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Series onto coil chassis advice please

 
 
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baxter
Articulating


Joined: 08 May 2006
Odometer: 647
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand


1990 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:08 am    Post subject: Series onto coil chassis advice please Reply with quote

Hi Land Rover folk, I'm thinking about a semi-retirement project (ie a few years away yet), and would love your advice.

I want a classic looking Land Rover (by classic looking I mean a pre-Bache flat sided model, but I could live with a curved waist model if necessary), but on a coil chassis as it will be used for serious off-road where articulation and clearance are needed, and I envisage will be on a minimum tyre size of 32".

It also needs to be big enough for touring, including sleeping inside. For this reason if has to be a LWB - assuming the extra length isn't too much of a liability off-road?.

This limits the body to a 109 station wagon (which I think are more common here than the 107s). Which incidentally would look fantastic with a tilt Smile
In case an entire 109 is hard to find, am I right in thinking that any S1 body and cab would do, and the rear section is the only parts of the body unique to the 109?

I'm assuming a LWB is not an uncommon swap (though haven't found one on my brief google, hence seeking advice here)

I assume the best chassis to fit on a 109 is one with the closest chassis size? (I should point out at this point I can't weld, so would like to keep the amount of shifting stuff on the chassis to a minimum) Though I have no idea if the bulkhead sit in the same location respective to the axles?

Assuming they do, the chassis options seem to be:
    A Range Rover LWB (108"), but I don't think they're at all common here (can't ever recall seeing one come to think of it).

    A 110/Defender, which is easily available.


Work/Problems I see are:
    Making new mounts for the body (which I assume must be documented somewhere by similar swaps so I can see the amount of work needed)

    The extra inch in chassis length - as lifting the suspension will pull the rear wheels forward a little this will get things closer to 109, and the altering the arches will be not necessary, or minimal. Worst case I figure the rear axle will need relocated, which if that's all isn't the end of the world.

    The Series bulkhead being in a different position retaliative to the axles compared to the donor's and need shifting (ie a lot of welding), or altering where the wheel arches are in the body (neither desirable).

    How to disguise the wider axles (ie Defender arches will stand out like the dog's proverbial on a flatsided Series), massively off-set wheels might go some way here, but I assume will be custom items (ie $$$).


I'm don't know a lot about Land Rovers (and even less idea what's interchangeable and not/difficult), so would love to know any work/pitfalls I've missed above please - especially with regard to what chassis and body I need to start looking for.

Also any links to build diaries of LWB Series on to coil chassis swaps would be great if anyone knows of such.

And/or is there a more LR anorak forum I should be asking on?


FYI - engine (and probably gearbox and transfer-case, and if economic probably also axles as well) will be a Nissan diesel of some sort, probably a large 4 cylinder turbo (for easy of fitting and a good power/economy balance). These are reasonably plentiful in New Zealand, and plenty of info available on them, and they are possibly the most robust diesel and running gear of all the options.


Cheers greatly for any help. Smile

__________________________________
1990 Niva 1600, 2" lift, LSD
www.ladaniva.co.uk/baxter -Baxter's Temple of Niva Site
If you do not have anything to occupy yourself - buy a Niva.
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phew
Lots to answer ...

First obvious one re wheels/110 axles: if you backpsace them too much you'll reduce the turning circle which is not great to start with!

I'm sure someone has done a conversion like this before but you might want to try contacting someone like Richards Chassis who could make you a galvo 109 chassis with all the mounts already in the correct place.

I know coiling an S2 or S3 is pretty normal

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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him.
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Mr Tyre
Mr Tyre


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Odometer: 4957
Location: Darlington Co Durham



PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheels: You want to look for ANR1534 rims.They have a deep dish on the outside which would give you the clearance required for a good steering lock.The earlier version of the wheel 569204 was a Series fitment (over here) on fire engines and heavy duty applications as well as the Series 3 One ton truck.They will fit in the arches and at 6.5 nches wide will let you fit a fairly sensible range of tyres 7.50-16,235/85-16,8.25-16,9.00-16.
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LlaniGraham
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going to be fun getting it road registered!!
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MSA Radio WORCESTER 1
4x4 Response Wales
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( Gray )
Articulating


Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Odometer: 597




PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how much Richards chassis would charge to export a bespoke chassis to New Zealand.
Nor do I know the local regulations regarding rebuilding a vehicle on a non standard chassis
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fixit
Just got MTs


Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Odometer: 387
Location: Sunny snowy rain devon and thats just today



PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so from my point of veiw what you want is a 110 that looks like a 109?

Then the easy route for me would be a 110 with series bonnet doors windscreen and roof etc

Sounds like a simple bolt on the bits and all the benifits of the newer motor

Just my 2 bobs worth
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion



PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fixit wrote:
Ok so from my point of veiw what you want is a 110 that looks like a 109?

Then the easy route for me would be a 110 with series bonnet doors windscreen and roof etc

Sounds like a simple bolt on the bits and all the benifits of the newer motor

Just my 2 bobs worth


Possibly, but only if everything lines up - hard enough on a normal Landy Shocked Embarassed Laughing

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baxter
Articulating


Joined: 08 May 2006
Odometer: 647
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand


1990 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all.

RichardD wrote:
Phew
First obvious one re wheels/110 axles: if you backpsace them too much you'll reduce the turning circle which is not great to start with!

Hmm yeah, hadn't though about that. Combined with LWB that would be something to avoid too much of.


RichardD wrote:
I know coiling an S2 or S3 is pretty normal

As in modifying the S2/3 chassis? Yeah, I found a lot of pics etc of such, but none of a full chassis swap from a Defender to a S1/2/3.


Mr Tyre wrote:
Wheels: You want to look for ANR1534 rims.They have a deep dish on the outside which would give you the clearance required for a good steering lock.
They're from a Forward Control, yeah?

Mr Tyre wrote:
The earlier version of the wheel 569204 was a Series fitment... They will fit in the arches and at 6.5 nches wide will let you fit a fairly sensible range of tyres...
Will they fit under the arches with the RR/Defender axles?


LlaniGraham wrote:
Going to be fun getting it road registered!!
As picky as authorities are in NZ on modified vehicles, this shouldn't be too big of a problem. But yeah, a potential minefield.



fixit wrote:
Ok so from my point of veiw what you want is a 110 that looks like a 109?

Then the easy route for me would be a 110 with series bonnet doors windscreen and roof etc

Sounds like a simple bolt on the bits and all the benifits of the newer motor

Ideally one that looks like a 107 (ie flat sided), but yeah if I settle for the roundy edges then yes, that's great solution. Smile

__________________________________
1990 Niva 1600, 2" lift, LSD
www.ladaniva.co.uk/baxter -Baxter's Temple of Niva Site
If you do not have anything to occupy yourself - buy a Niva.
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Mr Tyre
Mr Tyre


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Odometer: 4957
Location: Darlington Co Durham



PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Under a normal Series 109 they will fit, but thinking about it now i can't see they will, as Defender axles are wider, i know quite a few that have Defender /Discovery disc brakes fitted on Series axles, and running big Series brakes on the rear.
Both the wheels i mentioned ANR1534 and 569204 are Series 3 one Ton and FC fitments have all their widths on the outside,another thought might be Discovery Series 1 wheels.They are 7 inches wide but have most of their width on the inside.They are ok on Series vehicles but we are back with the fact that Defender axles are wider.

Have seen loads of Series vehicles running a coil sprung chassis and a Series bodies, people seem to use a variety of different wheels/offsets/widths but none go under the wings.
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fixit
Just got MTs


Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Odometer: 387
Location: Sunny snowy rain devon and thats just today



PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As above really if you put a coil axle under a series 2/3 then you need wheel arces to cover the rubber

But the series 1 was narrower still so i would think the only sensible option would be original axles and parabolic springs to keep the width right

Defender axles and series one body imo would be a bit of a mess as the tyres would at a guess be approx 6" plus out each side
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10758
Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Not quite an answer to what you are asking, but better you know now, before changing your plans.

Fitting a coiler axle onto leafer springs has been done (details on the Land Rover Series 2 Club forum ... see the "sticky" at top of Workshop Wisdom menu).

The problem is that coilers have the track rod behind the axle, so it clashes with the springs. The axle needs to be "shimmed" up from the springs, I think about 1". The drag-link between the relay and track arm is still in front of the axle.

The 109" chassis rails are about 1" deeper than the 88". I understand that this means that the inner front wings are different between the two models. I also understand that the LWB has more room behind the seat squabs (and option of sliding seats), which may mean the rear bulkhead is further back, on the S2/S3, but probably not on the S1. (I dropped a S1 SWB rear tub straight onto a brand new Marsland galvanised S3 chassis, perfect fit). The bulkhead outrigger bolts are further apart on S2/S3 than on an S1.

I believe the extra 2" between 107" and 109". and 86" and 88", is all in front of the bulkhead .... wings, bonnet, and extended chassis to accomodate the diesel engine. Will a TDi fit in a 107 chassis? Dunno! But I went to look at Babs (LSR car, crashed on Pendins sands, killing driver, buried where she lay, dug up 40 years later, and running again. Google BABS PENDINE). She was trailered back to Pendine behind a 80" Land Rover fitted with a six-pot.

Apparently, fitting a TDi gearbox into a Series is not for the faint hearted. TDi engine gives almost too much power for UK, but uses a lot less fuel. TDi without a silencer will pass UK MOT, but is tiring unless you have overdrive or 3.5 diffs.

602

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Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
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Location: Glynneath, South Wales



PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Log onto this ...

http://www.series2club.co.uk/forum/forum/index.php

... ask who has done what similar to your plans. Mention that you are not in UK, else you will be advised not to.

602

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Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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chicken drumstick
Winch Assistant


Joined: 29 May 2012
Odometer: 83
Location: Near MK



PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baxter wrote:

Ideally one that looks like a 107 (ie flat sided), but yeah if I settle for the roundy edges then yes, that's great solution. Smile

Not sure if this was covered.

But when you say 107 and 109 are you still referring to a Series 1? 109 Series 1's where very late models, but still had the main appearance of the 107. I believe the front cross member was moved forward an inch to accommodate the diesel engine (same as for the 86 to 88 SWB Series 1). Not exactly sure where the other inch comes from however.


That said, most people probably associate 109 with the Series II-III models, and you yourself keep referring to flat sided and round sided.


Wanting to make a LWB Series 1 coiler is likely to be quite a different project to wanting to make a LWB Series 2-3 coiler. The latter you might just as well get a 110.

Of note is, a Series 1 of any wheelbase has a much narrower bulkhead and body. And unique body panels compared to latter Land Rovers.

You could look at re-blading a 110. But it seems an awful lot of work to only end up with something that has less room inside. As the panels are flat, it wouldn't be that hard to manufacture them (apart from the wings).

I guess another option could be to re-clad a p38a Range Rover, as they have a 108" wheelbase. But you are probably talking quite a bit of work. Although you would be able to retain some of the p38's more luxury items.

You'd need to manufacture a bulk head, body out riggers and probably retro fit a cross member. Suspect you'd have to compromise on the interior as the transmission is larger, so making it look 100% Series 1 inside would be a challenge.

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w3526602
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Odometer: 10758
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

The S1 was lengthened by 2" (unnanounced) to accomodate the diesel engine which followed soon after. The extra 2" was in the chassis in front of bulkhead, so bonnet and wings had to be longer. The wheel base can be identifed by the location of the bolt that holds the steady bay to the front wing ... once noticed it's easily recognised next time. But ... I have recently read of an S1 that had one 86" wing, and one 88" wing, so not an infallible test.

ALL S1 LWB estates are 107". But that shouldn't be a problem, just fit 88" or 109" front wings and bonnet.

Radiator panels on 86" and 107" are aluminium. 88" and 109" are steel. Repair panels are available for bottom of S2 rad panels, but I don't know about S1 rad panels.

S1 LWB rear springs are hung under the chassis rails, like the SWB, so a S1 rear axle will not bolt up to a S2/S3 LWB chassis. Having the springs closer together will improve articulation ... and body roll. But if you intend to abuse this truck, perhaps you should fit a Salisbury axle ... stronger but HEAVY.

The S2/S3 front bumber is much deeper than an S1. Probably cheaper too, and to my mind looks more convincing. S1 bumper will not bolt onto S2/S3 dumbirons.

The 5-door S2/S3 estate body will not fit onto a truck chassis without a lot of butchery. I don't know if the S1 chassis differed between body styles. Also, underseat fuel tanks want to occupy the same space as the rear passenger's toes. Either notch the tank(s), or fit different (more expensive) tank behind the rear axle.

Ashcroft Transmissions (Google) used to make an adaptor, or something, to allow the Series part-time transfer box to bolt onto the back of a Defender/Discovery gearbox. I think the TDi gearbox assemblies are about 4" longer than the Series gearboxes. I think it has been done, but not for the faint hearted.

602

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Don't force it, use a bigger hammer, cos if it doesn't fit, the hammer is not big enough.
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baxter
Articulating


Joined: 08 May 2006
Odometer: 647
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand


1990 Lada Niva

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers guys - absolute gold there, thanks a lot Smile
__________________________________
1990 Niva 1600, 2" lift, LSD
www.ladaniva.co.uk/baxter -Baxter's Temple of Niva Site
If you do not have anything to occupy yourself - buy a Niva.
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Alistair_Philip
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Baxter

Don't know if you are still monitoring this thread as the last response was some time ago, but I thought I would chip in with an alternative view to the rest of your respondants below, particularly seeing as you probably haven't embarked on your project yet.

I would challenge you basic proposition that "on a coil chassis as it will be used for serious off-road where articulation and clearance are needed".

There is a perception in the UK in general and in the land rover community in particular that leaf sprung vehicles are limited in articulation and clearance. This is really only because the only experience the UK has of leaf sprung off roaders are Series Land Rovers. Their standard suspension setup is fine for what it was intended, namely farm and military work vehicles, but it was never designed for what is now viewed as 'serious' off-roading for which it is, frankly pretty restricted by design.

Just because this is true of stock Series Land Rovers does not mean that leaf springs cannot however be just as supple and the vehicles just as agile as coil sprung. Out in the US you will find just as many modified and lifted older leaf sprung jeeps as you do modern coil sprung ones, and they are just as agile with exactly the same axle articulation. Certainly the US jeep community would laugh at the notion that a leaf sprung rig cannot be just as 'serious' as any coiler - it is just a question of modifying the suspension appropriately. There are plenty of jeep forums on this for advice.

So before you reach for the cheque book and go for a bespoke coil chassis with defender axles, prop shafts, gearbox? etc. etc. ($$$$) have a look at what you can do to modify an existing leaf sprung setup to achieve what you want. I would suggest that you start by looking at Rocky Mountain parabolic springs and shocks. The articulation and lift which these provide (not to mention improvement in ride) might be all you need. If not, google and read up on revolver shackles and boomerang shackles. You might also consider a spring over axle conversion which will give you all the increase in clearance that you will ever want. Or Portal Axles on the parabolic springs? Also a set of lockers or LSDs front and back will overcome pretty much any residual limitation which you might perceive.

As an aside, there are any number of manufacturers currently knocking out suspension setups for coil sprung Land Rovers which allow the springs to dislocate from either the axle or the spring seat. These, combined with long travel shock absorbers make for great photos on twist off ramp type challenges or static photos of parking one wheel on top of a large rock. All very impressve, but the reality is that having one drooping wheel in very vauge contact with the ground is all well and good, but having any of the vehicle's weight on it, which is required for real traction is something else; the second the spring dislocates, the only weight on the wheel is that of the axle, which results in minimal traction. The only way that traction through the drooping axle is created in this situation is with diflockers transferring the drive to the wheel which is in compression... and if you are going to run diflockers then you don't need the dislocating springs in the first place. A case of looks good, but.... So just go with decent parabolic leaf springs and a pair of lockers or LSDs rather than spending an absolute fortune and buggering up the on-road stability of the vehicle into the bargan.

The other point you make is "It also needs to be big enough for touring, including sleeping inside. For this reason if has to be a LWB - assuming the extra length isn't too much of a liability off-road?".

Again my opinion (as a modified SWB Series III owner (on leaf springs with a v8 engine)), but personally I much prefer the off road ability of the SWB and the power to tow a camping trailer. That way I can get to the campsite for the weekend, ditch the trailer, set up camp and then go off exploring small tracks with the off road ability of the 88". Also the wife can stay and put her feet up in camp if she wants to... This all depends on your model of travel and whether or not you base-camp so perhaps it wouldn't work for you - or perhaps it would. Again, one for thought.

All of this also gets you around possibly problematic licencing and insurance issues for a coil sprung conversion as, ostensibly, you haven't really changed very much on an existing old vehicle...
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