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110 XS Defender v L200 Barbarian
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject: 110 XS Defender v L200 Barbarian Reply with quote

I've had my L200 now for a couple of weeks and I've done about 2500 miles in almost all conditions (not been off road yet) including towing so here are a few of my thoughts.

Comfort
The Defender seats are easier on the backside on a very long run but the Barbarian seats have more lumbar support. Mine doesn't have heated seats but newer one do Crying or Very sad
The seat base is adjustable but just from one mediocre position to another!
The L200 is so much quieter it's just not funny, the downside is I then go faster and use more fuel!
Rear seats: less space and less comfort all round say my daughters.
Now, everyone complains about the lack of space for the driver in the Defender and that is much better on the L200 but oddly I find it very hard to get the driving position just right. The relative distances between pedals, steering wheel and seat is not variable enough - would it cost so much more to have a reach adjustable steering column?

Interior
The quality of the plastics, the dash and the fittings are so much better on the Defender, so much so I'm worried about taking it on the L200 apart too many times to fit stuff in case it all loosens off. Obviously the assembly is better on the L200 than my 110 - it was my major gripe.
I miss the big cubby box - the one in the L200 barely holds a sandwich and a can of juice.
Toys: The balance is about the same. Defender has heated seats/windscreen more effective aircon but the L200 has better ICE and an information display with a few useful bits of info.

Practicality
I knew I was compromising heavily on towing capacity and the flexibility of the 'estate' body but on my first long transport job I find the limits. I was taking my [empty] trailer down to have a cover put on it and had to take my roll-out awning which is 2.2m long but only 4" diameter with me. I had carried the awning several times inside the 110 without any problems simply by half folding down a rear seat. It can only go inside the L200 by poking through the rear windows which is hardly practical.
Towing an empty tri-axle trailer (weight 850kg) is hellish. It pulls and tracks beautifully but come to a corner you are in danger of being pushed around. It's better in 4wd but still not anywhere near the surefootedness of the Defender and then you have the juddering. The trailer hitch is standard height but the L200 towbar is quite low (even on the higher fitting) so an unloaded trailer can't put enough nose weight on the car so it bounces and judders all the time. After 5 hours of that I was utterly worn out and I can only hope that with the cover on the extra 100kg and the wind resistance helps.

Manoeuvring the trailer was about the same despite the longer wheelbase because of the better turning circle but, and this is a MAJOR issue, it CANNOT be used in low ratio on anything apart from very loose or slippy surfaces. I pulled the trailer out the driveway in low box (as suggested by Mitsubishi Master Techs) and the transmission windup was horrible even on packed gravelly surface. I have worked out a work around but it is not one that will work for ever.

Fuel consumption and performance
The extra power and acceleration of the L200 is very nice but I have definitely made a mistake with the auto box which is old fashioned and clunky - tough titty on that one!
Fuel consumption is slightly better than the Defender especially on a long run but not enough to get interested by.

Overall? I'm satisfied with my decision to change but not delighted. Having looked and test driven all the pickups and most of the available 'estate' passenger 4x4s I am 100% convinced that there is nothing to touch the Landrover products. The Defender, when assembled properly is a brilliant workhorse and exceptional value for money over its lifetime and I do not give a flying F as to why people will pay over the odds for them but given an equivalent spec jap pickup is as or more expensive than the XS brand new 83% residual value after 2.5 yrs and 40k miles is remarkable.

So if I had the money to buy any 4x4 I wanted, which would I buy? A Disco 4 HSE TDV6 with 8 speed auto. All the comfort, space, practicality, toys, off road and towing capacity AND a proper 4wd system. When will I buy one? Once I can afford one, and that is not likely to be in the immediate future Crying or Very sad So if everyone start buying first aid kits and travel vaccines from me I would be very appreciative Laughing

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** GED **
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 110 XS Defender v L200 Barbarian Reply with quote

i can start sneezing at people if that helps?

out of all that, these three words caught my attention


RichardD wrote:
The Defender, when assembled properly


seems to be what i said all along, what mike has also said in another thread.

Landrover are the british motorcycle industry all over again.


glad you`re happy with the L200 though. Cool
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is Ged, it's not "Landrover" it is some of the later model Defenders. I know half a dozen guys with 110s and 90s from 2012 and later who've not had the problems I've had, and those problems all sorted out with argument by the Dealer.

By contrast, all I get from the local Mitsubishi dealer is denials, refusal to consider things as warranty, yes the L200 is far from perfect and will be going back in for a few things to be sorted but each and every item will be a fight if today's phone call was anything to go by.

I am satisfied with the L200, I choose my words carefully. It is what I expected; a jelly mould jap crap vehicle designed and built down to a price for the commercial market with lots of inexpensive toys instead of a fully functioning drivetrain. I mean, why fit drum brakes as standard right across the range but then fit higher spec versions with leather seats and surround sound and satnav? Bread and circuses IMO.

The L200 is well assembled but from vastly inferior parts e.g. the door seals don't seal properly (wind noise), the plastics are nasty, the seats are no better than the LR ones ...... and spec for spec they are the same price.

Practicality and value for money (for my uses) Landrover wins, but you are right, if my Defender had been assembled properly I would still have it. Do I miss it? Not really. Do I get pangs when I see a Defender on the road? Nope, not a bit of it but I'm starting to when I see a D4.

Maybe, once I've done a few events and used the L200 as a pickup and a workhorse I'll change my mind but in the meantime I know I've made the right decision.

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny you should post this as I'm a pickup fan and think they're great value and a good all rounder. They're not the best at any individual thing but adequate at everything. My boss has been looking at them as his audi keeps breaking down, the all rounder attributes and value appeal to him. I don't know if he will buy one as the comfort and performance is a huge step down from an audi.

His comments on the l200 were it's cheaply made, poor plastic and nasty looking wiring. Its positives are that it drives more car like than my rodeo apart from being noisier on the motorway. Plus they're selling them off cheap as there is a new one coming out soon

He's going to drive a dmax soon so we'll see what he thinks to that :/

I agree proper 4wd would be nice and there are goods and bads to each setup of the tub. However a defender is 10k more so you can't expect it to have the same hardware. A discovery is no comparison in any form!

I like my rodeo, I can go on site, I can carry a 500kg mould, I can take the family out at the weekend, I can tow the land rover and the caravan, I can bring the stinking dogs back from a walk without them stinking the car out and what I like most is despite having 72k on it it drives and looks the same now as it did the day it was new and the only failure so far has been I lost 2 of the speeds on the heater fan.

Enjoy Smile

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** GED **
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im after one of these



same cavernous interior as my musso but a 500 kilo bed to load with oil and horse stuff.


all the ones in this country were rotted out in the bed though as it was the only bit that wasnt galvanised.

a very nice man did offer me one but i was skint at the time.! Crying or Very sad
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:
However a defender is 10k more so you can't expect it to have the same hardware.


A brand new Defender 110XS is ~£27,500 and a new L200 Barbarian with the cover and bed liner is ~£26,500. Used examples are a slightly different matter but still not £10k difference.

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A new barbarian might be 25k, but the base model pickup is 15k which is the same car less leather and alloys etc. Therefore the basic car still has to make the manufacturer a profit at 15k which is where my point comes in regarding not getting things like proper full time 4wd.

Last time I looked a 27k defender didn't have satnav, reverse camera, climate control and whatever other bling the 25k pickup has over the 15k pickup.

I'm not anti defender, I love them, but you have to consider the Barbarian etc is the equivalent of the many compaines that stick loads of bling on defenders and ask 40k plus. They give you a rattly diesel defender with lots of leather, the barbarian is a rattly diesel pickup with lots of leather, just cheaper therefore you would expect it to have less features somewhere along the line.

Do you have a tri axle trailer? If so they do tend to push on, try putting some weight in the back of the pickup. Remember they're on leafs intended to carry a tonne so will bounce when empty!

Also you can get the L200 and Amarok with coil springs at the rear if your willing to pay for it.

I have to say I really don't know why your trying any other vehicle, it's clear you love your defenders and in your mind nothing else will stack up, which is fine, it suits you, you like it, why did you go away from it?

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:
A new barbarian might be 25k, but the base model pickup is 15k which is the same car less leather and alloys etc. Therefore the basic car still has to make the manufacturer a profit at 15k which is where my point comes in regarding not getting things like proper full time 4wd.

Do you have a tri axle trailer? If so they do tend to push on, try putting some weight in the back of the pickup. Remember they're on leafs intended to carry a tonne so will bounce when empty!

Also you can get the L200 and Amarok with coil springs at the rear if your willing to pay for it.


If you compare like with like then the difference does increase the lower down the range you go but even so a base 110 double cab pickup is £21,300 compared to the £18,550 Mitsubishi are asking. Mind you, this is all before one might negotiate and its totally academic given there are no more Defenders available to order (or so they claim!).

It's well known that the manufacturers make much more money on the dressed up models because people love gadgets.

Yes, I do have a tri-axle, bought deliberately to track better but whilst I didn't notice the 'pushing on' with the Defender I do with the L200 but only when in 2wd. It is totally fine in 4wd and the superselect system is just brilliant so I can plan ahead and slide it into 4wd when I need it.

I've only towed an empty trailer but other L200 owners report the same even with lighter trailers. I'll throw some sacks of something heavy into the L200 for the return trip next week and see if weight in the bed and/or weight on the nose of the trailer helps. It's not lethal, just mildly unpleasant and tiring over a long distance

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that it matters now I guess but a dealer has offered us a new Barbarian in any colour but grey with a hard top for £20k as they're getting rid before the new one comes out.

The local Ford commercial dealer sends us a monthly stock list and there are always Ranger Wildtraks with 50 miles on for £22k.

I believe the L200 and the 4motion Amarok are the only ones that can run on the road in 4wd which is a real bonus and I wish mine even had the option as I would rather it was just there rather than having to pre-empt it.

It's such a popular international market I don't know why land rover don't offer a none defender pickup, they could use a lot of the freelander parts but on a chassis. They're bringing out a new 4cyl diesel engine soon which has been designed to be expandable from 3cyl to 6cyl with 500cc per cyl. That would give the perfect options for the fleet buyer or owner driver in my opinion.

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:
Not that it matters now I guess but a dealer has offered us a new Barbarian in any colour but grey with a hard top for £20k as they're getting rid before the new one comes out.


I think those are ex head office ones, like mine. If it is 100% brand new then it is a stunning deal.

Any registered in 2015 come with a 5 years warranty, 3000kg towing capacity (although I'd like to see the stated MAM in the V5c - mine is ~2950kg but the official capacity is 2700!).

The new(ish) Barbarian has DAB radio, auto wipers and lights and a few other gadgets.

I reckon the L200 is the best of the pickups, switchable central difflock is the only thing I see as essential in a proper 4wd system.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
cynic-al wrote:
Not that it matters now I guess but a dealer has offered us a new Barbarian in any colour but grey with a hard top for £20k as they're getting rid before the new one comes out.


I think those are ex head office ones, like mine. If it is 100% brand new then it is a stunning deal.

Any registered in 2015 come with a 5 years warranty, 3000kg towing capacity (although I'd like to see the stated MAM in the V5c - mine is ~2950kg but the official capacity is 2700!).

The new(ish) Barbarian has DAB radio, auto wipers and lights and a few other gadgets.

I reckon the L200 is the best of the pickups, switchable central difflock is the only thing I see as essential in a proper 4wd system.

You don't need auto wipers and healights in a car, let a lone a truck.

As for best. Well take a stock L200 off road properly. It'll be rubbish compared to a stock 110. So depends on situation.

If it's spec, performance & price. Then you can't beat the US market offerings. Either home grown or the Japanese ones they sell over there.

UK market Jap trucks are nothing but a poor cousin.

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it was new with the dab and 5yr warranty. Although that was a sticker on the front of the brochure and the inside still referred to 3 years Laughing

The problem with importing us stuff is its lhd and I just wouldn't want that every day.

Again it depends what you refer to as offroad, mine has to get me on and off sites in the winter without getting stuck not compete in a challenge event and the additional refinement on the motorway is sadly more important to me. Of course it's less refined on the motorway than a mondeo but a mondeo can't tow heavy stuff so no good on that front.

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RichardD
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't need dab radio, Electric windows, aircon or metallic paint either. That's not the discussion. The cars are what they are here in the UK and whilst you can import non UK models that is not really practical.

As for pure off road ability out the crate, I agree the 110 is probably the best, given I've not tried everything but of those I have ... But again were not discussing that. My off road use is also rather mild; I ned to get into and across my field and through occasional snow. For proper stuff I have an LR 90 challenge truck

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, I have deleted the arguments to try to get this topic back on track. I HAVE DONE THIS, NOT AT ANYONES REQUEST.
I thought we were all adults on here. Please do not prove me wrong.

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chicken drumstick
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
You don't need dab radio, Electric windows, aircon or metallic paint either. That's not the discussion. The cars are what they are here in the UK and whilst you can import non UK models that is not really practical.

Of course it's practical. It's easy to do yourself and there are simple loads of companies that do it for you, or retail retail US trucks in the UK.

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chicken drumstick
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynic-al wrote:

Again it depends what you refer to as offroad, mine has to get me on and off sites in the winter without getting stuck not compete in a challenge event and the additional refinement on the motorway is sadly more important to me. Of course it's less refined on the motorway than a mondeo but a mondeo can't tow heavy stuff so no good on that front.

Off road would depend, but for farm use (depending on the farm) you may need some proper off road ability in a work truck.

As for refinement. Are these Jap trucks really any more refined? Leafs springs at the back and still a ladder chassis. I really can't believe there is much difference if any at all, but certainly not enough to be a deciding factor.

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience (and and don't claim to be expert by any means) high noise and poor seating position can leave the driver feeling completely flat worn out on a long trip. In the pickup I've done 10 hour journeys and been able to function when I arrived. Anything above 6 hours in a panel van and I struggle. In german saloons the skys the limit. After all most of us are employed for what we do when we get there not for making the journey.

A lot of farms I know moved away from Land Rovers to pickups years ago, mainly due to purchase cost (most keep them until they're scrap) and fuel economy but I haven't met one that feels the need to go back. There are also smany who wouldn't consider anything else and have very nice range rovers and discoveries Smile

As I've said before pickups arn't the best at any single task but are competent at a very wide range. With a pickup I can so all I need to do with one vehicle. However there are many compromises and reasons why they don't suit everyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly don't deny the appeal of the Jap trucks. I'm by no way against them.

And true enough I'm a Landy fan. But for good reason.

As for comfort, I suffer back issues and find Defender seating to be one of the best and most comfy for long journeys. Although I do prefer the older seats to the ones in the Puma's. Not sure exactly what is different, but not as comfy as they used to be.

Noise. All of the Puma's I've been in have been fine in this regard. Sure older ones and pre-Td5's are a lot less refined.

As for farmers. I agree there are a lot using Jap trucks these days, although I certainly know of a number of people who went Jap truck only to return to Land Rovers, finding the Jap trucks reputation of bullet proof reliability was somewhat unfounded. And Landy's just generally being better vehicles for the job at hand.

I'm certainly not blinkered to the issues LR's have. But have a reasonable experience with them. Currently own 2 and half Landy's and have others in the past. Brother has one, Mum has one, 2 cousins have them, Aunt has 1, Uncle has 5 of them!!, God Father has 2. As a family I think we've owned over 50 examples over the years. Almost all have been reliable and dependable and the worst of them have been no worse than any other vehicle make we've owned.

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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every car has its faults, things wear out.

I had a defender on my drive just last week




Smile

I love land rovers, the range rover is fun for whar it is, they just arn't the best option for me but everyone likes different things for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I drive the L200 and the more I use it the clearer it becomes to me why they are popular and why they are great pieces of kit but (there's always a but) it is also becoming very clear to me that actually you can't truly consider the Defender and the pickup as alternatives to each other. They certainly overlap but they are not designed to do the same job, and the vast majority of owners of both buy them for reasons other than their express design purpose.

Yesterday I spent all day, in lovely Spring sunshine, fixing the damage done to the field tracks and crossing by my tenants cows last winter to allow easy vehicular access to the whole of the field and the wind turbine. Once we'd finished, Murray in his Dmax auto and me in the L200 tested out the tracks and the cars. The D-max has good A/T tyres whilst I have the road tyres but in dry conditions we both drove around the field in 2wd only getting stuck going up the steepest incline.

We then got cocky and started driving through the remaining soft bits and the D-max sailed through whilst I managed, just. This is testament to the 4x4 system not those cars specifically but both bottomed out, scraped the towbars (I bent the electrics!), the diffs and the engine bash plates. We did nothing that one would not expect to do on a farm or a building or civil engineering site (Murray runs a self drive excavator hire business) and we reached the 'normal' limits of pickup use.

Under the same circumstances my 110 sailed through everything out the crate without bottoming out (diffs excepted) or having any problems at all but (there it is again) when I had to move 20 slabs and edging stones I just chucked them in the back nae hassle right up to the point I nearly didn't make it across the field and had it been wet I wouldn't have and I doubt if decent tyres would have helped. I would have used the 110 with the sankey trailer to do the same job before in serious muck and had no hassles.

I've done 2500 miles or thereabouts and I miss the visibility of the high driving position, the cubby box both for storage and elbow support and the road holding. The L200 is quieter and more civilised but the ventilation system is very poor and it mists up easily and does not clear as quickly as the 110. The forward visibility is much worse because of the A pillars (same with all moderns to be fair) and something as simple as no blackout panel behind the rear view mirror is a real pain.

Oddly, neither has heated wing mirrors which I regard as essential these days (£28 to fit to the Landy).

Which one do I think is better? Neither, they are too different to truly compare. Each has their diehard following and frankly I like them both enough to know that Landrover has a genuine opportunity to create a world beating dual purpose vehicle. Give us the essentials as standard and the choice to spec it up as much or as little as we like.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diff22000 wrote:
Right, I have deleted the arguments to try to get this topic back on track. I HAVE DONE THIS, NOT AT ANYONES REQUEST.
I thought we were all adults on here. Please do not prove me wrong.


Applause


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i shall issue you with a sycophantic clap for that edit...... Applause
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cynic-al
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everything you've said is fair comment Richard, I think the problem is Land Rover arn't interested in making a 'utility' vehicle for the average working man anymore. I think they are doing far better out of international sales of range rovers and discoveries that scratching a mediocre profit whist trying to compete with vehicles from the East just doesn't interest them. I think they are very keen to maintain the offroad credentials of their luxury etc though, I don't think they want to water them down.

All the council / drainage boards around here run pickups now which I have no doubt is a cost thing as much as anything. They all buy based on tender. (with the exception of the environment agency who have a mixed fleet of utility 110s, pickups and shogun commercials)

I think in the future the only choice for the working man will be a pickup or a van.

Let's hope the 'new' defender proves me wrong! Smile

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RichardD
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely
LR have been very successful in taking an iconic brand with 3 vehicles in the 'range' and taking over the world on the luxury/leisure ticket.

If I were in charge of the new Defender I'd be playing the Jap makers at their own game unashamedly cribbing the best of their ideas, galvanise as much of the undercarriage as possible, make it scaleable and build it properly.

There is a reason even shopping baskets have all the gadgets; you can make more money by adding toys than by building it to last Rolling Eyes

If I ruled the world I'd have:

The comfort and gadgets of a Disco/Shogun/LC etc (with nice rear seats)
a load area like a pickup - estate car style - but not with a drop tail gate
3500kg towing capacity
high driving position

I'll have it [new] from £20k inc vat in Epsom Green please

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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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mike328
Articulating


Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Odometer: 793
Location: Suffolk!



PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:
If I ruled the world I'd have:


so much money that I couldn't give **** if my defender leaked and rusted...in fact it wouldn't rust when I lived somewhere that was hot and sunny all year round. and if it broke down i'd buy something else, a different manufacturers product for every day of the year... Laughing

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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 stars, sir.

You gotta love logical thinking

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jojo
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike328 wrote:
RichardD wrote:
If I ruled the world I'd have:


so much money that I couldn't give **** if my defender leaked and rusted...in fact it wouldn't rust when I lived somewhere that was hot and sunny all year round. and if it broke down i'd buy something else, a different manufacturers product for every day of the year... Laughing


Same here, but I just feel happy and comfortable in a Defender. There is something homely about knocking your knee on the hand brake and your elbow on the door and perhaps most of all that confidence that it will get you through.

OK, so it's horses for courses and you pays your money etc. and I wouldn't (well I don't actually) give a toss what others think, I'd spend my money on a Defender because that is what will make me happy - sad, misguided old git or what - but it will make me happy.

J
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all those who knock Defender reliability ... my L200 blew off its turbo hose on the motorway yesterday and there is a suspicious amount of oil in there ....

Let's see what another 600 miles of towing does for it Wink

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** GED **
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Joined: 18 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at least the L200 made the motorway....... Laughing
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