewing the thing up. I don't think I've done this however as I have always been careful to get it correctly engaged first and i think there would be some evidence turning the shaft that wreckage had occurred, it spins very smoothly.

I'm starting to think there is a pick up pipe or seal missing or damaged, or a relief valve part missing, or even a pump part left out !

I can remove the sump in situ and have a look but not sure I know what I,m looking for. I think I will drag the whole machine to the guys who rebuilt the unit and ask them to explain what they think has gone wrong.

Hey ho ... Happy new year Shocked

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3342
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, but I've spent sooo much time fighting to get re-built stuff to suck oil that I'm still thinking that. Other than filling the box to the top I can't quite see how to check though?
Squirty can in the pressure test point and rotate the torque backward maybe?

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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you could be right. The box has been unused for at least 2 years and my latest theory is there could be a check valve on the pump inlet which has got stuck closed. I'm going to try sucking the pump delivery pipe or pressurising the sump.

Does anyone know about this please ? Is there a valve ? Can it be accessed from the sump ?

Fingers crossed it's this simple Very Happy

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is wierd. I have reconnected the torque converter and connected a huge syringe to the coolant circuit feed outlet. When I run the engine and force pints of oil in and out of the pump it's dead locked. So it's not a bleed problem or abust pump something has completely blocked the pump circuit up. The investigation continues.

Smile

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy


Last edited by Blue dragon on Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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swamijake
Gate Opener


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Odometer: 10




PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean by deadlocked? like there is no slip in the torque converter? or is it not willing to turn?
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swamijake
Gate Opener


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Odometer: 10




PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this link which lists the applications of the ZF auto. http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/united_state...tpasscartrans.pdf

It states the jag XJ40 was a 4HP24 which may be an electronic valve body. Does your transmission have an electronic plug on the side?
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Swamijake, thanks for your help here. I have pulled the sump pan off and checked out the suction side ... no issues there. I am baffled.

Those in the know think I have sheared off the 2 drive tags on the pump gear:



I confess Im not sure ... i don't remeber doing anything this careless / brutal and it doesnt explain why the pump line is dead headed (unless the broken off parts have jamed the gear). Anyway I have run out of ideas so I'm going to pull the damn thing out Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

Anyway a few pictures of it finished before I rip it apart again Shocked Shocked


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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote















I'm still smilling Very Happy Very Happy


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jon.g1
Articulating


Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Odometer: 753
Location: Taunton, Somerset, UK



PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That must be gutting, hopefully won't take you too long as I am, as everyone else I expect, eagerly await a video of your latest creation in action. Smile
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If you make it idiot proof...
They will make a better idiot!

Project Zulander
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randcook
Gate Opener


Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Odometer: 19
Location: Near Monmouth



PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant Build.

Love to see it compete against the brute force design;)

see video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzXVLbs41Ew

cheers
Peter
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swamijake
Gate Opener


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Odometer: 10




PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad you have to yank it. I doubt you broke the tangs. I've been fairly rough putting rover transmissions on to engines and never broke the tangs. I did have a problem where I hadn't engaged the torque converter all the way and even though it was all bolted up didn't get any pressure from the pump. I loosened it all up, gave it a good shake and spun things around, and when tightened back up it was good to go.

I've always been told that you are supposed to put the torque converter into the trans before attaching the engine, but sometimes that just doesn't work. I've always managed to get it to slip in properly in the end. Its kind of weird where it feels like it is in place, but needs a good shake around and then slides in an extra quarter of an inch.

Rest of buggy looking fantastic!
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unimogler
Winch Assistant


Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Odometer: 93




PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: torque converter Reply with quote

hi, got my landy buddy around today and he has had this problem several times, he says that its better to put the torque converter into the gearbox first . it can feel like its fully meshed when not . be aware that if you rock the converter as you push it on the pump splines it will also turn the pump so you need to visualy line up the splines of the pump and when It slides together correctly there should be two distinct movments. also just checking are you running the original ecu as it will not work without the engine ecu as they need to talk to each other, one fix would be compushift. fred and lewis the landy man'
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. I have pulled it all apart. Turns out I am a complete idiot. I designed the bell housing with one torque converter and then 2 years later I modified a different converter for the Subaru ring gear and they are half an inch different heights. It's good to know what the problem is, however the fix is actually quite complicated as I have to modify the drive plate, bell housing, starter motor and torque converter, hey ho.

The box has no ECU it's the older mechanical unit. :
Surprised

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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jeepmadmike
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 08 May 2005
Odometer: 4573
Location: between 6000+7000 rpm and Devon



PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I can't imagine your the sort of guy who walked out of the garage swearing and throwing tools at the wife...

Bit of a annoyance but it's all part of the challenge Laughing

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Land Rovers are the root of all evil!

Now i have gone and bought a D4!

one day i might buy a 86" series one like my dad had when i was a boy.
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At times like this she removes all sharp objects from the shed. LOL. Very Happy
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nj111
Just got MTs


Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Odometer: 165
Location: Forest of Dean



PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The person that never made a mistake never made anything!
It's a superb all round build right through from design concept - thinking outside the box, to every minute engineering detail. Keep the updates coming please!
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swamijake
Gate Opener


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Odometer: 10




PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates?
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FlatBlack
Gate Opener


Joined: 18 Feb 2013
Odometer: 10
Location: America



PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

x2

Cannot believe the single seater went so cheap. I would have given that for it, plus shipping to the States and had a blast with it...

Have a 2014 RZR XP1000 now for some fun in the dirt. They are a real kick in the pants after you fix all the stuff Polaris bodged up on them during assembly.

Looking forward to seeing this one complete.
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muddyzook
Just got MTs


Joined: 29 May 2006
Odometer: 393
Location: Dudley



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think his exact words where

"this is amazing!"



I'm sure he will be along soon to tell you all about it

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Suzuki Disc Conversions and other mods for SJ, Vitara and Jimny @ muddyzook.co.uk
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check this out ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXMXA7-zuuk

Very Happy

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Builder of Citroen / Suzuki lightweight rock crawler and super lightweight Bike engined 4x4 buggy
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Eclipsed4ever
Just got MTs


Joined: 05 May 2012
Odometer: 190
Location: Hereford



PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As expected, this looks awesome! More videos/pictures/information required! Congratulations on an excellent build! Very Happy
__________________________________
2.2 Vtec 4WS Single Seater - aka Screamer - UK Champion 2013 + 2014
3.0lr V6 4WS - Screamer 2 - UK Champion 2015 + 2016 + 2017
Eurotrial 2nd in Prototype Class 2018
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3232



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue dragon wrote:
Check this out ...


Link

Very Happy



Wow - some lovely movement there
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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3342
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that is as good as I could have imagined. It all moves so well!
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Blue dragon
Just got MTs


Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Odometer: 180
Location: Midlands UK



PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid the first ever run lasted 5 mins before the steering pump exploded.

Bad points: I can't get all the air out of the warp circuit so it has a floppy zone at the moment and flips either side of upright! The steering is weak and yet the pump is blowing fuses below 30 amps ! The torque converter is very snatchy.

Good points: it Simply floats over anything !! Diffs are amazing if you pull them 1/2 on you keep some steering and yet you can feel all wheels gripping. The warp idea works better than expected. I knew that the axles would twist and keep wheels on the ground but the highlight is the weight is also shared on all wheels while it does this, even when the nose is in a hole or in the air, it feels like the body is attracted to the ground rather than pushed away from it by springs. The retention of grip is amazing.

Development will continue Shocked

Meanwhile, here is a picture of us trying to get the air out of the hydraulics, notice the spirit level !




[img]

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swamijake
Gate Opener


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Odometer: 10




PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spectacular!
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mike328
Articulating


Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Odometer: 793
Location: Suffolk!



PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on getting the hydraulics bled up; is there a way to use an external pump on the warp circuit using a shut off and plant style 'no loss' quick release connectors to sort of pressure bleed the system? or run it open with a header tank (effectively with no warp and the body flopping about) cycling suspension until airs out then shutoff the inlet? just ideas not sure if it makes complete sense....
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StrikerofDeath
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love these projects
you can use a vacuum pump to try get air out!
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