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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:54 am Post subject:
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If it hadn't been for the Jeep there would be no Landrover, if it hadn't been for the Beetle there wouldn't be Porsche. What's your point?
I have no problem with people criticising Landrovers, that exactly what I've been doing but I fail to understand why the hateboy nonsense. There are some right pieces of junk out there but for £500 you can't really complain - I thought I'd made that clear but there are some people who see Landrover ownership as an excuse to go on the wind up and that is getting very old.
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject:
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| Xpajun wrote: |
Now Richard - I've been avoiding this post I feel for you and hear what you're saying but now YOU are slagging off every other marque except for the great Landrover.
Richard it ain't great - it's a disgrace to British engineering, it is a conglomeration of cheaply made parts made by a workforce that never cared, it is the only vehicle in the world that rots out completely and still keeps a high resale value - why? nothing to do with Landrover - just the idiots that are willing to pay out lots of money for something that, unfortunately never was.
You mention Discovery besides Shogun - if it wasn't for the Shogun there would have never been a Discovery - the Shogun arrived in this country and cut into Landrover's market so much that they panicked and bunged another shell on the Range Rover chassis and running gear, furnished with bits and pieces left over from the Avenger and Sherpa.
You want to know why the Landrover is still around in such numbers? It's simply because these Landrovers don't have an original part left on them - they've all been replaced.
I hope, after this post, Richard that you never have the gall to complain about anyone knocking the Landrover again - rather than accuse anyone else of being a prat I think you need to look to yourself! |
I missed most of this one Xpajun because I was reading it on my phone ...
Your point about the high resale value - I really don't understand it either and never have. I bought my TD5 90 for £6k and 4 years later the same one would have cost me £10k or more and I mean same age/mileage etc. It really is madness but I'm not going to argue if there are nutters out there ready to splash the cash but it does mean that given there are almost no used 110 CSWs on the market if you want one mostly you have to buy a brand new one!
The most reliable car I have ever owned with the best customer service was a Kia Sorrento but it was very limited off road (ie in a field pulling a trailer) and was otherwise soulless. The problems my father has had with seriously top end BMWs and Mercs is beyond belief and everyone I know has had problems far worse than mine with cars that are generally regarded as very reliable. Landrover is no different except with the Defender where they are at the end of a 60 year manufacturing run so have no motivation to improve the product.
Here is the rub. I have not and do not slag off other people's choices except for as much comedic effect as, say, Ged but for some reason there are some people who see every criticism of Defenders by their owners not as a chance to have a reasoned discussion about the comparisons between models and marques but as an opportunity to simply have a go at Defender owners as being blinkered, blinded by nostalgia and stupid for spending so much money. These people seem to require us to defend our choices as perhaps a way of reinforcing their own sense of superiority. This petty squabble (as was excellently put above) is not encouraging to lurkers and newbies and whilst I'm as much at fault for reacting it is not reasonable behaviour in my opinion so if you want to continue then carry on but I'm not going to participate.
I started this discussion as a way of garnering opinions on the various different and often difficult to compare 4x4s out there to allow me to reflect on my choices and see if they were still valid and I've learned a fair few things. On sober reflection I really can't justify selling my 110 just yet because it does tick all of the boxes bar 1 or 2 and, for whatever reason, the resale value will hopefully always be high so when I do come to sell I'll be quids in. I'll revisit this again and again I suppose but not here.
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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** GED **
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:16 pm Post subject:
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richard, i was having a discussion, then you called me a prat.
right at that moment, you lost the imaginary argument you were having because YOU descended into personal insults. you know you did because you tried to cover it up in your very next post. had i done that you would either of screamed for me to be banned AGAIN, or got someone to lock the thread so that you could save face. seeing as you opened the floor then you are now fair game.
xpajun has laid it on the line and you have failed completely to address his points.
jojo has very eloquently hit the nail on the head with the purpose of landrovers. he never said they were perfect and the conditions he described are what most people see the landrovers main use. a farm vehicle. a tool. a versatile way of moving things around. cant argue with what hes says and agree that the landrover is probably the best vehicle for that scenario.
the thing that amuses me so much about landrover ownership is that the owners are prepared to excuse **** poor workmanship as foibles.
something that you, in your fanboy ranting have not only proved, but done so admirably.
no other marque has so many people making so many excuses to cover so many flaws.
so there you have it.
and for the record, i STILL hope it gets sorted, because no one should have to pay 30 grand for a leaky car.
| RichardD wrote: |
This petty squabble (as was excellently put above) is not encouraging to lurkers and newbies and whilst I'm as much at fault for reacting it is not reasonable behaviour in my opinion so if you want to continue then carry on but I'm not going to participate. |
i liked that line.
a lot.
it made me laugh.
specially as it was you being personal.
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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject:
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Ged, did you not see my post immediately after? I was using the word 'prat' in a humorous sense but that didn't come across so I qualified it. That has been lost somewhere.
As for answering people's comments, I agreed with them!!!
Frankly this thread has long since left the point of reason and me far behind.
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Difflock Royalty
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Odometer: 40007
Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast
2009 Land Rover 110 CSW
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject:
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This is starting to get a bit tedious but here's my tuppence worth.
Despite being aggravated by the niggles, I love my Defender as it does everything I want it to do.
As I now, personally, own it I'm setting about fixing the bad bits and tweeking some other bits to make it into what Land Rover should have made it in the first place. This one is a keeper.
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Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook! |
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** GED **
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:31 pm Post subject:
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look, you`ve had your little moment, lets get it back on track.
you have spent a fortune on a truck, and its slightly substandard. as i have said all the way through, this is not acceptable.
as i have also said, i hope it gets dealt with under warranty.
now some questions, do you really think fitting a drip tray is a proper resolution? personally, i would be wanting it not to leak in the first place.
thoughts?
are they going to pay for the 4 wheel tracking, if a fault is independently proven?
when the end of line edition is released, given the fact that yours is substandard, would you genuinely consider another one, and would that judgement be clouded by your desire to own "one of the last"?
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** GED **
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject:
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| . wrote: |
Despite being aggravated by the niggles, I love my Defender as it does everything I want it to do.
As I now, personally, own it I'm setting about fixing the bad bits and tweeking some other bits to make it into what Land Rover should have made it in the first place. This one is a keeper. |
and thats also refreshingly honest for a landrover owner. i always said the wrangler should have been 2" higher and had 31"s as standard.
whats up with yours?
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject:
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| To be very honest I'd much rather have one of the first than one of the last...
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:10 pm Post subject:
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| Actually to be brutally honest I'd rather have a Austin Gipsy...
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DD
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Odometer: 9761
Location: Aberdeenshire
1986 Land Rover Defender
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject:
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I love my 110 
__________________________________
Disco 'DD' Don
90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
'I came, I saw, I locked the diff' |
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mike328
Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Odometer: 793
Location: Suffolk!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:57 pm Post subject:
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ive allways loved s1 landrovers, this ones a bueat;
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Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:21 pm Post subject:
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| mike328 wrote: | ive allways loved s1 landrovers, this ones a bueat;
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that's not a series 1 - it's a Austin Gipsy
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DD
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Odometer: 9761
Location: Aberdeenshire
1986 Land Rover Defender
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:28 pm Post subject:
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Methinks that was the entire point of the post! 
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Disco 'DD' Don
90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
'I came, I saw, I locked the diff' |
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:50 pm Post subject:
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| DD wrote: | | Methinks that was the entire point of the post! |
Yeah - posted before I saw the smilies
Wish it were mine 
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mike328
Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Odometer: 793
Location: Suffolk!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject:
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was only trying to be funny, not taking the ****... id rather have one than a series too... but you know every one that saw it would say "I like your new land rover (or jeep)" just makes me want one more...
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Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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DD
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Odometer: 9761
Location: Aberdeenshire
1986 Land Rover Defender
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject:
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That's registered as a 1965 green Austin minibus.
Tidy example though. Very tidy.
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Disco 'DD' Don
90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
'I came, I saw, I locked the diff' |
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mike328
Articulating
Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Odometer: 793
Location: Suffolk!
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:22 pm Post subject:
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best one I could find on google images... just need to find a forgotten one in a barn now and im sorted. 
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Snap On: Turning drawers into status symbols since 1920. |
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jon.g1
Articulating
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Odometer: 753
Location: Taunton, Somerset, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:01 am Post subject:
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[quote="Xpajun"] | RichardD wrote: | Now you're being a prat.
You want to know why the Landrover is still around in such numbers? It's simply because these Landrovers don't have an original part left on them - they've all been replaced. |
http://youtu.be/BUl6PooveJE
I love Land Rovers, but I've got to be honest the newer Jap 4x4's are nice to drive and pretty comfortable, and cheaper.
I've restarted my project and the first thing i done was got rid of the unreliable Rover V8 in place of a nice German engineered engine. Will eventually do something about the Brie and Stilton axles, then hopefully will be reliable.
the difference is the Japs built it all strong and reliable in the first place.[/url]
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If you make it idiot proof...
They will make a better idiot!
Project Zulander |
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aniesigh
Articulating
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Odometer: 795
Location: north devon
1991 Suzuki Samurai
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject:
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Catch 22, you want a vehicle with 'personality' and 'character' but these normally come in the form of niggly faults, which are then the very thing that gets moaned about!
a warranty body repair for corrosion is going to be the cheapest job they can knock out, if you're serious about keeping it i'd think about not even bothering wasting your time with the warranty repair and get it done properly somewhere reputable out of your own pocket, knowing it will be done once properly! maybe even remove bulkhead and have it galv'd while its still good. Delaer might contribute towards the cost, or maybe supply the materials or something.
crazy to have to do this to a 3yr old vehicle yes, but sensible in the long run..probably also yes!
i do like defenders, but they have lots of fault and i'd never spend big money on one. i drive a D40 Navara and love it. its quieter, smoother, quicker, better on fuel, more comfy, more luxurious etc etc. no probably/deffinately not as good off road though.
The only way i'll have a defender instead of the Nav, is to build one myself to my spec (which is a plan).
Start from a new chassis, BMW 3L diesel engine, auto gearbox controlled by compushift (so tiptronic) , decent seats. tdci dash. 110 double cab shape.
I can probably build an effectively 'brand new' vehicle (not engine/box etc) and SVA it, for the same cost as a 10 year old vehicle which would be lower spec and not to my taste. resale value would be unknown as you can't predict resale values of custom things, but if i did it, it would be with a view for keeping it long term.
__________________________________
1990 Suzuki Samurai 1.9TDI (sold)
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=53747
new truck build thread:
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?p=595221#595221 |
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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:06 am Post subject:
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| ** GED ** wrote: | look, you`ve had your little moment, lets get it back on track.
you have spent a fortune on a truck, and its slightly substandard. as i have said all the way through, this is not acceptable.
as i have also said, i hope it gets dealt with under warranty.
now some questions, do you really think fitting a drip tray is a proper resolution? personally, i would be wanting it not to leak in the first place.
thoughts?
are they going to pay for the 4 wheel tracking, if a fault is independently proven?
when the end of line edition is released, given the fact that yours is substandard, would you genuinely consider another one, and would that judgement be clouded by your desire to own "one of the last"? |
Sorry, I've been off piste the last few days - work getting in the way of real life
First thing - the tracking has been independently checked and sorted and the report thrown in LR's rather red face. Luckily it cost me nowt 'cos a pal offered to do it for me.
Second. The leaks. Now my hands free kit (aftermarket) has chucked it I started raking under the dash and I can see no evidence of water ingress. The bodyshop, during the warranty work, will remove the dash and fully water test the bulkhead. This was 'sorted' some time ago so we'll see next month. A drip shield is what's being suggested and that is to protect the expensive electronics should the 'fix' fail. The water isn't gushing in it is really just a drip here and there (unacceptable I know but not earth shattering either).
Everything else is being sorted under warranty and is pretty minor.
Now to deal with the comments. Landy owners are totally aware of the failing of their vehicles' design - its over 60 years old after all but again there is a reason why it has been made for all those years - people want them! There is no right or wrong in that, it just is. I bought mine new so that when the new one came out (I loved the look/concept of the DC100) I could buy one and suffer the least depreciation I could. Now I find they're not making a new one 
Now I'm not an a majorly irritated mood (damned family) I've now looked at exactly what I need from a car (or cars) as dispassionately as I can and lets see if you guys can find fault in my 'logic'.
In no particular order:
Towing
I need 3500 towing capacity. My LR 90 challenge truck must weigh ~2000kg and with all the bits/ spares etc for a weekend's play (not carried in the tow barge) that might go up to 2200kg. Add in the 900kg for the trailer and I'm at 3100kg and whilst I might get away with a 3 tonne towing capacity it's not a great idea. I tow that amount probably 10 or 15 times a year.
seating
5 seats is enough and even then its mostly the kids who are adult sized but still small and skinny enough
daily load carrying
I often carry long stuff, too long for a pickup but fine for an 'estate' style both for work and personally. I need to be able to load in sacks of feed, gravel etc, oily bits etc and carry the kind of emergency junk us 4x4 owners like to think we will need at a moments notice.
Off road
Whilst a road use car I drive into and around my field for various purposes at least once per week on average. The access is not fantastic and good ground clearance is a must. No low hanging plastics or dress up side steps would survive for ever.
So the alternatives ...
Landcruiser up to 2009: 2700kg tow capacity, after that 3,000kg. lots of low hanging plastic. Not seen inside one yet
Hi Lux: 2500kg towing, no on-road 4x4
L200 3,000kg towing max
Shogun 3500kg towing lots of low hanging plastic and side steps
Disco 3500kg towing, lots of plastic but higher up than the Shogun.
Now for the subjective stuff:
Just the towing capacity limits me to the Shogun, Defender, Disco, RR. I'm not looking at the Ssangyong etc as I have my limits
Shogun: Lots of toys, comfier than the standard 110 but rear and load area seats are no better than the 110 save for leg room. It feels cheap and plasticky and a 5 year old example looks worn (the ones I've seen do anyway)
Disco: Way over priced but great design especially on rear seats and load area. Comfy and well specced if you spend £££££
RR: Sorry but I hate the image.
Reliability
JD Power puts Landrover above all the other 4x4 manufacturers but I can't find information to drill down into.
I don't think Defenders or Disco's are any less reliable than any other car these days I just think I've been a little unlucky.
Over all I can't think of any other car that does what I need it to do at the price I've paid and with the low lifetime running costs. It certainly has its limitations but they form the backbone of the character that has to be there for me to enjoy ownership. In an ideal world I'd have a Defender that is 2" wide each side in automatic with a bigger engine and a full(er) width rear door.
Sure it still irritates me but until my needs change materially it's the only one that suits.
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245
1988 Mitsubishi Shogun
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject:
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Toyota Amazon has a 3500 towing capacity...
And with the 4.2l engine would probably be better than the Shogun - certainly would be width wise (well for me anyway towing a 8' wide caravan )
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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject:
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| Xpajun wrote: | Toyota Amazon has a 3500 towing capacity...
And with the 4.2l engine would probably be better than the Shogun - certainly would be width wise (well for me anyway towing a 8' wide caravan ) |
It does but a 7 yr old 100k miler is over £20k and depreciates heavily from there! Not sure it would cope so well with the rough work so well. Nearest one for me to look at is a 2002 200k miler 
Not really a fair comparison, as someone said above, the Defender is really a commercial/pick up variant. The trim and spec level of all the 'normal' big 4x4s as much much better than the Defender but that balance of work wagon versus road car is v important for me.
Now if I were to sell the Defender and buy an old Amazon as a tow barge and an old defender for field work ... then I'd always be in the wrong car at the wrong time
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:08 pm Post subject:
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I should add, I much prefer the looks of the older Shogun/pajero and Yotas. they have much more character than the new jelly moulds.
Then again I took the Defender into the field newly washed with all the snow and thought "Now that's a looker!"  The 110 said nothing in return - just as well
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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DD
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Odometer: 9761
Location: Aberdeenshire
1986 Land Rover Defender
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject:
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you've answered your own argument Richard.
Nothing to say.
110
__________________________________
Disco 'DD' Don
90 v8 for fun
110 XS CSW daily drive
'I came, I saw, I locked the diff' |
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RichardD
Marshall
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Odometer: 22856
Location: State of Confusion
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:01 pm Post subject:
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Sometimes it is necessary to examine your thought process to see if you were right.
For sure there are fancier cars out there but until they make an 'estate' hilux or L200 then there's no competition for the 110. They do commercial versions of the Shogun and Disco but they are both basic and more expensive than the 110 and don't have rear seats (they can be fitted but for £££).
Oh yes, the Defender is vat recoverable where the Shogun, Disco, LC
I had a thought, more water gets in on my boots and through the door when I get in when its raining than gets through the bulkhead, that's why I'm not that bothered - its the inconvenience of taking to the dealer 3 times to get it sorted (once for them to see it, again when the parts come in and again when the correct parts come in!).
To paraphrase Ian, if its a keeper you sort the problems but that doesn't stop you from questioning sometimes.
Now, if I could just get that lottery win ......
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Poking the Grim Reaper with a stick then running away. The devil made me do it but God said it was okay with him. |
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Difflock Royalty
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Odometer: 40007
Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast
2009 Land Rover 110 CSW
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:56 pm Post subject:
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__________________________________
Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
Lolita the Lightweight
???? the V8 90 CSW
Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom - yes that's right, I have a Zook! |
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aniesigh
Articulating
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Odometer: 795
Location: north devon
1991 Suzuki Samurai
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:53 pm Post subject:
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Isuzu D-max has 3500kgs tow capacity, but bear in mind when you're talking of towing capacities, that is based on the vehicle being fully laden. so my navara has GTW of 5810kg, and GVW of 3210kg which people treat as a towing capacity of 2600kgs, however thats based on the Navara also being fully laden. unladen the Navara weighs ~2000kg so i can have 310kg of cargo in the Navara and tow 3500kgs behind.
This quite possibly opens up possibilities for you vehicle wise, it certainly did for me when i found this out.
L200's have a hatch thing between the tub and rear seats, meaning you can fit long stuff in, a pickup with a canopy isn't far of an estate/110 anyway.
L200's have a center diff when in 4wd meaning you can actually use the 4wd system unlike all the other pickups on the market (bar a 110 d/c)
__________________________________
1990 Suzuki Samurai 1.9TDI (sold)
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=53747
new truck build thread:
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?p=595221#595221 |
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** GED **
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:11 pm Post subject:
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| . wrote: | |
amazing.
it used to say "its a jeep thing"
whatever will landrover owners claim as there own next, the camel trophy?
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** GED **
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject:
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| RichardD wrote: |
Just the towing capacity limits me to the Shogun, Defender, Disco, RR. I'm not looking at the Ssangyong etc as I have my limits
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dont blame you
my ssangpoo had a real struggle keeping up with spannermans disco today.
its never had to drive so slow before and kept accelerating away all by itself
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spannerman69
Mud Obsessed
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Odometer: 2807
Location: st.helens
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:40 pm Post subject:
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hang on ,, the last time the old girl was run full bore for any lenth of time she spat her dummy ,, well it was the turbo , she ran on her own oil and generally wasnt happy about it . i dropped lucky with a good used engine and a few mates and it was done and dusted in a day .
that`s my excuse and i`m sticking to it .
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member of the dcjc |
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