New toy becomes a new project ....

RichardD

A couple of weeks ago I bought a 90 trayback competition truck from a guy who used to do our competitions. It had sat in his barn for 4 years occasionally being used to rattle around his farm and as a result it is in need of a little recommissioning. Whilst this is a Landrover project, there's a few reasons why the stuff I'm doing might prove to be interesting to everyone ....

The spec as bought:
300tdi engine with auto box (with remote oil cooler and fan to the rear)
front axle: ashcroft CVs and shafts and ARB locker
rear Axle : ashcroft shafts and end plates with ARB locker
ARB Hi cap compressor
twin 8274 winch setup at the front, no rear winch
in cab winch controls with extra control boxes at each winch
Albright solenoid packs remotely mounted
37" Fedima Siroccos in good condition (no wheels - the ones in the photo are for transport only)
3" lift suspension with extreme shock towers
extra long slip propshafts
Full trayback roll cage
Roll cage front end
Twin battery bank setup
bucket seats and harnesses
Lots of spot lights etc

It's got some chassis rust issues which will be easily fixed and a wee repair or 2 needed on the bulkhead both of which need doing only if I want to MOT it.

I will be running it basically as is but rejigged a little to suit me and to sort out a few 'issues'.

** GED **

RichardD · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:56 am Post subject:

Now I've got the basic post up (sort of copied from the LR section) I can give you an update on where I've got to in the last couple of weeks.

Problems
Chassis looks very nasty but just needs about 6" of plating each side if I can be bothered - it'll do for off road use only.
Wiring: OMG!! red wires used for -ve, some too thin others too thick, twisted together rather than soldered and the winch earth wiring seems to rely on the chassis way too much!
brakes: just needs new pads
Autobox: I got it home and it failed to start (takes ages to get started from cold but fine from warm - glow plugs?) so I rolled it off the trailer and abandoned it. A few days later I tried to move it but it refused to reverse and the gear selector is a little finicky. Eventually I forced it backwards and assumed the brakes to be at fault. Next time it simply would not go backwards so I had to run it up the road to turn it in a big quarry entrance 200m away and drive it back so it was nose in to the garage. It then reversed perfectly so I now suspect ATF levels or a warmth/circulation issue.

Now we come to the first ball-ache, the front winch ...

A long long time ago in a field far far away people thought "one 8274 is good so two must be better". They took a Warn 8274 and installed an extra long drum and replaced the end plate with another Warn 8274 facing backwards.
In theory this was inspired; when spooling out you'd only use one winch but to pull in you could use only one or two for massive extra power. Unfortunately it turned out that they would work against each other and twist itself to death. When I got the car the front winch control wires had been disconnected because it had broken most of the mounting lugs and was basically junk Sad

So, on the basis I know naff all about 8274s, I called up a certain Mr James Marsden at Gigglepin as much to catch up and see if he was coming North next year as to ask his advice. He told me that in no uncertain terms this double 8274 setup was a waste of time and I should simply make one good one out the 2 and keep the rest for spares and then look at upgrading as cash and need allowed. Nice idea. The shonky winch bumper, whilst horrible looking is well solid and drilled for lowline winches and 8274s so I could simply drop in my TDS Goldfish competition winch and away I SPAM only it were that simple!

To get the 8274s out we had to drop the whole bumper and attack it with an angle grinder which is when we found that both gearbox casings were broken and then Yogi measured the tray and realised the Bowmotor2 on the TDS was too wide to fit by over 25mm. Hmmm options were to either spend £300 on a new winch bumper or £100 on hacking this one to suit. Both options would ultimately be a waste of money when/if I replace the chassis. Cost of making one good 8274 would be almost £500 which could be offset by selling an electric winch (I have 2, one comp and one standard) but the TDS is better than a standard 8274. Whilst chatting to Jim I spotted something interesting on his website ... the 2up twin motor conversion for lowline winches.

For only £799 you get to make your normal electric winch into a twin motor set up (although you have to buy a 2nd motor but I've got about 4 spares!). For me this is an ideal solution; It'll drop straight into the old winch bumper saving me over £300 and use the existing twin motor wiring and albrights and give me massive pulling power. It will also swap onto any other vehicle or winch as time goes on.

Now here is where it gets interesting for everyone out there. I'm not going to convert my competition TDS, that one is going on the rear, I'm going to convert the old rear winch from UNB which is a standard TDS winch with a bowmotor1 and put it on the front using one of the motors from the 8274s. This gives me 9500lbs of winching which will not bog down or stall out or get over heated and with massively increased line speed which should match the cars drive assist speed for less than a third of the cost of a Red winch or Gigglepin.

As if that were funky enough, Jim also tells me that he has a couple of upgrade parts for this system (neither of which I can reveal just yet) but I'm going to get them to test and evaluate before anyone else Cool

Why am I so excited? Imagine you are new or newish to the competition scene and you want to step up to the next level which means upgrading your winch to be much more powerful and faster but the cost is huge. Imagine, for the first time, being able to upgrade your existing lowline electric winch in stages rather than having to buy a whole new setup

(assuming you don't have an 8274 already which cost £1500+ new or £750 used)
Gigglepin from £3600 inc
Red Winch from £2800 inc
2up £1000 inc (£800 plus an extra motor and Albright)

I've ordered my kit today and I'm going to write it up here - fitting the conversion which they claim takes only half an hour, fitting it to the car and then using it. Once I get the upgrades I can then let you all know just how that works out as well.

Of course, having a great twin motor set up will make the car massively more competitive so at Scotia 2015 I expect to finish and not be last Very Happy

RichardD

RichardD · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:50 am Post subject:

Here's the twin 8274 as seen from the front after being removed

Xpajun · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject:

RichardD · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject:

A good question.

What you have is one working as per normal but the other is having to work backwards. This means that the right hand one (the one running backwards) is constantly working against the brake and gears of the 'normal' one.

When spooling out you have to make sure that only the normal one runs or they will stall each other out and break shafts. Even in normal use you had to use one only and then bring the 2nd in when you needed extra oomph so in normal running you were using one motor to drive 2 gearboxes!

Do you see ANY twin 8274 setups like this being used on ANY serious competition motor these days? There is a reason for this - look at the mounting lugs which have been ripped off by the 2 winches twisting away from each other.

All twin motor winches currently available use 2 motors on the one gearbox.

teamidris · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject:

I think the motors might be biased to one direction? But if the brake were changed for an air disk brake like the red, I think it would be okay. It's not ideal, but I don't think its a complete minger of an idea. Twin-tops hate the centre shaft, but this one isn't stressing in the same way, as it is a single top winch - twice Smile

RichardD · Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject:

They worked to a point. Jim, and others, explained why they eat themselves and its to do with the way 8274s are designed. I've never used one so I don't know but in any case the spares to repair each winch to reuse as-is is over £500 and that's before one fits updated anything.

Good used 8274s sell for £650 or more so I can rebuild both to standard using used parts and make £500.

winchman · Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject:

Having repaired a few 8274s I do wonder why people do this?
The 8274 is a very basic but good winch dating back to the 1950s, its a very basic agricultural design, only has one bearing it the rest are bushes, but I cant knock it as it does a good job.
I feel best upgrade is new bushes and a good motor.
People often forget these are only rated for so many pulls per hour.

RichardD · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:04 am Post subject:

I'm waiting for a wee email from those Gigglepin guys for a fuller explanation but it seems to be more to do with the way the main shaft and gears work rather than just the brake.

We're 'restoring' both 8274s with one going on Yogi's Tomcat and the other becoming my rear winch (the tray is set up for it already). I'll then use my competition TDS winch for the front for which I've bought another Bowmotor 2 to match. This will leave me my standard TDS winch which I can keep as a spare or maybe fit onto my 110.

Having sorted out the transfer box, the reverse gear issue and the starting problem (it seems putting fuel in the tank helps!) All that is needed to go playing is to mount the gear selector in a better and more solid position and get the winches fitted.

Photos to follow when I can get near the truck in daylight.

RichardD · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject:

It's got it's proper boots on and its looking braw.

Xpajun · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:36 pm Post subject:

Any particular reason the front ones are on backwards?

RichardD · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject:

Installed error? I'll check the rotation marks when I get home

Xpajun · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject:

Normal rotation is designed to push the mud away from the centre of the tyre...

I often wonder if you would get better grip having them reversed so the mud is compacted into the centre...

The reason I asked Wink

RichardD · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:59 am Post subject:

The Volvo 6x6 and 4x4s I used to have all came from the Swedish Army with the directional tyres fitted with the rear ones going forwards and the front going backwards. The rational being that it aided reversing in slippy conditions but had the effect of ruining steering precision.

In our world I suspect the difference is marginal and I'm usually wanting to go forwards Wink

Next time I move it I'll have to swap them over.

RichardD · Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:32 am Post subject:

Yesterday I had skiveritis so Yogi and I got stuck into getting the 90 ready for SWATC at Drumclog on the 28th of Dec.

Fist job was to reinstall the gear selector. I'd bought a specialist bracket but in the end we cut a hole in the t/f box access panel and bolted it down and it worked perfectly. Well, when I say perfectly, it worked but a bit more of that later.

We swapped over the front wheels, as noted, and went out for a play in the field to check that everything worked. The transfer box is still a little finnicky to get from high back into low but that is not going to happen too often. The ARBs worked perfectly and getting the car a bit stuck without the aid of winches let me test the balance and grip levels. All in all it is nice, it doesn't slip as well as the Buggy so I have to work the steering more but the turning circle is miles better.

First I went across the burn and up a slope with such ease it wasn't funny and then turned around to go back across but on a deep bit. Where the Creepy crawlers would have floated across the much the Fedimas dug in and I was beached. Normally I'd have steered downslope and gunned it to slip the car sideways , driven along the burn until I could turn out and up again. I sort of managed that but only by mangling the bank but eventually I got the car completely cross axled and was able to test the ARBs which were brilliant.

Once back across the burn we tackled a bog run and half way through I got stuck and then lost all drive! The auto box was making off gear whizzing noises like it was not quite engaging gears. I could get D but not R. I killed the engine and once restarted I could get all the gears but selecting them was a bit hit and miss. Yogi winched me back and eventually I got Drive and we got back to base.

After an afternoon of domestic duties Yogi, Fraser, Guido and I reconvened to check out the 2up winch conversion, build it up and test fit it to the winch bumper. Guido has one of my old vehicles (a 90 of sorts) which also has an auto box and he's also a mechanic. He dived under the 90 and checked the cable adjustment and found that things were a little loose and not quite lined up. Once sorted it felt a lot better but I won't know for sure until I run it out again.

The 2up conversion was pretty straightforward but the bumper needs a decent amount of cutting and welding to make it fit perfectly.

ben_uk · Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:52 am Post subject:

Nice project. Very Happy

I look forward to seeing how you get on with the winch. We got one in at work about 6 months ago to have a look at. I thought it seemed very cheaply made and was skeptical as to how the rubber drive belt would hold up to competition use.

We still havent got round to fitting it to one of my bosses vehicles for testing, but were hoping to when we go back to work in a few weeks.

A few months after we got one I saw Gigglepin were/are the UK distributor. I was pretty surprised by how much their charging for them. Over here there less than half there price and I'm sure there all made in China.

But if they work well and can hold up to competition use then they might be a nice cheaper alternative! Smile

RichardD · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:21 am Post subject:

The belt is not rubber, it is Kevlar and easily as tough as those used as drive belts for Harley Davidsons.

The cost here is probably higher due to the 12,000 mile delivery distance.

I'm still having auto box issues so have not had time to fit and test.

Xpajun · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject:

jeremy · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject:

Harley might have to re-think that soon then, Looking at the size of some yank people.

Xpajun · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject:

^^^^

^^^^

Winnet · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:37 pm Post subject:

An interesting thread Richard.

G.