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rory-ray Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 Nov 2012 Odometer: 76 Location: Bristol/Dundry
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: Running a external roll cage off box section sills.
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My Vitara is in the process of getting some box sills welded on, I'm getting some box section this week.
For a flush fit around 70mm/80mm is needed, but if I'm planning to run a external cage I'm guessing ill need something that's going to act as a step so I got something to weld to?
Say the roll bar is 2.25 thick I'm guessing ill need some rectangular box section at around 150mm x 80mm? To allow for welding ?
Sorry for a silly question I just want to get it right,thanks![/i]
__________________________________ 1998 Vitara Hardtop Currently In Pieces In The Garage. |
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mike328 Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014 Odometer: 793 Location: Suffolk!
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject:
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yeap, or do the flush fit sill and then weld a tubular tree/rock slider to it to support your cage? or bring down tubes through your wing to meet the flush fitted sill. It needs to be pretty strong if you want to survive a big roll, most cages are welded to chassis, just remember your body is rubber mounted before you go welding it into the body and then tie into your chassis.
__________________________________ Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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rory-ray Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 Nov 2012 Odometer: 76 Location: Bristol/Dundry
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject:
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I thought i was on to something, god knows how! Haha.
I'm running tublar wings up front, as vitara wings are always getting bent and replacements are always rotten!
With the cage I was looking at running a 2x hoops one in front the door and around the screen and one up and around the b pillar, x brace the top, brace just above the scuttle then run the tublar wings off the front off it and weld them onto the winch bumper that's welded to the chassis.
I won't fix anything to the body, not even a cup holder would stay on there!!!
__________________________________ 1998 Vitara Hardtop Currently In Pieces In The Garage. |
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mike328 Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014 Odometer: 793 Location: Suffolk!
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:46 pm Post subject:
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If you want the cage to go where you were planning (that goes from wings to bumper to chassis) you could solid mount the body using ally blocks or something to stop the body/chassis moving so independently of each other? I don't know if people do this but I have been considering it for my own truck
__________________________________ Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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RichMayo Just got MTs
Joined: 04 Feb 2013 Odometer: 413 Location: Yate
1997 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:05 pm Post subject:
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I've been wondering about this myself for a bit. I was going to try and get the sills as flush and compact as possible when replacing with box section and then fix the cage to the chassis as I also want to mount "wing" guards to the front bumper.
Other thought was too replace box section used in body lift with lengths of box section to make a sort of outrigger and re-use what already exists of the body mounts (probably needs strengthening though). I've a looked at it a few times. I don't think its straight forward though.
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mike328 Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014 Odometer: 793 Location: Suffolk!
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject:
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My vague plan is to make a body mounted cage using box sills as mountings and not attach it to the bumpers or chassis. I know its a bit unorthodox but I think for my purposes as tree slider/slight topple over protection it should be fine..
I have toyed with fitting some poly bushes between body mounted wing bars and chassis mounted winch bumper to absorb some flex..?
Also wondered whether a steel wing bar would have enough flex to twist and bend with the body/chassis without breaking? That would be something that i'd experiment with but not advise....
__________________________________ Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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Xpajun Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:50 pm Post subject:
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A roll cage mounted to the chassis will take the weight of the chassis and it's weighty parts - engine, transmission, axles
A roll cage mounted to the body is not going to stop the chassis and it's associated weighty parts from crushing the body from underneath....
Guess which I'd choose
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rory-ray Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 Nov 2012 Odometer: 76 Location: Bristol/Dundry
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:09 pm Post subject:
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I just want a cage to.protect the truck really, "tree wacker cage" I don't plan going too mad off road with it unlike my last ones but then and again I said that before........
__________________________________ 1998 Vitara Hardtop Currently In Pieces In The Garage. |
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Xpajun Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:54 pm Post subject:
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The problem - I think -
We buy a truck, we go off-roading, we get stuck
We stick on mud tyres, we go off-roading, we get stuck
We lift it, we stick on bigger extreme tyres, we go off-roading, we get stuck
We fit a winch, we go off-roading, we get stuck
We nearly tip it, we fit a cage, we go off-roading, we do a big roll.....
Plan for the worse cus one day... you know it's gonna happen
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mike328 Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014 Odometer: 793 Location: Suffolk!
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:21 am Post subject:
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Xpajun wrote: | Plan for the worse cus one day... you know it's gonna happen |
Words of wisdom if I ever read them!
So should we forget weird and wonderful home cage design and follow the MSA rule book?
It is hard to properly triangulate an external cage (and still be able to open and close doors..etc..) So how about a safety devices internal cage to save your life if the worst comes to the worst, and some basic tree slider bars outside to protect roof gutters, sills and windscreen?
__________________________________ Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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rory-ray Winch Assistant
Joined: 15 Nov 2012 Odometer: 76 Location: Bristol/Dundry
1998 Suzuki Vitara
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject:
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Cant argue with that.
Any time someone brings up the idea of building some sort of cage people always bring up the same thing, "get a proper one you will roll it and die"
And obviously there is a chance of.it happening but on the flip side how many people do you see at pay and play places ( more serious ones) with cages?...
How many people on this forum with 4x4s that go out light offloading, greenlining etc have cages?
Not many.
I want something to protect the truck from trees etc, ill look into protecting myself when and if I start going hard offroad.
I've toppled over a few times while at funny angles nothing to worry about, a broken mirror and some dents.
If I was going off silly drops and silly angles near danger I'd get a proper cage, but I know my limits without one.
__________________________________ 1998 Vitara Hardtop Currently In Pieces In The Garage. |
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Xpajun Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008 Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject:
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rory-ray wrote: |
How many people on this forum with 4x4s that go out light offloading, greenlining etc have cages?
Not many.
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I didn't
I was driving slowly at the time - there was a deep track running up to my left which I didn't know about (and stupidly didn't get out of the truck to check my line) one 180º roll later...
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mike328 Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014 Odometer: 793 Location: Suffolk!
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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject:
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ouch!
would your average non triangulated external windscreen hoop have helped? not much I guess...?
Most proper safety devices (other brands are available) cages are designed like a crumple zone so to protect the driver not the vehicle in a big off (with a driver "safety cell" in the middle).
How would you go about designing an external cage that would protect the vehicle in a small slow roll so that windscreen still fits and doors still open and close?
__________________________________ Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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Alex90 Articulating
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Odometer: 861 Location: preston, Lancashire
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject:
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I've seen jimny cages mounted to the rock sliders but that will only be as strong as the outriggers mounting the rock sliders to the chassis. The main reason id buy one rather than make one is liability. If someone gets killed due to a dodgy weld or something you can point the finger at someone else.
__________________________________ 54 reg l200 warrior in black. 2" lift, rough country shocks with prototype bolt on relocation brackets, ralliart power upgrade, egr blanked, realtree camo truckman top, straight through side exit exhaust. |
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stodd Just got MTs
Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Odometer: 266 Location: Kent
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject:
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Many many hair cuts ago I had a bob-tail pick-up discovery with a roll cage welded to box section rock sliders. It got some serious stick, laying on the floor and trees, and saved the body panels no end. I competed in that truck several times in events with scrutineering rules laid out by the MSA. As i said this was a while ago, so i would check he current regs. if you need it to be up to scratch, but it met the rules and worked fine.
If your truck is a hard top, in the event of a roll over the body work should be capable of keeping it's shape well enough for you to be able to get out. As mine was turned into a pick-up i thought some of the integrity had gone from the shell, so we built a cage.
It had to have at least one complete hoop with no joins in it. This went around the B pillar, the front hoop was a complicated shape and had to be made in several bits.
The diagonal brace in the rear hoop had to go from above the drivers head, to the opposite bottom corner. (Top right to bottom left for mine)
It had to have braces from the top of the rear hoop, down to the chassis at the back of the vehicle with no bends in them.
The out riggers which held the rock sliders to the chassis had to be a certain size too. 100X100 box section i think
__________________________________ Stodd
I couldnt fix your brakes, so i made your horn louder ! |
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nivapaul Articulating
Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Odometer: 693 Location: Birmingham
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:18 am Post subject:
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I rolled my niva years ago without doing anything that seemed serious.
Since then I roll cage my cars .
Search for my niva pickup project I did an external cage on that to box section.
__________________________________ (NIVAD) |
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TJ_in_Dubai Just got MTs
Joined: 24 Oct 2011 Odometer: 371 Location: Dubai, UAE
1997 Jeep Wrangler
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:26 am Post subject:
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I went for a bit of a roll once. Launched off a dune with a tad too much gusto and rolled end over end and then onto its side.....
Thankfully Jeeps have a (half) cage as standard. Not upto an regs but they do OK for slow speed tumbles.
This is her as she lay - the aftermath!
And this is her back on her feet after a little assistance from the loader behind.
__________________________________ Wrangler TJ 4.0 Sport
33x12x15's
4.88 R&P's |
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GVstu Mud Obsessed
Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Odometer: 2314 Location: Northumberland
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:29 pm Post subject:
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Here's a picture of my old Jimny that had tubes off box section, the cage wasn't too snug though and it only got used in anger once...
p.s. I think this is still going around somewhere.
__________________________________ He asked me if I'd seen a road with so much dust and sand; And I said, "Listen! I've traveled every road in this here land!" |
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Scrunt44 Just got MTs
Joined: 11 Apr 2016 Odometer: 137 Location: Scotland.
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:34 pm Post subject:
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Good thread revival.
Mine is similar but much less of a cage.
The Box Section is not the sills of the body, they are coming off the chassis.
As build by Protection & Performance for KAP Suzuki.
http://ppcages.com
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