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Off roaders small vs large and best modifacation

 
 
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wowyswittowedtwuck
Just got MTs


Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Odometer: 122




PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:32 pm    Post subject: Off roaders small vs large and best modifacation Reply with quote

Just a wee thread to see what people think.

So the questions is what are the pros and cons of a small and large off roader and what mods what make one better than the other.

So lets clarify,

Small - viatara, SJ / samurai , Jimny, Daihatsus

Large > range rover classics, defender 110, discovery's, land cruiser, Hilux.

So question 1 - what makes the small ones better ?

A lot lighter so can " float " over mud rather than sink in

A lot more nimble in the woods / trial , less chance of rolling on side banks / can squeeze round tight turns

Less chance of roll over , a lot of the time due to lower CoG

Cons

Often less power so may struggle with long steep climbs,

Towing / winching weight will be less due to be a lot lighter

Not as easy to get BIG tyres on due to size ( its not every day you see a jimny on 35"+ tyres.

Large car pros


Can fit bigger tyres which increase ground clearance ( some fords have 50+ inch tyres in the states Shocked )

More power to hit those long climbs

Heavier so wont get dragged in when winching

cons

High CoG so risk roll over

To big to squeeze round trees in forest trials

Will sink in mud due to added weight

QUESTION 2 - what would make a smaller off roader better ?

So lets compare a small and a large ill choose jimny and a discovery,

So how would we make a jimny " better " than a discovery off road.

* larger tyres, get it on 31's or 33's
* crawler gears
* locking diffs

So is there any way of making a small off roader on 31' / 33's / 35's be " better " than large off roader even a hilux of 38's + ?

Sorry for the strange questions and hope it makes sense , just wanting to hear peoples thoughts

Rory
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** GED **
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser



PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats easy.

buy a lada.

i remember standing next to a bog, watching lawnmowers getting stuck and huge hiluxes and cruisers owned by the lads from west coast 4x4 sitting with their wheels spinning...

then from nowhere came Hoodoo, in his LHD lada with his flat cap and his pipe hanging out of his mouth and a teddy in the passenger seat.

he just picked his way round all the stranded vehicles without so much as a wheelspin and tootled out the other side like it was a puddle.

i swear it was virtually on tickover.

most impressive thing ive ever seen in an offroader.

slightly bigger tyres and lockers.

i so want that lada......
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6062
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It comes down to what your doing with the vehicle. My SJ could get in and out of anywhere, crawl around or over pretty much anything. It never had enough power or the right gear for long climbs or the wheelbase for it either. Couple that with only two seats and no boot and it was only good for playing, nothing else.

The Range Rover has power and length for climbs but bellys out so needs the lift and tyres that the little suzuki didn't. It isn't fazed by having 4 people and stuff in it and is much more comfortable.

You can't make the little one be the big one without making it longer and heavier. You have to decide which you need to do more of, boggy bits, tight bits, hills or long road drives then pick the vehicle to suit.

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muffin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive always like the ladas!

Never understood what made them so good in the rough stuff
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winchman
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Odometer: 2757
Location: Village Near St.Helens Merseyside



PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

** GED ** wrote:
thats easy.

buy a lada.

i remember standing next to a bog, watching lawnmowers getting stuck and huge hiluxes and cruisers owned by the lads from west coast 4x4 sitting with their wheels spinning...

then from nowhere came Hoodoo, in his LHD lada with his flat cap and his pipe hanging out of his mouth and a teddy in the passenger seat.

he just picked his way round all the stranded vehicles without so much as a wheelspin and tootled out the other side like it was a puddle.

i swear it was virtually on tickover.

most impressive thing ive ever seen in an offroader.

slightly bigger tyres and lockers.

i so want that lada......

Hoodoo that's a blast from the past, I remember him too.
I had a similar tale with Mr Ham and his little Suzuki LJ with a two stroke engine ( no I am not joking) one winter at JP place it embarrassed a lot of expensive vehicles.
Small light weight slightly bigger tyres, it will do most things cheaply and shouldn't break

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Eclipsed4ever
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Joined: 05 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As previously said, it is largely down to the discipline you plan on taking part in.

Personally though, I'd say for any type of competition, light and small is the way. For trialling manouverability is no.1 priority. Whats the point in being able to get up the hill if you can't turn the corner to get to it? Power certainly isn't everything. I've trialled against several completely stripped single seater SJ's, bog standard running gear and motors and they were ALWAYS extremely competitive and just didn't give up.

Less weight = less stress = reliability = less grip required = better climbing = better on side slopes = better in the mud.

The only reason I can see for going to a bigger vehicle is bigger tyres. But that does bring other inherent problems - big tyres = big stress = land rover cheese has no chance. Bigger tyres aren't the be all and end all either. I spent the day at Walters Arena on my 39.5" Iroks and my buddy was in his SJ on 31s. Don't get me wrong, I had a much nicer ride over the rocks, but he went everywhere I did with some good route picking and driving it smart.

I'd avoid anything heavy, anything with a green circle on the bonnet and go for something small and fun that will probably last the day without blowing a CV.

As for winching, If your in a mud hole, is a 2 ton lard rover or a 1 ton suzuki going to be easier to pull out? No brainer to me. Obviously pulling your stuck buddy who can't get through where you just drove over is going to be more difficult though, but thats their problem Wink

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** GED **
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Odometer: 2039
Location: Scouser



PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

winchman wrote:

I had a similar tale with Mr Ham and his little Suzuki LJ with a two stroke engine ( no I am not joking) one winter at JP place it embarrassed a lot of expensive vehicles.


yup.

i was there that day too Wink
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.
Difflock Royalty


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
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Location: Northern Ireland's Gold Coast


2009 Land Rover 110 CSW

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember seeing the "toy" Jeep out perform some serious kit at Clog too
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Bert the Defender 110 XS - because it's Cool (work it out yourself!)
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RichardD
Marshall


Joined: 13 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an SJ based Blitz 4x4 with 33" tyres and vit engine with detroit locker and it was an immensely capable piece of kit. It was very manoeuvrable, was light enough for 4 people to lift the rear end out the muck and had more than enough power (SU carb) to get it into serious trouble and back out again. In fact it had the same power:weight ratio as a 3.9V8

The downside was lack space for people, storage and ground clearance with no pace for an inboard tank and a rear winch. Going through deep water meant car and driver needed snorkels. On the plus side you could almost consider the car to be the power supply for the winches especially if fitted with a full length skid plate.

Where bigger vehicles win is the torque to pull on huge tyres and bigger ground clearance so you can drive where smaller ones have to winch.

I still reckon that a pair of Blitzes with decent winches and long skid plates would romp something like the Scotia.

At the end of the day it is horse for courses. I once set a treasure hunt quiz at a 4x4 event with the final deciding question being "What is the best 4x4?" the correct answer to which was "Mine!". Some people got very upset think I meant my own Blitz but anyone who answered "Mine" or described their own car got the points Laughing Cool . I stand by my position to this day.

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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6062
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing you have to consider is a lot of offroaders have to be practical on the road too. My sj was a fantastic offroader but there's no way you could use it as an every day car, or in fact as anything other than a vehicle that was used on a limited sized site. 2 people and a rope and it was full and even with the vitara engine it Wasn't pleasant in traffic. There's no way I would want to use it on a busy motorway and you wouldn't pick it for a trek around Africa! Still miss it though, it put a huge smile on your face!
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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:


Where bigger vehicles win is the torque to pull on huge tyres and bigger ground clearance so you can drive where smaller ones have to winch.
.


I disagree with this, run the correct ratio transfer box and diffs and you will have no issues with torque to turn the larger tyres with a 1.6.

Also don't forget to get the diff housings etc. are smaller on SJ/vitara axles so have more ground clearance on smaller tyres, You can also shave the diff and gain nearly and extra 1" of clearance. I have driven through stuff with ease in my sj on 33s that 90s on 35" more aggressive tyres have got stuck in, the narrower axles also help as you don't sit in the ruts of the larger vehicles 90% of the time, giving you yet more ground clearance.

There's ways to run large tyres on small vehicles and maximise ground clearance without the need to lift them stupidly high and keep them reliable. My SJ sits at 5'10" to the top of the roof, I have raised the transfer box so that it no longer hangs below the chassis rails for clearance and tucked the sills up out of the way so that I can run rocksilders yet still have more clearance than there is under standard sj sills. I do want to swap for narrower tyres though as 33x12.50s on such a light vehicle often don't have the grip I would like, so I'm getting some 255/85r16s (33x10") or some 35x10.5" instead for offorading and will keep the 33x12.50s for daily use and green laning. The axles have been uprated with chromoly shafts and CVs and a full float conversion on the rear to cope with the larger tyres.



And I drive this everyday, it will happily cruise at 60-65mph and I always keep up with traffic. Yes it's only got two seats, it's a bit noisy and has limited space but I have enough space to fill it with camping gear and all the tools I need for off-road weekends. I am however building a LWB sj with a similar spec and with 2 extra seats for daily use, longer holidays and a few trips around Europe Very Happy

With some careful thinking and building you can make a small 4x4 that is a very good all-rounder.
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Odometer: 6062
Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Richard regarding the torque. My SJ had a 1.6 vitara engine, rocklobster and vit diffs and there was in theory loads of torque and gear choices. The problem came that in terms of real driving your normally going over rough ground when you get to the bottom of the hill so your going slowly, you then try to climb the big hill and you have to pick a gear. second it was screaming it's head off and had the power to keep the wheels spinning but you just didn't have enough momentum. Third you could get good momentum but the revs weren't high enough to be in the power band to keep the wheels turning. Remember with such low gearing a change in engine speed of say 1000rpm is only a small change in wheel speed. So you'd have to try snatch for second.

Compare that very modified SJ to the RRC that I have now which has stock drivetrain and I can pootle up to the bottom of the hill, floor it, and the V8 will give an instant push to the wheels to get your momentum. I know by todays standards they're not a powerful engine but compared to a small petrol or laggy turbo diesel they're a completely different drive. The old school auto box will happily skip up and down gears on the hill with no noticeable change to the wheels.

The SJ could get in and out of places that bigger trucks couldn't as they just got bellied or stuck but there's no way I could out climb a longer more powerful truck.

I always remember helping 4 landies at kirton that were bogged in mud to the wing mirrors near the lake and a little scrap yard vitara just went a drove around them all. Anyone who hasn't been there it's like custard with skin on. It wobbles up and down when you walk on it, if you break the skin you've had it, your down to your mirrors. You can't get back on it so the only way out is a very long winch pull dragging you through the crust. The vit was light and had bald road tyres so just didn't break the surface.

Which is why we could debate this all day Smile

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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe less reduction in the diffs would have helped, I would only run 5.12 diffs with 35" tyres. I've never struggled on long climbs, but then I've got a good selection of ratios with the twin tboxes Laughing It is a challenge to get the gearing exactly right for the tyre size but with so many tbox and diff ratio options available for SJs you can usually set it up pretty well, I usually run out of grip before I run out of power Laughing

I'm about to start a new offroad only build early next year but I'm sticking by my belief that small and lightweight is the best route to take. it's still Suzuki based but it's getting something a bit more powerful than the 1.6 Twisted Evil

Auto or Manual is one of my next decisions to make for it, The benefit of Autos over manuals that they will seamlessly change gear during a climb like you say.
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RichardD
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last few posts just prove my point, really.

The level of ingenuity and mechanical inventiveness in the 4x4 world seems never ending and given enough time (and money if you're talking about Landrovers) you can achieve pretty much anything Cool

It really comes down to the individual as to what they want/expect from their car.

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Xpajun
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1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to agree with you there Richard...
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ScottieJ
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X3

You can build anything to be the vehicle you want it to be, if you don't need much space then I think Suzuki's or other small solid axle 4x4s are the best base. It's harder to loose weight than it is to start light and keep the weight down.

If you need something bigger then Toyota, Nissan or land rover can all be built into capable vehicles.

Keep it simple, keep the COG down, keep it as light as possible and well balanced, maximise the ground clearance, improve the articulation and gear it to suit the tyre size and you are onto a winner.
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cynic-al
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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Location: scunthorpe


1989 Suzuki SJ

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved my suzuki and am still gutted that it was stolen all this time later. I would love another. I felt the gearing was pretty good as gears 1-5 gave me a walking pace to maybe 15 or 20mph? It was more the fact that the power band in each gear was that narrow you were struggling and i don't like riding the clutch a lot. I've had the same problem in tdi land rovers, first gear there isn't enough speed and second if the rpm drops out of the turbo range you've had it.

I think a V6 efi + auto in a suzuki would be lovely. Not sure what the options are though?

Maybe I'm just not skillful enough and need the machine to make it easy Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The h25 and h27 Suzuki v6 lumps are a good option and not too hard to fit. I'm going for the j20a 2.0 16v 4 pot in my buggy as its not far behind the h25 in the power department and quite a bit lighter. I have the option of the aw4 auto or vitara manual box, both of which I already have. The Aw4 is a really nice ecu contolled box, pretty strong and compatible with a few different transfer box options.
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chicken drumstick
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what happened to the op? Did they ever comment again on what they wanted to do?


Small, medium and big - all have a place. Depends on many things.

E.g.

Depending on the terrain, discipline, use and budget these are all the "right" answer.










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Undiplomatic
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been asking myself the same question as the opening poster.

Andy Haycock's 600kg buggy certainly shows that light weight performs really really well when it comes to being able to go anywhere.

But, looking at the custom buggies that are popular in southern USA states, momentum also gives a big advantage. They're able to do climbs that are far steeper and far longer than can be done by the type of vehicles we go for here. They use 650 bhp motors to accelerate to speed and throw themselves up. Very different to the approach we have here where most people go for torquey but slow heavy diesels. BUT watch one of them USA buggies in mud and they can't get up! Weight holding them back again?
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