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Crawler.. bike buggy..2 seater flat 4 variable diff pro warp
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micky1
Just got MTs


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Odometer: 353
Location: Bath



PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks braced around the top with the roll bar to suspension mounts etc.
The tub is under-slung really by the looks of it with only the drivers weight to hold?

Great design IMO. loving the lack of springs and the hp of the engine,had one of those vts's as a kid and it flew.
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Lewis
Winch Assistant


Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Odometer: 85




PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

micky1 wrote:
loving the lack of springs

The Airshox are both spring and damper, and check strap for that matter

The buggy above seems to use them as bump stops too, which is bad, very bad
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonerattler
l know it takes a while to get to grips with "no chassis" my first thoughts were along the lines of, it will rip all the suspension points out, or it will twist its self to bits, but l am coming round to the idea, after all many commercial airliners were built with aluminum and rivets for decades and many are still flying, and before the use of carbon fiber became wide spread many racing cars including formula 1 were constructed with ally and rivets, with double skinning in suitable areas an ally tub can be immensely strong ( l hope ) l believe the lotus elsie has a aluminum chassis that is bonded together ( not welded or riveted ) and no one worries about it falling apart ( do they ? ) but mark likes to push the boundaries, and if it falls apart he will just make it stronger next time
it was literally finished on friday and given a run out on sat, l'm sure many more tests will be completed before it goes into competition so lots of time to check for cracks and splits !
looking at the rear suspension the lower arms, the top A arm and the shocks all locate on to two pressed steel rails that run vertically up the back of the tub joining the roll bar/cage, thus spreading all the loads out over a wide area rather than concentrating them at the fixing points.

lewis
he did tell me what the shocks were pressurized to but l cant really remember might have been 12 bar but not sure, l think some more runs are planed to try different pressures out, l assume pressure affects ride height as well as handling ?

as for the excavators the 812 is my old favorite, slow but sure, its easy to see why jcb lost out to the jap machines they are like racing cars compared to my old baby, down at the other end of the field l keep the o&k same size and weight as the 812 ( 13 tons ) but the levers are all **** about face made it really difficult to learn at first as l use both machines regularly but the human brain is so clever that l can now hop from machine to machine and operate them with out thinking about it, but you should have seen the carnage whilst l was learning, devastation everywhere

andy


Last edited by baloo on Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lewis
Winch Assistant


Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Odometer: 85




PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12bar Nitrogen pressure equates to 174psi, which gives a spring rate of 192lbs/inch, which feels quite high for a buggy of 500kilo. Looking at the photo's of it sat on level ground the airshox appear to be at approximately 10 inch extension, if not more.

If we assume that the airshox is at exactly 10inch extension, and the pressure is 12bar then the sprung weight of the buggy is actually 3072lbs or 1393 kilo, which obviously is incorrect

If we assume that the buggy is 500kg with an even distribution of mass then to have the airshox compressed by 4" at ride height the airshox should be pressurised to 62psi, to give 68.75lbs/inch

Obviously the calc above does not account for uneven distribution of weight, the weight of the driver, or indeed the distribution of mass between unsprung and sprung.

Having said that my calculations may be fundamentally flawed

There is an in depth tech article relating to Airshox on Pirate
Link: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Airshox/index.html

If your man is intending to compete in comp safari he should take a look at the Pirate forums - there has been much discussion regarding the suitability of Airshox for speed events. They do suffer from heat fade


Baloo: Thanks for the photo, look like its in better condition than our machine - we have an earlier 20ton 807 - I know what you mean about the controls - when swapping between the JCB and a modern machine with ISO pattern levers it can get a bit hairy at times Rolling Eyes
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

l would imagine most of us have been here at some stage











andy


Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Diesel Destroyer
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Odometer: 6921
Location: Under the truck covered in EP90



PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im glad he decided against using a dog as a steering wheel and went for the more commanly used wheel.. Laughing
__________________________________
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http://muddybuggy.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45&start=80
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Steveb
Gate Opener


Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Odometer: 44
Location: Suffolk



PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a superbly engineered comp motor Andy , lots of thought gone into that. Would love to know the wieght of it , certainly looks light. What sort of dia/wall thickness is the cage?

When and where will he be taking it out to compete?

Cheers

Steve
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi folks

mark has sent me the specs of his machine, copied straight over from his email,
1.2 m think about that for a bit


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

for the record you could cut and paste in the following if you like ...

YJ 410 axles, diffs inverted to reverse drive, Front and rear roll
centres
450mm (ie near C of G axis), Low as possible C of G. Sump, battery, bum
etc
all on the floor pan.

YJ 410 drive shafts swapped front and rear, YJ 410 RHD steering box
swapped
to other side, had to make steering arm from water cut 30mm plate !

14" Fox air shox via Milner, 7 Bar fronts, 11 Bar rear running on Argon
at
the moment. Can change oils to tune damping. Can get any wheel about
1.2m
off the ground without lifting the other 3 ... Had to use metro ball
joints
where rose joints didn't have enough angle!

Citroen BX 1600 all ally engine and gearbox, wiring nigthmare.
Daihatsu
cooling pack.
3mm 303 series ally tub, 38mm CDS roll hoops, All wishbones 28mm CDS,
All
brackets and tube 2mm thick.

Weight reduction ideas include: No chassis, no transfer case, no
springs, no
boosters, no steering pump, no transmission or foot brake, 1/2 width
cage,
drilled discs, turned down hubs and drums, 1 gallon tank (still to come
are
dry battery and alloy wheels)


Please ask if anyone out there has some locking diffs !


I attach a few last pics that I have which show the axle travel etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


any body got any locking diffs for sale ?
l assume he means arb's as lock rights wouldn't un lock on the mud to allow the fiddles to work
and l will post up some more pics later tonight

andy
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi steveb
there you go, 38mm cds tube, ask and you will be answered, well partially any way since l don't know how heavy it is or when it will go out on its first event.
but l will be over on sat to collect my unimog,

lewis there you go 7 bar and 11 bar on argon ( does that make a difference then ) going back to excavators l am on the look out for a bigger machine 20 ton plus or perhaps a bull dozer to carve a track out with

diesel destroyer
whats wrong with furry steering wheel covers, l see enough about someone must like em,

andy
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..

Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and a couple more











Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steveb
Gate Opener


Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Odometer: 44
Location: Suffolk



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

baloo wrote:
hi steveb
there you go, 38mm cds tube, ask and you will be answered, well partially any way since l don't know how heavy it is or when it will go out on its first event.
but l will be over on sat to collect my unimog,



andy


See you saturday then . If you bring your camera you can get some photos of the front engine mount and rear body mounts.Its all stripped and ready.

back on topic , thanks for the spec list, keep the info /pic's coming this build is setting new standards for comp 4x4s.

cheers

Steveb
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 more
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Diesel Destroyer
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Odometer: 6921
Location: Under the truck covered in EP90



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im in LOVE


I just get over how trick that is!!

Allan

__________________________________
Link to my current project build thread

http://muddybuggy.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45&start=80
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alan
should there be a can't in there somewhere ?
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Diesel Destroyer
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Odometer: 6921
Location: Under the truck covered in EP90



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cant wait to drag him out of it and drive off into the sunset in it??

lol

Im like a little kid.. my face aches from smiling.. Laughing

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Link to my current project build thread

http://muddybuggy.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=45&start=80
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big_patrol
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Odometer: 2620
Location: Rossendale


1998 Nissan patrol

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is by far the greatest thing i have ever seen on differs i want one.
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Everybody welcome to trials club, visit www.ncortc.com every third sunday of the month
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suzukishrek
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Odometer: 2815
Location: Derbyshire


1995 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is...

It's absolutely...

And I just...

Ooooh, plhewreghhh * pauses to wipe up dribble and shut mouth *.

I've just become very hard of English as I can't find the words. WOW. Like. Want. Need. Must have.

I'm on my way down to you now Andy. Laughing

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Graham.
=============================
Want to play offroad? Visit www.paynplay.co.uk to find offroad playsites.
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi graham
you got a wet key board as well, dribble dribble, you are welcome to come down and see me any time, however the buggy is not here, if it were l wouldn't be posting pictures of it, l would be out driving it,













Last edited by baloo on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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suzukishrek
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Odometer: 2815
Location: Derbyshire


1995 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baloo wrote:
...you are welcome to come down and see me any time

Cheers lad, much appreciated and it's a shame we missed each other last time - I think I was going South as you were going North. Laughing

baloo wrote:
however the buggy is not here, if it were l wouldn't be posting pictures of it, l would be out driving it,

Well, that's just another excuse to get it there again then. Rolling Eyes

baloo wrote:
interestingly mark has all the dimension's and cut files on cd !!! so it wouldn't be difficult to produce another or several !!

Ooh, now that gives me an idea... in fact in breathes new life into an old idea actually. Yep, I'll definitely have to pop down and see you at some point. Very Happy

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Graham.
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bum_face
Just got MTs


Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Odometer: 101
Location: bacup



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lookin goood
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Kitesurf
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Odometer: 14197
Location: Luton, Beds


1994 Toyota Surf

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say no transfer box, is it a front wheel drive engine with one drive shaft going to each axle diff?

That buggy has to be the most innovative machine in the UK (or even Europe - I don't suppose there is anything like it across the pond either).

I don't know what it is doing to other people but it is getting the idea cogs whirring around in my brainbox. Think

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Motorist who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon sentenced to appear on Top Gear.
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suzukishrek
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Odometer: 2815
Location: Derbyshire


1995 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kitesurf (Phil) wrote:
When you say no transfer box, is it a front wheel drive engine with one drive shaft going to each axle diff?

I read it that way too Phil and it's not a new subject, hell even I brought it up in a diesel engine and gearbox thread some while back... and I can't claim original ownership of the idea. Don't forget the diff is welded too.

kitesurf (Phil) wrote:
I don't know what it is doing to other people but it is getting the idea cogs whirring around in my brainbox. Think

Oh yes Phil, oh yes. Watch this space. Laughing

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Kitesurf
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Odometer: 14197
Location: Luton, Beds


1994 Toyota Surf

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know we were discussing the idea about 18 months ago, heck I even suggested it on the Surf forum...................... oh how they laughed. Laughing
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Nigel Head
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Odometer: 3886
Location: Mid Devon


1990 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read it as a transverse engine & box, turned through 90 degress to run the drive fore & aft, with welded transverse diff, thereby in effect like the t-box on std zook, with no centre diff.
Axles still have open diffs, so no big issue off road.

I'm quietly impressed with the innovation and of the engineering.


Nigel.

__________________________________
Heck - it's only a hobby!


Last edited by Nigel Head on Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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baloo
Articulating


Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Odometer: 940
Location: Redditch



PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi phil
yes you read it correctly, it is a front wheel drive engine and box turned round 90 deg and the diff welded up to ensure that drive goes to both the front and back axle of the buggy, as graham says the idea is not new. in fact very little is new in the automotive world, what sets this build apart is marks engineering skills, attention to detail and the desire to be as light as possible, the main reason for choosing the Citroen engine was its weight or lack of it to be more precise, there are many more engines out there that will provide much greater power, such as vauxhall 2lt 16v red top, ford zetec, Toyota mr2 1.6 or 2 lt, or even rover/Honda 2.7 V6 24v, but most of these engines would twist the poor old 410 half shafts up like toffee, so you would need bigger axles and so the circle continues, the axles were chosen as the lightest easily available
and the same with the engine, the props are also standard 410 items, so easily replaced should they fail, interestingly standard suzuki props when mated up to the Citroen gear box produce a wheel base of 79" which is 1 " greater than the minimum allowed by the awdc so 79" it is then.
h'mm Honda 2.7 V6 24v be in the super car bracket l would think
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Lewis
Winch Assistant


Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Odometer: 85




PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using a transverse engine and box mounted longitudinally is hardly a new concept Rolling Eyes

Many triallers use this arrangement

I friend has been trialling a Jimny based tube frame buggy with this arrangemet for over 2 years IIRC

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Barnyzuki
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The single cage with the engine and gearbox as the passenger side scares me.
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suzukishrek
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Odometer: 2815
Location: Derbyshire


1995 Toyota Landcruiser

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lewis wrote:
Using a transverse engine and box mounted longitudinally is hardly a new concept Rolling Eyes

And nobody here is claiming it is a new concept! Rolling Eyes However, the way the truck has been brought together as a whole is what everybody is raving about rather than individual concepts.

Barnyzuki wrote:
The single cage with the engine and gearbox as the passenger side scares me.

What - as opposed to an engine in the front (because that's safer Silenced ) and probably no cage as is the case with the vast majority of trucks?

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Lewis
Winch Assistant


Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Odometer: 85




PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

suzukishrek © wrote:
Lewis wrote:
Using a transverse engine and box mounted longitudinally is hardly a new concept Rolling Eyes

And nobody here is claiming it is a new concept! Rolling Eyes

The last few posts read like you are all congratulating yourselves on having thought it up
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