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Fuel Pump Advice please :)
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Fuel Pump Advice please :) Reply with quote

Hi All,

The fuel pump (mechanical) has died on my 89 Samurai.

The Suzuki main dealer have told me that there is no way Suzuki can supply me with one of these so they recommended finding an after market version.

I found this on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-Samurai-Mechanical-Fuel-Pump-Brand-New-15100-83010-/170724865750?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27bffeb6d6

but it doesn't really look like mine.

the other option is an electric fuel pump, is this a painful route to go ? I am guessing i need a blanking plate to cover the hole where the mechanical pump is removed.

open to suggestions Smile
Thanks all [/url]
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teamidris
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Odometer: 3372
Location: Staffordshire UK



PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've changed to electrical pump on a rangy V8. I made a bit of a plate to cover the hole in the engine. The pump is best with something like a durite or SU that gives a fixed pressure at around 5 psi. They only pump when you use fuel. (like the mechanical).
I've fitted a high-ish flow facet redtop and it's not working out well for me! It does 7psi. I have too much fuel Confused

The mechanical is probably best for almost everything that has a hole for one, diesel or petrol. Hopefully the one you are looking at fits your cam shaft? I'd certainly steer you in that direction for simplicity of your fuel system.

__________________________________
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC3l3zoaCabKrgBSULSV1YgA
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Teamidris!

If i can find a suitable mechanical version then I will go that route , I don't fancy adding another electrical system to my Samurai if I don't have to Smile
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rhinoman
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Odometer: 3277
Location: Brinkworth, Wilts



PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried your local auto factors?
__________________________________
2000 Vitara 4u2, 3+3 lift, 33s, winch, safari rack, steel front axle and 5:83 R&Ps, LWB brakes
1986 SJ413K Pickup, 1.6 conversion
2006 Jimny JLX+, stock
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did go to the local place who were really having difficulty finding one from all their suppliers, Suzuki just said a plain old " no way " but I found one today on ebay which comes from france for a reasonable 28 quid ! should be with me next week Very Happy
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wizzed the pump off and it fell to bits ( isn't it meant to stay in one piece? i haven't had one of these off before )
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Help me out here please guys ( if I can explain myself properly )

The pic above is my knackard fuel pump, there was oil ******* out all over the head before i took it off, and the many bits of it you can see in the photo is how it looked when I took the two nuts holding it on away. So I think we can agree it has seen better days.

I got a new pump, had to make a gasket from gasket paper as it didn't come with one, but no biggie. When I was originally broken down in the petrol station the breakdown guy who stopped to have a look said that when i get the new one I should be able to feel the suction from the inlet pipe ( I got nothing).

when I connected it all up I turned the engine over for about a minute , nothing happened. Took the petrol feed pipe off and it was pretty dry.

last bit of info that is important, I drove it back from Slovenia last week ( about 1000 miles in 24 hours ish ) and because my petrol gauge has a mind of its own I would drive about 100 miles then fill it back up to the "click" then drive on again to make sure I didnt run out of fuel.

The last time I filled it up was in Belgium about 100 miles from the ferry, after I got off the ferry I went home (I can see the passport control from my bedroom , it is pretty close ) , drove half a mile the next day pulled into the petrol station and turned the car off. when I came back out to start it ..... nothing.

I have no idea what is now wrong , the little rod thing that pushes the pump hasnt fallen out by the way.If I rock the car I can hear fuel slooshing about in the tank , god know how much


SO !

I have either:

Run out of Fuel ( how ? I squeezed 9 Litres in at the last fill up)

Someone has stolen my fuel in the night

my failing petrol pump decide to dump an entire tank of fuel into my carb as a last goodbye.

I have run out of fuel naturally in which case something horrible has happened as 50 litres for 100 miles is a little excessive even for a Samurai


Somebody help me out here ! Smile
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quick update,

Just to make sure I had fuel I squeezed a gallon of fuel into the tank.

turned the engine over with the new fuel pump on .....nothing

turned the engine over with the pipe that runs from the pump to the carb disconnected , nothing came out.

new fuel pump is all nice and tight, looks like a nice solid piece of kit too .

I am stumped.
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ianc2051
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Odometer: 174
Location: Weare Giffard, N. Devon



PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'd do two things - with the new pump in your hand, make and secure the pipe connections to the pump but undo and pull off the inlet feed pipe at the carburettor - then operate the pump by hand to see if you are getting a decent pulse of fuel.

Also see if you can see or feel the cam which operates the pump arm which is a machined part of the main camshaft. Ascertain if it is worn and therefore incapable of oscillating the arm.

As I write I've thought of more things! I'm not sure if this is possible but I'll offer it up just in case. When the pump is offered up to the cutaway in the head, it may be possible to place the arm so it is tucked away underneath the cam therefore the oscillation will not occur when it is rotating.

Is there a chance of a fuel blockage between the tank and the pump - for example a blocked fuel filter?
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Smile

ok to address your points one by one, I tried the pump by hand with the pipes attached of course , nothing came out ( there are little arrows on the nozzles as well so I am quite certain I have the pipes hooked up correctly, and they are different sizes )

there is a little stubby arm type thing that i can feel ( cant really get a good angle to see it ) inside the head that I guess moves the pump , this stubby thing also moved in and out when I gave the key a quick flick just to get the cam to turn.

I made sure I put the pump on as straight as possible to avoid getting the pump arm trapped under anything, I am not sure how it would feel if it went on wrong but i was able to do the nuts up almost all the way by hand then a couple of turns with the ratchet to finish it off ( I am not sure but it seems like it would be a lot harder to put on if something wasnt lined up properly , just a guess !)

to the last point , which is sounding more likely assuming the pump is ok
I am having difficulty finding the fuel filter , Mr Haynes says it is near the rear axle ,



but its getting dark and its a bit muddy under there!
is it possible that the car can go from full and normal running speed to nothing from a blockage in the fuel filter then ?
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK!
the picture above from the haynes manual shows the fuel filter.

I slid under the car in the road, and took a picture of the same area
this was the result !



I have looked from tank to carb and I cant see the filter anywhere....
I will check again in the light tomorrow

Sad
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another update to narrow things down Smile

The mouthful of petrol I just sample confirmed no blockage between the tank and the delivery pipe that goes intot the fuel pump.

as i thought yesterday while hunting around in the dark , the last person to mess about with this car seems to have forgone little details like a fuel filter and just put a piece of petrol pipe between the two copper fuel pipes near the back of the chassis Rolling Eyes

I have a new filter coming to the spares place this afternoon.

the cyclinder of metal that touches the cam to operate the pump hasnt fallen out and moves freely

if I attach the petrol feed pipe to the pump and either pump it by hand , or connect it and turn the engine over it draws no fuel.......

could it be that this brand new pump is just duff?

the original item has screws all over it and looks like it can be serviced , this new one is totally sealed from the manufacturer it looks like.

other than trying to get another pump somewhere else I am not sure where to go next with this,

If i have missed anything obvious please let me know
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nejtun wrote:
Another update to narrow things down Smile


could it be that this brand new pump is just duff?





It wouldn't be the first or last time this has happened - If new get your money back or a replacement
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think i will , just wanted to eliminate any silly thing I might have missed first.
Jimnybits have a much better looking one , £75 delivered though! but if it works i will just suck it up Smile
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ianc2051
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Odometer: 174
Location: Weare Giffard, N. Devon



PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could I ask you to go on *Bay and look at item No. 191195547761 - does your new pump look like this? If it does I'm a little mystified by what you have described in the paragraph below.

"there is a little stubby arm type thing that i can feel ( cant really get a good angle to see it ) inside the head that I guess moves the pump , this stubby thing also moved in and out when I gave the key a quick flick just to get the cam to turn".

Now I confess to not owning a Samurai anymore and I sold my sj410 some time ago but remain a Suzuki fan so I regularly come on to this site and others. My recollection of the fuel pumps on both types which are basically similar in operation is that "the stubby arm thing" should be attached to the pump mechanism and not remain in the head. Is it possible that the original pump which has broken up has the arm still left in the head? I ask this because all that should be their (in my mind) is a small cam machined on to main camshaft which oscillates the arm you can see on the *Bay item I've asked you to look at.

Re the fuel filter - it should be located on the chassis rail immediately inboard of the drivers side rear wheel. Normally very visable if it isn't plastered in mud.
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zukmeista
Just got MTs


Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Odometer: 176
Location: WHANGAREI,N.Z



PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try filling up the float bowl on the carby with petrol then start it, I had the same problem after I fitted a new pump. Wouldn't go, couldn't get fuel to come out of the outlet pipe when cranking but did the above and it was away with no problems.
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ianc2051 wrote:
Could I ask you to go on *Bay and look at item No. 191195547761 - does your new pump look like this?


Hi Ianc , yup that's mine, if you have seen any of my other posts my descriptions of things are pretty terrible Smile so i tend to use a lot of pictures

the " stubby arm thing " that i was talking about is the rod that slides in and out of the head operated by the camshaft

As for the fuel filter,( I popped a photo up above for where it should be ) someone who had this before me has by passed the fuel filter completely with a length of hose, I bought a new filter yesterday and will pop it in.

Thanks for your Responses Ianc Smile
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zukmeista wrote:
Try filling up the float bowl on the carby with petrol then start it, I had the same problem after I fitted a new pump. Wouldn't go, couldn't get fuel to come out of the outlet pipe when cranking but did the above and it was away with no problems.


Sounds like a plan! going to try this later !

cheers ! Smile
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rhinoman
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Odometer: 3277
Location: Brinkworth, Wilts



PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to prime the pump on my 413 before I could get it to pull any fuel through.
__________________________________
2000 Vitara 4u2, 3+3 lift, 33s, winch, safari rack, steel front axle and 5:83 R&Ps, LWB brakes
1986 SJ413K Pickup, 1.6 conversion
2006 Jimny JLX+, stock
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nejtun wrote:
zukmeista wrote:
Try filling up the float bowl on the carby with petrol then start it, I had the same problem after I fitted a new pump. Wouldn't go, couldn't get fuel to come out of the outlet pipe when cranking but did the above and it was away with no problems.


Sounds like a plan! going to try this later !

cheers ! Smile


tried this , it fired up until it used the stuff in the bowl then died Sad
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rhinoman wrote:
I had to prime the pump on my 413 before I could get it to pull any fuel through.


took the pipe from where it plugs onto the carb , sucked on it till i got a mouth full of fuel, started it up , ran for a few secs , then died, took the outlet pipe off the pump and cranked the engine , still not drawing fuel up. Sad
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Xpajun
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Odometer: 3245



1988 Mitsubishi Shogun

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duff pump...
return for refund/exchange before you get it to a state where it won't be accepted...
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ianc2051
Just got MTs


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Odometer: 174
Location: Weare Giffard, N. Devon



PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right - when the pump is removed, there is an actuating rod held in the side of the cylinder head - the sj410 is different as the plunger on the pump has direct contact with the cam lobe on the camshaft. I forgot that I still have a Samurai manual on CD and I checked.

I would like to know if the rod in the head oscillates back and forth when you turn the engine over which I would do by hand (socket and ratchet handle on the bottom pulley bolt). If it does then this eliminates a knackered cam.

I have been re-reading all your comments again and it occurred to me that because you have been removing and refitting your fuel filler cap so many times because of a guaging problem, has the breather in the fuel cap become blocked somehow? Might be worth a trial start with the cap removed - weak I know, but it's worth a go.
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ianc2051 wrote:

I would like to know if the rod in the head oscillates back and forth when you turn the engine over which I would do by hand (socket and ratchet handle on the bottom pulley bolt). If it does then this eliminates a knackered cam.

I have been re-reading all your comments again and it occurred to me that because you have been removing and refitting your fuel filler cap so many times because of a guaging problem, has the breather in the fuel cap become blocked somehow? Might be worth a trial start with the cap removed - weak I know, but it's worth a go.


the rod does move with the cam, I checked this with the pump off. so I guess that is ok?

I dont think I have any problem with fuel flow from tank to carb , as I have had one mouthful of petrol ( yuck !) when i was making sure it was unobstructed to the pump , then another tasty mouthful when i took the feed off the carb itself with everything else connected up including the pump, and got the fuel to come through with minimum effort ( especially as i wanted as little petrol to touch my tongue as possible :p )

I am considering saying "sod it" and putting an electric pump on, but I need my car midweek, havent done one of these before ( how hard can it be ) and not sure if it is a good idea for the standard carb as from reading the forums it seems as though people only go for the electric pump when using SU or other after market carbs or for engine swaps.

any advice if an electric pump is a good idea for the standard carb is very welcome.

my other option is the jimnybits pump which is pretty pricey or a second hand one from someone breaking sammys.

regardless of whether Mister-auto from eBay give me a refund, I dont want a replacement part from them if they can send me out a ****** part on my first purchase, they are on a 100% failure rate for me at the mo as far as i am concerned....swines.
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Darrell
Off-Road Guru


Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Odometer: 1580
Location: South Oxfordshire. In the doghouse.


1987 Suzuki SJ413

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been keeping an eye on this thread hoping I could help(not sure I can though)
The only thing I'm a little confused on is that your old pump looks like a 410 one, IE it's screwed together. As said the 410 one runs directly onto the a cam lobe and has a longer arm. I have never seen a screw together type pump fitted to a Samurai and am wondering if somebody has botched something together in the past (as it fell to bits).
Just for more info the rod pushing the pump arm should be 54mm long (just in case somebody has been cutting)


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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"botch" is a good word for the things that have been done to my car before i had it , i was hoping i was over the last of them.

the new replacement pump is this one



i still think the new pump is just unluckily duff though. also the one from jimnybits has a breather on it , where the one i took off and the one in this picture doesnt seem to have.

If you think the jimnybits one is a good idea to get then please say so as it ought to last a while at least !

here it is http://www.jimnybits.co.uk/shop/sj-/-samurai/se...mp/prod_1352.html

while i was looking for that pump i also found the pump I removed , which confirmed what you said and is listed as a 410 pump !

I would love to meet the charleton that worked on my car before, this new issue is the least of the things i have fixed :@ :@ :@
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as for the arm being 54 mm long i will take it out and measure it in the daylight, though from the bodged up crap i have had to rectify so far I don't think anything as delicate as "cutting" was in the last mechanics repertoire, so hopefully it is untouched.
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Twiss
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Odometer: 6438
Location: Birkirkara, Malta


1993 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think for all the hassle with this an electric fuel pump would have been well worth it!

They aren't that complicated on wiring and I've not really had any problems with mine
the 2nd hand relay i used gave up, always keep at least 1 spare relay in the truck now Wink

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Twiss
'95 Samurai 416 16v
'92 Maruti Gypsy MG410
www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk
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Nejtun
Winch Assistant


Joined: 12 May 2014
Odometer: 97
Location: United Kingdom


1989 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If only I had known what a pain it was going to be I would have definitely gone with the electric, however the eBay store were very good about the refund and I have one on the way from Jimnybits.

on the plus side I know my fuel system a lot better now.
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Twiss
Mud Obsessed


Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Odometer: 6438
Location: Birkirkara, Malta


1993 Suzuki Samurai

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my 16v engine hasn't got a mechanical fuel pump so i didn't really have a choice anyway Wink
still £35 ebay special pump is going strong

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Twiss
'95 Samurai 416 16v
'92 Maruti Gypsy MG410
www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk
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